Turkey opens its borders for refugees to go to Europe.

[PointOfViewGun]

Keep this post for future judgment. Turkey's plan is to start a hot episode with Greece. Seeing that the Greek government was able to sell its cowardice to the Greek public as "air" (the Uruc Reis incidence), uses other means. Turkey is escorting migrant boats with its coast guard vessels and warships. Turkish Navy ships are "heavily" armed for their mission. What the Turks hope is that Greeks will start firing in the air for intimidation, and then Turkey will claim that its ships were attacked by Greeks and responded in self-defense. Something similar is going to happen to Evros river. Turks are tearing down the migrants and firing more into the air to frighten them. If a Greek patrol does the same, we can see an exchange of fire between border patrols and an artillery fire exchange again in the context of "self-defense" claimed by Turkey. The point is critical and delicate.

This post needs to be marked for the extremely delusional stance it tries to argue.

I’m not going to argue over the validity of travel information from the State Department regarding entry and travel in the EU. The EU also requires evidence of financial support to apply for a visa. Do Syrians in Turkey have visa free travel to the EU? The question was why Erdogan has leverage here or why these or most migrants seeking entry to European countries wouldn’t be barred under equivalent provisions in the laws there.

International travel is quite common. You can easily verify what I said. Since its fairly basic its not something anyone would lie about. It should prompt you to question your source (though you can even verify online that EU countries require no visa from US citizens anyways).

Applying for visa is quite different. Most countries do want to see a number of documents from ticket/hotel confirmation to bank statement. For fairs, my company always issues a stamped and signed statement covering expenses of any employee applying for a visa. No one in Turkey, excluding people like, has visa-free travel to EU countries.

There are two factors in refugees travelling to European countries. One is the human factor. When thousands of people bank on your borders you can't just shoot them off. Turkey didn't accept 4 million Syrians to Turkey because they could travel to Turkey visa-free. Second factor is that by international law countries are forced to accept asylum seekers. The 1951 Refugee Convention obligates countries to accept refugees.

[AnthoniusII]

This post needs to be marked for the extremely delusional stance it tries to argue.

There are videos shown Turkish policemen to supply refugees with smoke grenades inorder to push back Greek border guards and pass the borders. There are videos with Turkish policemen firing in the air like cowboys in a cuttle flok to scare immigrabnts and keep pushing to pass the greek borders. There are videos with busses full of refugees escort by police cars to arrive in the Turkish Greek borders. Turkish Police arrested a Greek reporter when a refugee shown an sms sent by the Turkish goverment that the border are open and a map how they will pass the Greek and Bulgarian borders to reach Paris and Berlin. Link 1. Link 2 . (watch the turkish frigade that escorted the ilegal imigrants from africa to reach Greek island).


This is a turkish Police/Army smoke grenade used by refugees in the battles with Greek border guard to pass the borders. Happily provided by Turkish Goverment!
EDIT: If i woud be the Greek Primeminister I would call EU and NATO to create a 30 miles free zone inside Turkey like Turkey created in Syria inorder to gather all refugges. Same problem same solution. Lets force Turkey to give 30 miles zone of free refugee establishment the same style Turkey did and gave us the example.

[Lord Thesaurian]

International travel is quite common. You can easily verify what I said. Since its fairly basic its not something anyone would lie about. It should prompt you to question your source

The State Department?

(though you can even verify online that EU countries require no visa from US citizens anyways).

My source didn’t claim US tourists need a visa for entry.

There are two factors in refugees travelling to European countries. One is the human factor. When thousands of people bank on your borders you can't just shoot them off. Turkey didn't accept 4 million Syrians to Turkey because they could travel to Turkey visa-free. Second factor is that by international law countries are forced to accept asylum seekers. The 1951 Refugee Convention obligates countries to accept refugees.

I’m aware that Turkey is obligated to accept them. From Europe, Turkey can be considered a safe third country under international law. That’s the whole issue. The question was why Erdogan has leverage here or why these or most migrants seeking entry to European countries wouldn’t be barred under equivalent provisions in the laws there.

[Aexodus]

@Legio we have much looser laws around asylum than you. Even if a migrant has previously passed through another safe country to get to a wealthier one, they still have to be given asylum. The first safe country rule doesn’t really matter or apply.

