Turkey opens its borders for refugees to go to Europe.

[PointOfViewGun]

You got a source?

Bunch of in Turkish, but few in English. Rudaw reported his words while reporting on refugee resettlement on the newly attained Syrian lands east of Afrin as part of a different operation.

You mean it was founded in September of 2019. And none of its descions are binding and it has no timetables set or deadlines. Worse yet two very important groups were excluded from the Committee.
Like every other diplomatic attempt take to end the war its going to fail and does not at all gives answers on how to deal with HTS in Idlib.

Its supervised under the UN and Assad agreed to abide by it. I'm not sure how closer to a committee for peace one can get. If Assad wanted Turkey to deal with HTS it should have left the region in peace at least for a while. Constantly bombing civilian areas simply enforces HTSs grip. All these questions are relevant to YPG held territory as well. Are you referring to them when you said groups were excluded from the committee? What was excluded was YPG leadership. HTS was excluded as well. Yet, Arabs and Kurds are represented in the committee.

[ioannis76]

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/202...-refugees.html

The only thing is, the current administration here calls itself "right wing", and as such, it has to do the bidding (or at least be seen doing the bidding) or right wing voters.
Therefore, the Evros border pretty much closed for "refugees" (the vast majority of which are NOT from Syria but other places, including individuals who were in jail in Turkey for various crimes).
Under the pressure of the population of the islands, who have just about had enough of the Eurosuicide policies, the islands will follow suit (the residents themselves do not allow them to disembark on their island in Lesvos. It seems that Erdogan can't just "send them", forcing us to just "receive them". It was all a matter of will.

What remains to be seen, is how tear gas of the turkish police ended up in the hands of the "refugees", and were used against Greek police/military:

[Vanoi]

Its supervised under the UN and Assad agreed to abide by it.

The original Geneva peace talks between Assad and the opposition were supervised by the UN. Still led to nothing. And trusting Assad is dumb. I would think the current situation in Idlib would show that.

I'm not sure how closer to a committee for peace one can get.

Including all the actors in the war is a start. Since the current committee completely ignores the Kurds or the jihadists.

If Assad wanted Turkey to deal with HTS it should have left the region in peace at least for a while.

Kind of like how turkey sat by and watch HTS take over much of Idlib in 2019 and doing nothing to stop it at all?

Constantly bombing civilian areas simply enforces HTSs grip. All these questions are relevant to YPG held territory as well. Are you referring to them when you said groups were excluded from the committee? What was excluded was YPG leadership. HTS was excluded as well. Yet, Arabs and Kurds are represented in the committee.

Was referring to YPG and HTS. Including Arab and Kurds means nothing. Especially when your own country vetoed a proposal set for in the committee to make Kurdish a secondary language in Syria in an attempt sooth some Kurdish concerns about a new government.

You can't just exclude the YPG considering they are a major actor representing hundreds of thousands if not millions of Syrians in their territory.

And better yet, here's a link to the Syrian Constitutional Committee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian...onal_Committee

In its first days, the Committee managed to agree on a "code of conduct" for its members – which bound them to work with a "spirit of respect, cooperation and good faith", avoid any actions which might harm other members, as well as refrain from distributing any documents from within the plenary room as "official papers". The code of conduct, however, was made between the two Co-Chairs representing the Syrian Government and Opposition respectively, and not voted on by the whole body of the committee.^[24]

The Syrian Opposition focused its efforts on a return to an amended version of Syria's 1950 constitutional charter, which would considerably limit the powers of the Syrian Presidency, instead empowering a prime ministerial post. These efforts were rebuked by the Syrian Government, which flatly denied the proposal.^[25]
Proposals given before the committee included the recognition of the Kurdish language as a secondary language, as well as dropping the word "Arab" from Syria's official name – the "Syrian Arab Republic". Proposals aimed at bolstering the role of Kurds in Syria were strongly opposed by Turkey, which was expected to influence the opposition's delegates into voting down any proposal it deemed out of line.^[25]

Both first proposals failed. The Second Secession was no better.

