Turkey opens its borders for refugees to go to Europe.

[Heathen Hammer]

If these people prefer theocratic governments, then what are they doing trying to enter Europe? Nor would it make sense for Europeans to let in jihadist sympathizers.
Again, if you claim to be a refugee, there is no reason not to come back home after combat is done. Not to mention that there isn't exactly much evidence that proves that all these people are even from Syria.
Erdogan, as well as Gulf States and other countries that backed so-called "rebels" were responsible for the current state of Syria to a much bigger extent then Syrian government, which was mainly responding to externally-backed threats.

[AnthoniusII]

I could have agreed with the "detached from reality" comment, but thankfully my memory of history is not erased at the beginning of every new decade.

When are you people gonna stop looking at things from your own political stance? Why do you think an authoritarion secular government should be more attractive than an authoritarian theocratic government? That's your preference, would be likely mine too, but not theirs. Most people did not fled Idlib under years long rebel control, now they are fleeing en masse, they clearly don't see the route towards peaceful Assadland a plausible choice.

The summary is, there is a proven to be authoritarian government who killed rebels and civilians alike for years, that gives millions of people who refuse to live under its banner a solid justification to flee the country, there might be opportunist inviduals, but we can't ignore this general justification and label all of them as wellfare immigrants.

Assad is responsible for the start of this, and this was a big thing from the beginning, it started with high ranking officers defecting and turning hundreds of urban centers into their fortresses, destruction and refugee crisis was inevitable even without foreign interferance and with a quicker victory.

Assad was/is and must be a problem of Syrians to solve. I ask you...Do you suport the army coop against Erdogan 3 years ago? They did not like Erdogan either. Would be a fair reason for countries arround Turkey to suport those men against Erdogan? Each people has its own right to solve its domestic problems of its own, not with external intervations. With your prospective all US attempt against other countries goverments were fair. Was it fair against Aliente in Chile? Was it fair against Greece in 1967? If its fair then wait the momment that major powers wont need Turkey's aid and deside to brake it in to pieces like they did with Ottoman Empire. And the funny thing will be that this will be justified as "best for the people of Turkey"... Would you like such a scenario? IF NOT why suport Turkey's intervantion in Syria's internal problems?

[ioannis76]

And it seems that the Sultan is getting impatient. Apparently, his plans aren't working:

Erdogan to Greeks: Do not forget you might be asking for help and mercy in the future

http://en.protothema.gr/erdogan-to-g...in-the-future/

A quick question is, how can one forget en event that may happen in the future. One forgets events that happened in the past.
It's really funny to hear members of the turkish government threaten others.
We all remember the funny incident when Erdogan was threatening the USA with an "ottoman slap" (yes, the same USA he is now requesting Patriot missiles from).

[PointOfViewGun]

And it seems that the Sultan is getting impatient. Apparently, his plans aren't working:
http://en.protothema.gr/erdogan-to-g...in-the-future/
A quick question is, how can one forget en event that may happen in the future. One forgets events that happened in the past.
It's really funny to hear members of the turkish government threaten others.
We all remember the funny incident when Erdogan was threatening the USA with an "ottoman slap" (yes, the same USA he is now requesting Patriot missiles from).

The statement in question was made in a speech by Erdoğan where he showed the following picture claiming that it depicts Greek children that found refuge in Syria during the Axis occupation of Greece. He stated the following:

The Greeks, who, to not allow refugees into their country, tried everything from drowning in the sea to gunning them down, should not forget that one day they might need this mercy.

More on the matter:

The Greek refugees who fled to the Middle East in WW2

The influx of more than a million refugees and migrants to the Greek islands in the past year has stirred up difficult memories for a dwindling group who followed the same route during World War Two, but in reverse.
As German and Italian troops occupied Greece, tens of thousands of people fled by sea to refugee camps in the Middle East.
At the end of the war, they began heading home. Most made it back safely, but for some the journey ended in tragedy.
"An event like this is hard to forget," says Eleni Karavelatzi. "It leaves you seared with scars and makes you bitter forever."