'Europe is nicer': migrants head west after Turkey opens border

[Lord Thesaurian]

@Legio we have much looser laws around asylum than you. Even if a migrant has previously passed through another safe country to get to a wealthier one, they still have to be given asylum. The first safe country rule doesn’t really matter or apply.

My condolences.

[Papay]

Do you see that map? Greece has around 20 inhabited islands just next to Turkey. Turks can easily send refugees with lifeboats on the other side. Its so close they dont even need a navigator. Naval border cannot be sealed

[AnthoniusII]

There are videos shown Turkish policemen to supply refugees with smoke grenades inorder to push back Greek border guards and pass the borders. There are videos with Turkish policemen firing in the air like cowboys in a cuttle flok to scare immigrabnts and keep pushing to pass the greek borders. There are videos with busses full of refugees escort by police cars to arrive in the Turkish Greek borders. Turkish Police arrested a Greek reporter when a refugee shown an sms sent by the Turkish goverment that the border are open and a map how they will pass the Greek and Bulgarian borders to reach Paris and Berlin. Link 1. Link 2 . (watch the turkish frigade that escorted the ilegal imigrants from africa to reach Greek island).


This is a turkish Police/Army smoke grenade used by refugees in the battles with Greek border guard to pass the borders. Happily provided by Turkish Goverment!
EDIT: If i woud be the Greek Primeminister I would call EU and NATO to create a 30 miles free zone inside Turkey like Turkey created in Syria inorder to gather all refugges. Same problem same solution. Lets force Turkey to give 30 miles zone of free refugee establishment the same style Turkey did and gave us the example.

I hate my self when I am right ! Warning shots by Greek Armed Forces in Evros river (all because one day Erdogan woke a morning and imagined him self as the new Suleiman the Magnifisent and the majority of Turks voted his dream. A dream that might bring Turkey to pieces). https://piraeuspress.gr/hellas/409938/evros-vinteo-ntokoumento-proidopiitika-pyra-ton-enoplon-dynameon/
EDIT: There is still hope. Turks ask Erdogan to leave power and bring their soldiers back from Syria.

[PointOfViewGun]

There are videos shown Turkish policemen to supply refugees with smoke grenades inorder to push back Greek border guards and pass the borders. There are videos with Turkish policemen firing in the air like cowboys in a cuttle flok to scare immigrabnts and keep pushing to pass the greek borders. There are videos with busses full of refugees escort by police cars to arrive in the Turkish Greek borders. Turkish Police arrested a Greek reporter when a refugee shown an sms sent by the Turkish goverment that the border are open and a map how they will pass the Greek and Bulgarian borders to reach Paris and Berlin. Link 1. Link 2 . (watch the turkish frigade that escorted the ilegal imigrants from africa to reach Greek island).


This is a turkish Police/Army smoke grenade used by refugees in the battles with Greek border guard to pass the borders. Happily provided by Turkish Goverment!
EDIT: If i woud be the Greek Primeminister I would call EU and NATO to create a 30 miles free zone inside Turkey like Turkey created in Syria inorder to gather all refugges. Same problem same solution. Lets force Turkey to give 30 miles zone of free refugee establishment the same style Turkey did and gave us the example.

Interesting how none of that, regardless of your inability to provide proper sources on majority of your claims, actually support your earlier claim that Turkey is using the refugee crisis to start a war with Greece.

The State Department?
My source didn’t claim US tourists need a visa for entry.

Yes, the state department in this case which is embarrassing. You can ask any US citizen that traveled to a EU country and they will confirm. This is honestly not something to argue against. The state department quote you posted suggested that the passport with applicable visas, if needed, was required. This implies that some countries may require visas. No Schengen area country requires visas from US citizens.

I’m aware that Turkey is obligated to accept them. From Europe, Turkey can be considered a safe third country under international law. That’s the whole issue. The question was why Erdogan has leverage here or why these or most migrants seeking entry to European countries wouldn’t be barred under equivalent provisions in the laws there.