The second session of the Committee ended in late November 2019 without agreement, as the two sides did not meet each other after failing to agree on an agenda for the session.^[26]
The Syrian government delegation had presented an agenda of what it dubbed "national pillars of the Syrian people", which rejected foreign, especially Turkish involvement in the Syrian Civil War, called for the lifting on the sanctions against Syria and condemned the armed rebel groups in Syria as terrorists. The opposition delegation rejected this proposal and accused the government delegation of attempting to sabotage the committee's work.^[27][28][29]
The opposition's delegation instead presented five proposals, mostly aimed at changing the preamble and principles of Syria's constitution. The government delegation rejected these proposals, stating that they would refuse to accept constitutional proposals before the committee accepts a statement of values, which it opines ought to condemn foreign involvement.^[27][28][29]
The government delegation then presented a proposal which suggested a meeting of the full committee and a discussion of the proposals presented by each member. This was also rejected by the opposition's delegation, with the opposition co-chair Hadi Al Bahra stating that they were "not in a cultural forum to have dialogue and discussions while explosive barrels are falling".^[27][28][29]
The Syrian opposition blamed the failure to agree to an agenda on the Syrian government for introducing what they deemed were "irrelevant" proposals to the committee, while the government delegation blamed the opposition for refusing to enter the meeting room.^[27][28][29]
Following these developments, the meeting was called off. UN Envoy Geir Otto Pedersen stated that no date had been set for a future meeting of the committee.^[27][30][31]
The Northwestern Syria offensive (November 2019–present) between the government and opposition forces began in parallel to the breakdown of talks at the constitutional committee.
A month later, in December 2019, Pedersen spoke before the UN Security Council, describing the situation as "protracted" and "deadlocked" and urged the two sides to agree to an agenda, stating that without such there would be no reason for the committee to meet for a third time.^[29]
The oppositon HNC's Chairman, Naser al-Hariri, stated in an interview to Asharq Al-Awsat in later December that the opposition would not enter into any talks with the government delegation before an agenda is set. He accused the Syrian government of failing the negotiations by not agreeing to their proposed agenda.^[32]

So. This entire time since September this Committee has made absolutely no progress, is in deadlock, and is now not even meeting. And this poor ass Committee is the justification for not allowing the war to end?

[ioannis76]

Perhaps a 10 km (or something thereabout) buffer zone inside Turkey would be required to tackle the problem, in order to avoid tensions between the EU and Turkey and ensure the continued good relations between the two parties.

[AnthoniusII]

Vast majority of secular Kemalists in Turkey prefer the Turkish army to just pack up and leave Syria completely. Such an approach ignores Assad's actions and the refugee problem its causing but it shouldn't mean you can disparage what people support.

Lets suppose that Assad is a Dictator that torture his subjects. In what ground Turkey supplied weapons to Syrian opposition and syrian Al Quaida (today Syrian Free fighters they call them selves)? It was an internal Syrian problem. We do not like Erdogan...so are we legitimized to invade Turkey to save Kemmalists from Erdogan or supply weapons to his political opponets? Is that what you are saying? Turkey hires planes with ilegal immigrants from Maroco and sent them to Greek borders because they can not pass the Spanish borders. Only the last two days 60 Maroco citizens, 20 Somalians, 30 Afgan , 30 Pakistani arrested for transpassing Greek borders and 1 (ONE) Syrian. Where are the 1 milion Idlip refuges? You hide people that Idlip has a 20% minoprity of Turcomans and Turkey wants to take this region by force (INVASION it is called) to give Turcomans a state taking Syrian lands like Turkey did in Cilicia region and Alexandreta port decades ago! So with your logic if its fair for 500000 Turcomans to have their own state is equaly fair for 40 milion Kurds to have their own. Same standards to anyone. And BTW tell your officials that Greece is not an easy opponet and it would be wise Turkish officials to avoid threats about 3-4 hours of defeating Greece. Greece has proven that defeated equaly strong to Turkey forces in the past. And After USA and Turkey it has the third biggest army in the NATO. Greece is no Kurds nore Cyprus. So keep the big words on the ground to avoid humiliation in the future.
EDIT:
@PointOfViewGun
Watch my avatar carefully. In 1996 that unit was ready to INVADE Turkey if Immia INCIDENT would escalated tp a war.
I guess you know about Ancient Greece through TW games but if you can not read its motto i will help you.
Its part of what Spartans said.. "We do not ask how many the enemies are but where are they"...Keep this in mind. In 1912/1913 A single ship defeated your entire fleet. Ask your teachers "where is Barbaross Banner today"? To see what answer they will give you.

