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Thread: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

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    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]


    D I G S

    DIPLOMACY LIMITATOR
    Alpha_01

    ! DIGS is already included into TESTUDO !
    ! DIGS is NOT SAVE GAME COMPATIBLE !
    ! DIGS is for GRAND CAMPAIGN only !



    WHAT IS DIGS?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    DIGS is a sort of acronym for...

    1) Diplomatic
    2) LImitator
    3) and
    4) Transfer
    5) ReGion

    ... Systems

    Briefly, and as it is in the current version, DIGS removes some of the diplomatic TOTAL WAR features coming from the vanilla game.
    Inside DIGS there are scripted diplomatic constraints (both for player and AI).
    Could I just have modded CAI values? Yes and no. DB moddings can't properly build conditions. Scripts can.

    This mod has been mainly done for TESTUDO (which has also modded CAI values), but inside this thread you can find packs for DeI vanilla too.

    Basically I will "dig in" some "total war non wanted behaviours" and "dig out" a transfer region system.

    Alpha_01 contains:

    1) Set "diplomatic communications" ON/OFF depending on turns.
    ON is twice per year for 4tpy (spring and autumn) and once per season for 12tpy (first season month).
    OFF is all the other turns.
    This will diminish the "diplo AI spam messages" and also statistically reduce "AI weird diplo behaviours". Also, player will have to plan his diplomacy a little more.

    2) Some diplo limitations for some diplo choice depending on the "diplomatic attitude", basically if you're best friend, very friendly, friendly, neutral, hostile, very hostile, bitter enemy.
    Should be useful to limit backstabs when AI liberates factions. Liberated factions have a statistical tendency to behave that way.
    Also, player can't be, more or less, backstabbed by friendly AI
    They are different depending on: AI towards PL, AI towards AI, PL towards AI.
    They also depend on Imperium Level. The more an AI faction is bigger the more it will be free to act (and backstab)

    3) some starting limitations for custom factions (TESTUDO ONLY)

    MAYBE, IN THE FUTURE, I'LL DO:

    A) Add a "diplomatic map range" for every faction, player and AI. The more Imperium Level a faction has the more the radius grows, meaning that small factions won't be able to diplomatically communicate too far away.
    This will add some realism and limit weird global wars.

    B) Put a diplomatic limitator depending on what kind of treaties you have with a faction.
    To make an example: let's say that it is turn 2 and you just obtained a non aggression pact with an AI faction.
    What I want to do is a limitator which will oblige the AI to NOT break the non aggression pact for x turns.
    AI and player have some diplomatic consequences if they break pacts before some fixed (and moddable) turn values but AI simply doesn't care much about them.

    The script will limit the diplomatic choices. During OFF turns for example you won't be capable to diplomatically communicate with anyone.
    Your diplomatic panel will be like this (except when you have defensive/military alliances, you can offer the AI to break them):





    @@@ DOWNLOAD DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    - NOT SAVE COMPATIBLE
    - GRAND CAMPAIGN ONLY (could be adaptable if requested)
    - COMPATIBLE with DeI vanilla and any DeI submod (except TESTUDO AND PIGS). It contains external scripts though. So it won't be compatible with other mods with external scripts (Valerius' Alternative Traits for example)
    - TESTUDO already includes a custom version of DIGS. DO NOT USE these packs with TESTUDO

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Last edited by Jake Armitage; February 28, 2020 at 08:11 AM.

  2. #2
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    Reserved for the Transfer Region system I'll do one day...

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    ~Seleukos.I.Nikator~'s Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    Well done!

    You are producing these mods, Jake, at the speed of rabbits reproduction!

    Some really good ideas here. Limiting the diplomatic range would be indeed a welcome addition if you think you can pull it off.

    Have you also thought about limiting a number of allowed trade agreements to prevent the player from abusing this diplo interaction?

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    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    Diplomatic range isn't hard to do, there already are some CA scripts that can be adapted for that.
    What is hard to do is point B) actually.
    Limiting the trade agreements is easy but I've already put that limitation (it works in a different way though) inside the VPS Economical Trust

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    valerius karamanus's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    Great I've been waiting for this before a new campaign.