The safe third country concept is something the Europeans cooked up to avoid accepting refugees from far away countries. It doesn't exactly have a basis in international law. Even if we accepted that concept at face value, Turkey maintaining a 4 million Syrian refugee population with 2 million more on the way no longer makes it a safe country. European help to maintain them have been negligible so far. That's why whenever I ask for how much Europe gave to Turkey no one has the face to respond. What EU gave to Turkey to maintain millions of Syrians have been a fraction of what they chose to spend in their own countries for thousands they had. Within this context, the issue is not exactly whether Erdoğan has leverage or not. He's merely using a reality as a political rhetoric to appear as the strong man. In reality, Turkey's capacity to host so many refugees has been depleted.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Yes, the state department in this case which is embarrassing. You can ask any US citizen that traveled to a EU country and they will confirm. This is honestly not something to argue against. The state department quote you posted suggested that the passport with applicable visas, if needed, was required. This implies that some countries may require visas. No Schengen area country requires visas from US citizens.

The State Department didn’t claim Schengen Area countries may require visas from US citizens. What they said is that border officials have the right to ask for documentation of financial support from US travelers upon entry to the Schengen Area/EU countries, and turn away those who do not satisfy the requirements. Whether they do in practice, or in your experience, is another matter. The point in mentioning this is that Schengen/European border guards evidently have the right to ask this from visa free travelers.

The safe third country concept is something the Europeans cooked up to avoid accepting refugees from far away countries. It doesn't exactly have a basis in international law. Even if we accepted that concept at face value, Turkey maintaining a 4 million Syrian refugee population with 2 million more on the way no longer makes it a safe country. European help to maintain them have been negligible so far. That's why whenever I ask for how much Europe gave to Turkey no one has the face to respond. What EU gave to Turkey to maintain millions of Syrians have been a fraction of what they chose to spend in their own countries for thousands they had. Within this context, the issue is not exactly whether Erdoğan has leverage or not. He's merely using a reality as a political rhetoric to appear as the strong man. In reality, Turkey's capacity to host so many refugees has been depleted.

The concept of a safe third country exists within international law.

e) Refugees and asylum-seekers, who have found protection in a particular country, should normally not move from that country in an irregular manner in order to find durable solutions elsewhere but should take advantage of durable solutions available in that country through action taken by governments and UNHCR as recommended in paragraphs (c) and (d) above;

f) Where refugees and asylum-seekers nevertheless move in an irregular manner from a country where they have already found protection, they may be returned to that country if

i) they are protected there against refoulement and

ii) they are permitted to remain there and to be treated in accordance with recognized basic human standards until a durable solution is found for them. Where such return is envisaged, UNHCR may be requested to assist in arrangements for the re-admission and reception of the persons concerned;

https://www.unhcr.org/en-us/excom/ex...ady-found.html

The issue therefore is that European countries would not be obligated to take in Syrians from Turkey without applicable visas, specific grants of asylum, or other documentation of lawful entry, regardless of whatever Erdogan decides to do. Perhaps laws in certain European countries or the EU are more generous than their international equivalent.

[PointOfViewGun]

The State Department didn’t claim Schengen Area countries may require visas from US citizens. What they said is that border officials have the right to ask for documentation of financial support from US travelers upon entry to the Schengen Area/EU countries, and turn away those who do not satisfy the requirements. Whether they do in practice, or in your experience, is another matter. The point in mentioning this is that Schengen/European border guards evidently have the right to ask this from visa free travelers.

From your earlier post:

* A U.S. passport (with applicable visas, if needed), valid for at least 90 days beyond your intended date of departure from the Schengen area. Note: Border officials often assume you will stay the maximum 90 days, even if this is not your intention.

The concept of a safe third country exists within international law.

The issue therefore is that European countries would not be obligated to take in Syrians from Turkey without applicable visas, specific grants of asylum, or other documentation of lawful entry, regardless of whatever Erdogan decides to do. Perhaps laws in certain European countries or the EU are more generous than their international equivalent.

I don't see any reference to any international treaty there. On the other side, you think only Turkey is obligated to house all the refugees?

[Vanoi]

I don't see any reference to any international treaty there. On the other side, you think only Turkey is obligated to house all the refugees?

Other countries do have Syrian refugees, Turkey isn't the only one.