[Infidel144]

The 1967 Protocol voided that description:
3. The present Protocol shall be applied by the States Parties hereto without any geographic limitation, save that existing declarations made by States already Parties to the Convention in accordance with article I B (I) (a) of the Convention, shall, unless extended under article I B (2) thereof, apply also under the present Protocol.

The 1967 protocol does not void the safe third country concept, basis, or application in the relevant cited UNHCR ExCom conclusion in 1989, nor in equivalent EU or national laws.

It kinda does, since it was the whole point of that protocol, but sure.

The "geographic limitation" (or temporal and geographic limitations) does not, contrary to what Setekh claims, refer to the 'safe third country'.
The temporal and geographic limits that were removed referred to persons fleeing events that happened in Europe before 1951. Until the 67 Protocol countries could extend this to all persons in the world. After the 67 Protocol any countries signing on did not have the option of the temporal and geographic limitation.
Those countries that signed on before the 67 Protocol could maintain that limitation and consider it as only applying to those persons fleeing the events that happened in Europe.
Turkey is, to my knowledge, one of those counties that still uses the geographic and temporal limitation of the 1951 Convention.

[PointOfViewGun]

This video was reportedly taken off the coast of Bodrum. Can Greek members verify?



It shows Greek coast guard trying to sink a refugee boat in the middle of the sea.

Lets suppose that Assad is a Dictator that torture his subjects. In what ground Turkey supplied weapons to Syrian opposition and syrian Al Quaida (today Syrian Free fighters they call them selves)? It was an internal Syrian problem. We do not like Erdogan...so are we legitimized to invade Turkey to save Kemmalists from Erdogan or supply weapons to his political opponets? Is that what you are saying? Turkey hires planes with ilegal immigrants from Maroco and sent them to Greek borders because they can not pass the Spanish borders. Only the last two days 60 Maroco citizens, 20 Somalians, 30 Afgan , 30 Pakistani arrested for transpassing Greek borders and 1 (ONE) Syrian. Where are the 1 milion Idlip refuges? You hide people that Idlip has a 20% minoprity of Turcomans and Turkey wants to take this region by force (INVASION it is called) to give Turcomans a state taking Syrian lands like Turkey did in Cilicia region and Alexandreta port decades ago! So with your logic if its fair for 500000 Turcomans to have their own state is equaly fair for 40 milion Kurds to have their own. Same standards to anyone. And BTW tell your officials that Greece is not an easy opponet and it would be wise Turkish officials to avoid threats about 3-4 hours of defeating Greece. Greece has proven that defeated equaly strong to Turkey forces in the past. And After USA and Turkey it has the third biggest army in the NATO. Greece is no Kurds nore Cyprus. So keep the big words on the ground to avoid humiliation in the future.
EDIT:
@PointOfViewGun
Watch my avatar carefully. In 1996 that unit was ready to INVADE Turkey if Immia INCIDENT would escalated tp a war.
I guess you know about Ancient Greece through TW games but if you can not read its motto i will help you.
Its part of what Spartans said.. "We do not ask how many the enemies are but where are they"...Keep this in mind. In 1912/1913 A single ship defeated your entire fleet. Ask your teachers "where is Barbaross Banner today"? To see what answer they will give you.