    Now what we need is a script that resets diplomacy of the established client state. I'm tired of seeing my allies and client states slaughter each other. Also do you know a way to include dynastic marriage for faction heirs too?

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    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    client state: you know what? I don't know pretty anything about client state behaviours... never set a client state. Point 2 should already limit some useless backstabbing options depending on "diplomatic attitude" though
    Can you describe what the problem is? Maybe I can do something focused on them.
    dynastic marriage: nope, pretty sure it is hardcoded

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    valerius karamanus's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Armitage View Post
    Can you describe what the problem is? Maybe I can do something focused on them.
    Let's say I am Massalia, I sign defensive alliance with Roma. We both declare war on Ligurians, I conquer Genoa and establish Ligurians as my client state. BUT their previous diplomatic treaties remain untouched and Romans are still at war with them. As they continue to hate each other, my diplomatic relations with both also detoriates. We need to solve this by resetting all diplomacy of newly created client state. Hope I described it clearly.

    dynastic marriage: nope, pretty sure it is hardcoded
    Oh thats a pity. But since a wife is technically an ancillary, we can always arrange something by cdir events. Just need some creativity.

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    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    ah ok
    yes, it should be doable for both ways
    - Rome is forced to sign peace with liguria
    - the player (Massalia) can't make client state (both through diplomacy panel and as occupy condition) with Liguria if Liguria is at war with a Massalia ally

    I'll surely keep that in mind and do something one day
    Thanks for the input

  9. #9

    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    very cool! thank you, sir.

  10. #10

    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    Nice mod man, you know what would be cool? the Diplo system of Imperator Rome where depending of your Size you can access X treaties. For example if you are a small kingdom you can only make non agression pacts with other minor factions; BIG ones can create client state (or small ones can look protection this way by big factions. and so on .

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    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    oh yeah, those are cool ideas, indeed!

  12. #12

    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    As always wonderful work Jake. The transfer regions would be amazing as well. That and also somehow making it so that the AI is actually open to peace, especially in wars they are losing, without them having to be utterly beaten (down to one region etc..)

  13. #13

    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Armitage View Post
    oh yeah, those are cool ideas, indeed!
    Cool but...possible?
    (can't rep you back still but I apreciate it )

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    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    @gnosis
    yes you could do that but I'll need to build a sort of VPS system for having a nice feature. I'm not sure it really worths honestly... DIGS should limit pretty much the wars you'll have to face (mostly limiting the "unexpected" ones).
    Problem is that I'm not sure if it can become a choice or it can just be a thing that happens, meaning that player can't choose whether the peace is forced or not. I'll keep that in mind but don't expect anything, probably

    @T_Boy
    yeah man, cool and possible. There is a detail I'll have to check (scripted callbacks) for having it working 100% though. It's the same technical reason I didn't do point A) yet. Should be solvable somehow, I think.
    Last edited by Jake Armitage; February 29, 2020 at 04:26 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Armitage View Post
    @gnosis
    @T_Boy
    yeah man, cool and possible. There is a detail I'll have to check (scripted callbacks) for having it working 100% though. It's the same technical reason I didn't do point A) yet. Should be solvable somehow, I think.
    Youˇre a master tho!!! BRAVO

  16. #16

    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    Quote Originally Posted by valerius karamanus View Post
    Let's say I am Massalia, I sign defensive alliance with Roma. We both declare war on Ligurians, I conquer Genoa and establish Ligurians as my client state. BUT their previous diplomatic treaties remain untouched and Romans are still at war with them. As they continue to hate each other, my diplomatic relations with both also detoriates. We need to solve this by resetting all diplomacy of newly created client state. Hope I described it clearly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Armitage View Post
    ah ok
    yes, it should be doable for both ways
    - Rome is forced to sign peace with liguria
    - the player (Massalia) can't make client state (both through diplomacy panel and as occupy condition) with Liguria if Liguria is at war with a Massalia ally