[PointOfViewGun]

Other countries do have Syrian refugees, Turkey isn't the only one.

You do realize we're talking about a hypothetical case?

[AnthoniusII]

Interesting how none of that, regardless of your inability to provide proper sources on majority of your claims, actually support your earlier claim that Turkey is using the refugee crisis to start a war with Greece.

Its true there is no video of Turkish policemen giving hand to hand the smoke grenades to refugees (the photo is no evidence in your prospective) and the smoke grenades may passed the borders by their own!
Ussing your kind of thinking. We do not have any evidence that you are a human (a video maybe or your birth cerificate) and you mat be a bot programmed to give answers in sites the suit the Turkish Gverment. Can you prove you are human? EDIT: You deny videos from refugees interviews as evidences ussing the excuse that they are in Turkish language and 99.9% of the members do not understand Turkish and evidence in TWC consider's only something in english language. If I upload some videos will you have THE HONESTY AND COURAGE TO TRANSLATE THEM to become evidences of my claims?

[Lord Thesaurian]

From your earlier post:

My earlier post citing the State Department indicated border officials have the right to ask for documentation of financial support from US travelers upon entry to the Schengen Area/EU countries, and turn away those who do not satisfy the requirements.

I don't see any reference to any international treaty there. On the other side, you think only Turkey is obligated to house all the refugees?

ExCom Conclusions constitute expressions of international consensus as a function of the UN High Council on Refugees. The concept of a safe third country has been established within national and international laws for decades.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

I think the small Lebanon and Jordan with its very weak economies carry a higher burden than anyone else.

Assad has won the war, every support for the rebels is only prolonging it on cost of the civilan population.

[AnthoniusII]

I think the small Lebanon and Jordan with its very weak economies carry a higher burden than anyone else.

Greece in the last decade had from the Turkish borders hosted 1 million ilegal imigrands. Also hosts more than 60000 Syrians that their assylum status is undetermined!!!

[Vanoi]

You do realize we're talking about a hypothetical case?

Oh so an irrelevant point? Ok.

[PointOfViewGun]

Its true there is no video of Turkish policemen giving hand to hand the smoke grenades to refugees (the photo is no evidence in your prospective) and the smoke grenades may passed the borders by their own!
Ussing your kind of thinking. We do not have any evidence that you are a human (a video maybe or your birth cerificate) and you mat be a bot programmed to give answers in sites the suit the Turkish Gverment. Can you prove you are human? EDIT: You deny videos from refugees interviews as evidences ussing the excuse that they are in Turkish language and 99.9% of the members do not understand Turkish and evidence in TWC consider's only something in english language. If I upload some videos will you have THE HONESTY AND COURAGE TO TRANSLATE THEM to become evidences of my claims?

Both are your posts from this very same page:

There are videos shown Turkish policemen to supply refugees with smoke grenades inorder to push back Greek border guards and pass the borders.

Its true there is no video of Turkish policemen giving hand to hand the smoke grenades to refugees ...

I really don't need to dive much into your posts.

My earlier post citing the State Department indicated border officials have the right to ask for documentation of financial support from US travelers upon entry to the Schengen Area/EU countries, and turn away those who do not satisfy the requirements.

This doesn't address your earlier claim.

ExCom Conclusions constitute expressions of international consensus as a function of the UN High Council on Refugees. The concept of a safe third country has been established within national and international laws for decades.

This is no international law as much as you try to extend it to be. So, no word on how Turkey should handle millions of refugees by its own?

Oh so an irrelevant point? Ok.

Nope. You're just whining because you jumped the gun without properly reading what people discuss. It's better not to do that again.

[Kyriakos]

Sigh... What do you think you will accomplish with such cheap and idiotic arguments? Seriously? Turkish intervention not being the cause of the refugee influx is not a product of Turkish media, nor Turkey's latest decision to stop containing refugees in its own territory relates to the issue whether Turkish intervention causing the refugee problem. You can do better.

You can't speak of cheap or idiotic, bro, you are defending your fascist state.

[PointOfViewGun]

You can't speak of cheap or idiotic, bro, you are defending your fascist state.

I think you could really do better than that.