[goro]

Plenty of Syrian refugees in athens that enjoy greek hospitality to respond to the pic posted above. Apart from WW2 syrians helped greeks armenians and other people during the genocides commited by the turkish state before ww2 so Turkey is a treasure of information on refugees.

Apart from that the rest he said is empty words backed by no evidence just propaganda as usual. There are no refugees in that wave. They are being protected in turkey as we speak. If they want to abandon turkey its for financial purposes.

[ioannis76]

This is the video that was shown to the leaders of the EU by the Greek government:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9hf...ture=emb_title

It pretty much exposes Turkey for what it is, a country that is using people like pawns, in typical ottoman siege fashion (first they would send the vazivouzouks, practically prisoners of war, outcasts etc, in order to tire out the enemy's defenses).

@PointofView, no Erdogan spoke about the future, not the past. Does he believe that the Greeks are going to become refugees in the near future?
Don't forget that Greece offered shelter to Turks, as well. Those fleeing the current Turkish regime.

[Heathen Hammer]

The Greek refugees who fled to the Middle East in WW2

"Oh no! Quick, open the borders and let millions of undocumented people through our borders!"

[ioannis76]

I was talking, the other day, about a possible buffer zone, inside Turkey, by means of which the influx of refugees can be contained. It seems that others have worked on this idea as well:



This could work. A 30 km wide zone inside Turkey, supervised by Greece and Bulgaria, both EU countries, might actually be the answer to the problem.

[AnthoniusII]

The statement in question was made in a speech by Erdoğan where he showed the following picture claiming that it depicts Greek children that found refuge in Syria during the Axis occupation of Greece. He stated the following:





More on the matter:

The Greek refugees who fled to the Middle East in WW2

You do not know history and its obvius.
The Greeks that crossed Turkey in WW2 were 4000 soldiers that crossed Evros river to avoid captured by Bulgarians. Turkey agreed with British to sent them in Palestine because it needed allied troops able to fight!
But the picture yoyu post EMBARASE YOUR COUNTRY because it was taken in 1920 when Turkey alleiminated Armenians and Assyrians but 200000 Cilician Greeks crossed the Syrian Borders that back then was a French occupied zone! Its true SYRIANS RESCUED GREEKS BUT THEY RESCUED THEM FROM TURKS!!! Conclusion, Before post something that will embarase you and your nation cross examine your sourses!
One detail of today...Turkey sents to Greek Borders 1000 Police Commandos inorder to prevent Greek armed forces to push back ilegal immigrants. That may means two things :
1st They will open fire to immigrants to boost their will to cross the Greek borders to save their lives.
2nd They will open fire to Greek armed Forces that will attempt to prevent those immigrants to cross Greek borders.
If the 1st scenario will prevail it will be a crime against humanity.
If the 2nd scenario will prevail that will automaticaly become a war between Greece and Turkey.

The question that emerges is simple. IsTurkey 100% sure that will win a war against Greece or it will end up with a split country with occupation zones like in 1919?

[PointOfViewGun]

Plenty of Syrian refugees in athens that enjoy greek hospitality to respond to the pic posted above. Apart from WW2 syrians helped greeks armenians and other people during the genocides commited by the turkish state before ww2 so Turkey is a treasure of information on refugees.
Apart from that the rest he said is empty words backed by no evidence just propaganda as usual. There are no refugees in that wave. They are being protected in turkey as we speak. If they want to abandon turkey its for financial purposes.

How are refugees in Turkey protected? At what number of refugees does it stop being viable?

I was talking, the other day, about a possible buffer zone, inside Turkey, by means of which the influx of refugees can be contained. It seems that others have worked on this idea as well:
This could work. A 30 km wide zone inside Turkey, supervised by Greece and Bulgaria, both EU countries, might actually be the answer to the problem.

Does this mean you fully support Turkey's operation to create a buffer zone in Syria now? Because you argued against it for so long...