Sigh... Such pompous talk doesn't accomplish anything. Trying to venerate your own nation through belittling others is not a good position to have. Of course, a good portion of your post is simply delusional ranting. You're merely hurting your own side.

[Vardano]

Turkish mob attacking homes of Syrians in Maras.

https://anfenglish.com/news/national...in-maras-41986
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAvH...ature=emb_logo

Are they gonna deport this poor people straight to Syria like they did it to Armenians 100 years ago?

[AnthoniusII]

This video was reportedly taken off the coast of Bodrum. Can Greek members verify?



It shows Greek coast guard trying to sink a refugee boat in the middle of the sea.




Sigh... Such pompous talk doesn't accomplish anything. Trying to venerate your own nation through belittling others is not a good position to have. Of course, a good portion of your post is simply delusional ranting. You're merely hurting your own side.

You forgot to mention that the video was taken by the Turkish Coast Guard vessel that pushed that boat to Greek waters.
Also an other Turkish Coast guard vessel tries to sink a boat full of refugges inside the greek waters.

Can you see the Turkish insignia in the coast guard vessel or should i sent you a pair of glasses. This video is 3 years old and proves that Turkey has the same policy for years!!

[PointOfViewGun]

You forgot to mention that the video was taken by the Turkish Coast Guard vessel that pushed that boat to Greek waters.
Also an other Turkish Coast guard vessel tries to sink a boat full of refugges inside the greek waters.
Can you see the Turkish insignia in the coast guard vessel or should i sent you a pair of glasses. This video is 3 years old and proves that Turkey has the same policy for years!!

So, its OK to sink boats in the middle of the sea if a Turkish boat somehow pushed it there? In reality, you have no knowledge on how that boat got there.

Please do send those glasses as I see no insignia Turkish or not, nor I see any point in any refugee trying to go to Turkey by boat.

Meanwhile, does Turkey hypothetically employing such an awful measure make it a defense for Greece? You can't even acknowledge clear evidence. If any of the allegations against the Turkish coast guard is true the captains should be arrested and put on trial for attempt of murder. Can you say the same for the Greek captains?

[AnthoniusII]

So, its OK to sink boats in the middle of the sea if a Turkish boat somehow pushed it there? In reality, you have no knowledge on how that boat got there.

Please do send those glasses as I see no insignia Turkish or not, nor I see any point in any refugee trying to go to Turkey by boat.

Meanwhile, does Turkey hypothetically employing such an awful measure make it a defense for Greece? You can't even acknowledge clear evidence. If any of the allegations against the Turkish coast guard is true the captains should be arrested and put on trial for attempt of murder. Can you say the same for the Greek captains?

I appologise ....I forgot to show you the video that a Turkish Coast Guard vessel ESCORTS (violates greek national waters) a boat full of refugges.

So violating an other country's borders PROMOTING ilegal imigration makes Turkey looks like a slave trader of the 18th century...
But i guess this is fine to you !
On the contrary the right of a country to keep ilegal immigrants away from its lands is not.
I will nominate you for SUPREME LOGIC award in the Citizens of TWC section.

[Heathen Hammer]

Ottoman habits die hard... But seriously, Turkey has nobody to blame, but itself. Serves them right for intervening in sovereign country's affairs against its legitimate government. European countries should stand their ground and not let anyone in.

[dogukan]

Vast majority of secular Kemalists in Turkey prefer the Turkish army to just pack up and leave Syria completely. Such an approach ignores Assad's actions and the refugee problem its causing but it shouldn't mean you can disparage what people support.

The whole refuge crisis is a product of Turkey's islamo-nationalist expansionism into Syria. So lets not act like this thing got to this level on its own. Turkey actively armed and supported jihadis, playing the biggest role in destruction of Syria.

And now, with the nationalist hysteria, Turkish public is easily guided into supporting jihadism and Turkey's islamist colony plans. Half of Turkey is already largely Islamists, but it is telling a lot how the a large portion of the other half is ready to blindly jump in, finding excuses like "refugees" as if thats the real issue here......