You do not know history and its obvius.
The Greeks that crossed Turkey in WW2 were 4000 soldiers that crossed Evros river to avoid captured by Bulgarians. Turkey agreed with British to sent them in Palestine because it needed allied troops able to fight!
But the picture yoyu post EMBARASE YOUR COUNTRY because it was taken in 1920 when Turkey alleiminated Armenians and Assyrians but 200000 Cilician Greeks crossed the Syrian Borders that back then was a French occupied zone! Its true SYRIANS RESCUED GREEKS BUT THEY RESCUED THEM FROM TURKS!!! Conclusion, Before post something that will embarase you and your nation cross examine your sourses!
One detail of today...Turkey sents to Greek Borders 1000 Police Commandos inorder to prevent Greek armed forces to push back ilegal immigrants. That may means two things :
1st They will open fire to immigrants to boost their will to cross the Greek borders to save their lives.
2nd They will open fire to Greek armed Forces that will attempt to prevent those immigrants to cross Greek borders.
If the 1st scenario will prevail it will be a crime against humanity.
If the 2nd scenario will prevail that will automaticaly become a war between Greece and Turkey.
The question that emerges is simple. IsTurkey 100% sure that will win a war against Greece or it will end up with a split country with occupation zones like in 1919?

Where can I meet these ninja commandos of Turkey that you guys have been claiming about for years? Somehow they move around in thousands or hundreds but we never see them.

[bekiristein]

https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/03/...leeing-syrians

[goro]

How are refugees in Turkey protected? At what number of refugees does it stop being viable?

They are not being shot at turkey as far as i know. Though the article above claims otherwise. A refugee's main priority is survival and escape from war. If they want a better life in europe apply for asylum. Apart from that most of the people at the border are not syrian. It's mostly Afghan, Iranian etc migrants. Greece has no obligation to shelter them unless turkey starts shooting them so then they will again be refugees. Lebanon houses 1.5 million syrian refugees according to figures and its a country of about 7 million so turkey refugee situation is a long way from not being viable. Also your sultan amidst an epidemic who many say is about to become a global pandemic encourages thousands of people to cross illegally to greece and subsequently to europe with no screening and not a care in the world if they are infected.

[ioannis76]

Does this mean you fully support Turkey's operation to create a buffer zone in Syria now? Because you argued against it for so long...

Since when does support for one buffer zone in one place imply support for another buffer zone in another place?

Again, the "refugees" coming to Greece are almost always NOT Syrian. If there are 1 million refugees from Idlib (which I highly doubt), then they certainly didn't come to Greece.
The buffer zone in western Turkey, however, is essential, because either Turkey cannot control its borders, which is bad, or it can control its borders but is deliberately attempting to blackmail the EU, by weaponising masses of people from Algeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc, whom it sends to the EU in order to destabilize it.
Consequently, the EU has to respond to that. Cutting funds to Turkey would also be a good first response. Furthermore, EU countries (I am referring specifically to GERMANY here), should cease technology transfer to Turkey, as well as sales of military hardware and military hardware components.

[PointOfViewGun]

They are not being shot at turkey as far as i know. Though the article above claims otherwise. A refugee's main priority is survival and escape from war. If they want a better life in europe apply for asylum. Apart from that most of the people at the border are not syrian. It's mostly Afghan, Iranian etc migrants. Greece has no obligation to shelter them unless turkey starts shooting them so then they will again be refugees. Lebanon houses 1.5 million syrian refugees according to figures and its a country of about 7 million so turkey refugee situation is a long way from not being viable. Also your sultan amidst an epidemic who many say is about to become a global pandemic encourages thousands of people to cross illegally to greece and subsequently to europe with no screening and not a care in the world if they are infected.

So, give me a number. How many millions of refugees in Turkey is the number to watch for? Lebanon surely houses 1.5 million Syrian refugees according to UN. Turkey houses 4.1 million refugees with Syrian making up a lot of it. Does this mean Lebanon shows an example of how many refugees can be properly hosted by a country of that size? Or are they and the refugees in it are in an even worse position? Refugees in Lebanon have two options to flee to; Syria or Israel.

European nations had every chance to actually chip in and help Turkey host refugees in south eastern Turkey. They pledged only 6 billion Euros back in 2016. Meanwhile, Germany spent 23 billion Euros just for one million people by mid last year. If they don't care about Turkey acting as their bodyguard for a fraction of what they spend then I'm not sure why Turkey should care about the virus.

What Turkey is doing is kinda what the Greek defence minister of the time Panos Kammenos did back in 2015. He threatened Europe with a flood of migrants. There is an important difference though. Kammenos made his threats to EU to get them to bail out Greece.

Back from 2015:

Greece threatens to unleash wave of migrants on the rest of Europe 'including Isis jihadists'

Greece has threatened the rest of Europe with a “wave of economic migrants” that could include Isis militants if the country is allowed to go bust by international lenders.

In a shock escalation of the rhetoric surrounding bailout talks in Brussels, the Greek defence minister Panos Kammenos vowed: “If they strike us, we will strike them.”

European creditors told Athens to stop “wasting time” putting forward its proposals for economic reforms pledged by the new left-wing Syriza-led coalition government.

If an agreement cannot be reached, the International Monetary Fund has said it will discontinue payments on a £172 billion bailout, forcing Greece to go bust and crash out of the eurozone. Mr Kammenos said: “If they deal a blow to Greece, then they should know the the migrants will get papers to go to Berlin.”

“If Europe leaves us in the crisis, we will flood it with migrants, and it will be even worse for Berlin if in that wave of millions of economic migrants there will be some jihadists of the Islamic State too.

Mr Kammenos, who is also the leader of Syriza’s minor coalition partners Independent Greeks, specifically referred to the Schengen area of free travel in his threat, and said his country would give all comers papers so they “could go straight to Berlin”.

Since when does support for one buffer zone in one place imply support for another buffer zone in another place?

Again, the "refugees" coming to Greece are almost always NOT Syrian. If there are 1 million refugees from Idlib (which I highly doubt), then they certainly didn't come to Greece.
The buffer zone in western Turkey, however, is essential, because either Turkey cannot control its borders, which is bad, or it can control its borders but is deliberately attempting to blackmail the EU, by weaponising masses of people from Algeria, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc, whom it sends to the EU in order to destabilize it.
Consequently, the EU has to respond to that. Cutting funds to Turkey would also be a good first response. Furthermore, EU countries (I am referring specifically to GERMANY here), should cease technology transfer to Turkey, as well as sales of military hardware and military hardware components.

Since when they are proposed to be setup under supposedly similar conditions. It's the whole point of your buffer zone argument. You're trying to avoid standing by a principle given that it exposes hypocrisy. Thank you for making it obvious.

[ioannis76]

It seems that Turkey has decided to lift the siege of the Hellenic border (for now):

https://syria.liveuamap.com/en/2020/...ounced-a-while

I guess you are the only one here who sees it that way, for your own reasons, of course.
The only thing that was proved from this whole circus on the border, was the petty-mindedness of the turkish government.

[Gromovnik]

OK, about this buffer zone plan: why would Turkey allow the occupation of their territory?

[Kyriakos]

OK, about this buffer zone plan: why would Turkey allow the occupation of their territory?

It is important for security, much like turkish occupation of syrian territory

[swabian]

@Ioannis:

Consequently, the EU has to respond to that. Cutting funds to Turkey would also be a good first response.

Erdogan probably doesn't do it because of money, it's because he's a sourpuss because nobody in the West bombed Assad's marauders to shreds. Erdogan is a massive douchebag but he is not the biggest problem here: it's Putin. As long as Putin supports Assad, nobody will do anything of any consequence, so this crap goes on and on. Putin has good ties to Assad and he is worried that Russia loses it's influence in the ME with the last :wub:s there.

[AnthoniusII]

Where can I meet these ninja commandos of Turkey that you guys have been claiming about for years? Somehow they move around in thousands or hundreds but we never see them.

Do you call Suleyman Soylu a lier?
Carefull because everyone claims that Erdogan's goverment a lier faces JAIL.

[PointOfViewGun]

Do you call Suleyman Soylu a lier?
Carefull because everyone claims that Erdogan's goverment a lier faces JAIL.

I do. I would check my passport if he said what my name was. So, where are these commandos that apparently will fire at refugees and Greek border guards?