[Gromovnik]

Let's have some fun. What do you guys think is an acceptable level of violence in stopping refugees from crossing imaginary lines?

[Tureuki]

If the refugee crisis was merely a product of Turkey's support to rebels, one would assume that the common folk would embrace Assad's victorious militants with open arms, yet all i see is people fleeing from wherever Assad takes over, and seemingly having no intention of returning to Assad controlled areas even after the clashes cease. In this case, what would change in terms of refugee crisis if Assad had a quicker victory? I also remember that it wasn't only Turkey who supported the rebels, in fact, as far as i know Turkey entered the scene late compared to some others.

The mistakes AKP made at the beginning are now irrevelant, whether we like it or not we cannot go back into past, we have to live by the realities of present, something a lot of oppos in Turkey refuse to grasp, that's one of the reasons why i, despite being opposed to AKP, kinda fear an opposition takeover, because they are so used to blindly attacking anything AKP does that they are oblivious to some realities and necessities.

Greek soldiers beat, rob and attempt to kill the refugees(even killed one according to some news, haven't confirmed yet), it must feel so good to have no international backlash to any of your barbaric actions simply because you are a European Greek with unlimited credit, if one Turkish citizen in some remote mountain village does something dumb, we are the top story right away.

[Heathen Hammer]

People fleeing from active combat does not change the fact that conflict would have been long over (at least its active combat phase) if it wasn't for Erdogan's intervention on behalf of radical islamist groups against Syria's legitimate government.
I don't see Greek government doing anything wrong, as they weren't the ones who unleashed Islamist theocratic groups in Syria, nor were they ones starting massive migration in the midst of a potential global pandemic.

[PointOfViewGun]

I appologise ....I forgot to show you the video that a Turkish Coast Guard vessel ESCORTS (violates greek national waters) a boat full of refugges.

So violating an other country's borders PROMOTING ilegal imigration makes Turkey looks like a slave trader of the 18th century...
But i guess this is fine to you !
On the contrary the right of a country to keep ilegal immigrants away from its lands is not.
I will nominate you for SUPREME LOGIC award in the Citizens of TWC section.

And, we're jumping to a different baseless claim now. You have absolutely no idea where those boats were. When do you think you'll realize what you're doing here is undermining your position?

The whole refuge crisis is a product of Turkey's islamo-nationalist expansionism into Syria. So lets not act like this thing got to this level on its own. Turkey actively armed and supported jihadis, playing the biggest role in destruction of Syria.

And now, with the nationalist hysteria, Turkish public is easily guided into supporting jihadism and Turkey's islamist colony plans. Half of Turkey is already largely Islamists, but it is telling a lot how the a large portion of the other half is ready to blindly jump in, finding excuses like "refugees" as if thats the real issue here......

Turkey armed Syrian government to start shooting at its own citizens in mass? Or it supplied the Syrian government with the means to carpet bomb its own cities?That's how it all started. Turkey contributed a lot to this conflict along with various other players. That doesn't mean it owns the refugee problem.

People fleeing from active combat does not change the fact that conflict would have been long over (at least its active combat phase) if it wasn't for Erdogan's intervention on behalf of radical islamist groups against Syria's legitimate government.
I don't see Greek government doing anything wrong, as they weren't the ones who unleashed Islamist theocratic groups in Syria, nor were they ones starting massive migration in the midst of a potential global pandemic.

Turks were flying Syrian jets bombing Idlib now?

[AnthoniusII]

And, we're jumping to a different baseless claim now. You have absolutely no idea where those boats were. When do you think you'll realize what you're doing here is undermining your position?




Turkey armed Syrian government to start shooting at its own citizens in mass? Or it supplied the Syrian government with the means to carpet bomb its own cities?That's how it all started. Turkey contributed a lot to this conflict along with various other players. That doesn't mean it owns the refugee problem.




Turks were flying Syrian jets bombing Idlib now?

Correct me If I am wrong. After the failed attempt to overthrone Erdogan 3 years ago there were more than half a milion arrests of so called Gullenists and Kemmalists not to mention almost a milion civil servoce members that last their jobs. Was that treatment a fair reason foe another country to invade Turkey?
Instead Turkey STARTED the Syrian civil war by promoting with Saudi Arabia the creation of ISIL , the creation of an autonomus region of Turcmen (idlip) by providing weapons , anti-tank missiles (tow-2) , anti-aircraft small range missile (stinger). So it was not Assad's regime that started the Syrian civil war it was Turkey . If Turkey started this must be the ONLY one with the responsabillity to hundle it. Turkey had no busness to interfear to another country's afairs. Remember that Idlip is a Syrian region not a Turkish one. The Turks there are occupation forces not liberators and their allies are the former Syrian Al Quida. With your prospective we (the rest of the world) must vote in UN a universal campaign for a free Kurdistan ..They have rights too you know not only the Kongo, Maroco and Pakistani ilegal immigrands. Last news...Turkish forces move with busses the majority of refugees from the place they could not enter to points that Evros river is shalow to make a huge brake through knowing that the last 18 hours all Greek forces have real fire exersices from Evros to all Islands. The plan is to have accidentaly victims from refugees to apear Turkey as their protector. Greek Goverment informed NATO that such move may cause an in-NATO members war!
Do you realise the word WAR or you want me to draw it for you. Because it seams the only war you know is from video games. But I was soldier that winter of 1996 THAT WAR was seconds away and I know the feeling. I wish you will never learn that feeling your self. That are no heros like Troy Total War only "beasts" ready to eat one another to survive. Read my sig carefully.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

People fleeing from active combat does not change the fact that conflict would have been long over (at least its active combat phase) if it wasn't for Erdogan's intervention on behalf of radical islamist groups against Syria's legitimate government.

It would have been over even earlier if Iran, Hezbollah and (later) Russia hadn't intervened.
As for Turkey, not entirely sure if that's the case. Sure, it prevents (or tries to) the fall of Idlib, but the Turkish backed ceasefire they agreed on with Russia allowed the SAA to go after rebel pockets basically one by one by only violating the truce in one area at a time while most of the other rebels tried to stay out of the conflict, allowing the SAA to more quickly put down all the other pockets of resistance and focus most of their forces on a single front.

[AnthoniusII]

It would have been over even earlier if Iran, Hezbollah and (later) Russia hadn't intervened.
As for Turkey, not entirely sure if that's the case. Sure, it prevents (or tries to) the fall of Idlib, but the Turkish backed ceasefire they agreed on with Russia allowed the SAA to go after rebel pockets basically one by one by only violating the truce in one area at a time while most of the other rebels tried to stay out of the conflict, allowing the SAA to more quickly put down all the other pockets of resistance and focus most of their forces on a single front.

Your info is wrong.
Syria, Iraq , Egypt and later Lybia , inorder to avoid religius conflicts created Baath party. That kind of goverment was too tolerant to all religions (remember that Sadam Husein's Army Chief was a Christian).
Then when Turkey passed the line of bankcrupt by Erdogan's reforms started to suport the so call Muslim Brotherhood that would be the opposite side of Iran but still a Thoecratic regime. When it failed in Egypt , Turket with the suport of Saudi Arabia and Qatar financed radical groups. A turkish journalist that revealed that convoys with heavy armory pass the Iraqi and Syrian borders with ISIL and Al Quida as recievers m found quilty of treason and he is still in jail. That same time Saudi Arabia and Turkey financed the revolution against Gaddafi that a month earlier made a many billion dollars oil agreement with UK. Turkey and Saudi Arabia helped by France and Italy (thatr now regret that desision of theirs). Iran interfeared only when the Assad Forces were about to collapse. But as radical Iran can be its not that radical like Al Quaida and Isil Turkey still suports. Those "refugees" that now siege the greek borders are former Maroco, Pakistan, Afgan and Somali jihadis that they MUST enter EU inorder to cover their tracks now that Assad is winning in Syria. They ARE NOT Syrians.