    I'll surely keep that in mind and do something one day
    Thanks for the input
    Actually, one of my personal lite and elegant solutions for this (without any heavy scripting) is switching every faction from being able to make "client states" to only being able to make "vassals", so the tributary is militarily tied with the ruling faction. That way, in this example, Liguria would immediately make peace with Rome when they become Massalia's vassal. It wouldn't reset diplomatic attitudes/values between Liguria and Rome, but they would be at peace and Rome would have a reason to maintain that, i.e. not risking war with Massalia too, and Liguria's diplomatic relations will most likely match Massalia's over time. I've played a Testudo campaign for about 150 turns like this and it seems to mostly solve the problem. I think when you make a faction a vassal, those at war with them have the option of continuing and going to war with you, but I've never had factions I have good relations with make that decision. I also find it more realistic because unless the ruling faction completely replaces the leadership of its tributary, then the tributary might need some time to get used to their new position and be happy about it. The only factions I've had try to attack my vassals in the campaign so far are one's with a neutral or worse attitude towards me, so factions that wouldn't mind going to war with me anyway. And that way tributaries can't declare war against other tributaries (another nightmare scenario). It mostly solves tributary faction issues but still keeps their interactions a little dynamic because their diplomacy values aren't completely reset and the player has to put a little effort into becoming proper friends with their tributary (e.g. establishing a trade agreement), it's quick and easy to mod in, and doesn't restrict who the player can or can't make a tributary faction.

    Also, in my personal submod I made for myself to use, I adjusted the options available to different factions when they conquer new regions (the occupy, loot, etc, etc options), based on an old mod called "stop barbarian empires". Mine is set so that Barbarian factions can loot, sack, and raze (no occupy option); Hellenstic and Eastern factions can occupy, loot, and sack; and Rome can occupy, loot, and raze; all factions can create vassals and liberate emergent factions. The original "stop barbarian empires" mod actually had Barbarians only able to sack, vassalize, and liberate, but I found that too extreme and the way I have it set still makes me not see a single barbarian faction dominate a large area until a relatively large amount of turns have gone by in the campaign, especially with Testudo.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tenerife_Boy View Post
    Nice mod man, you know what would be cool? the Diplo system of Imperator Rome where depending of your Size you can access X treaties. For example if you are a small kingdom you can only make non agression pacts with other minor factions; BIG ones can create client state (or small ones can look protection this way by big factions. and so on .
    I kinda like the idea of limiting diplomatic options based on faction size or relative factions size between two factions, but part of me wonders if those restrictions are too strict if it will make the campaign too static or favor larger factions too much. If anyone can balance it to work well, it's Jake...


    Quote Originally Posted by gnosis89 View Post
    As always wonderful work Jake. The transfer regions would be amazing as well. That and also somehow making it so that the AI is actually open to peace, especially in wars they are losing, without them having to be utterly beaten (down to one region etc..)
    I feel your pain. Until DIGS/TESTUDO has a solution, we could make use of Cyanide's Easy Diplomacy (just activate for a single turn to force the AI into peace and then turn it off).
    Last edited by Aureliae; March 23, 2020 at 04:45 AM.

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    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    client states / vassals:
    I'll check if there is a guide 'cause I really don't know how they work

  18. #18

    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Armitage View Post
    client states / vassals:
    I'll check if there is a guide 'cause I really don't know how they work
    Well, credit where credit is due, I originally experienced this when playing Ygraine's Data Venia submod in the past and even after no longer using DV I've kept this change, as I've thought it improves the campaign map ever since. Here's a quote from the DV thread:


    • All client-states have been removed.
    • Satrapies have been renamed into Tributaries, and now all factions can create tributaries - allowing for a much more dynamic campaign map.


    Additionally, I've also used Data Venia's tables in my "personal submod" for confederation options. I think it adds more dynamism to the campaign map and more variety from one campaign to another via greater possibilities, a little more historical flavor, and more strategic options for some factions that the player can make use of. Again from the DV thread:


    • Lots of new confederation options (example Pontus, Sinope and Trapezos can confederate into the Mithridatic Kingdom. Parthia, Khorasmii, Dahae and Parthava can confederate into the Arsacid Empire. Steppe nomads can confederate into The Scytho-Sarmatian Horde. Dacians and Thracians can confederate into the Daco-Thracian Kingdom. Several greek (non-successor) factions can confederate into The Greek City-States etc.
    Last edited by Aureliae; March 21, 2020 at 02:39 AM.

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    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    I'll have a look and ask ygraine for more specifics, thx.

  20. #20

    Default Re: [Submod: Diplomacy Limitator] DIGS Alpha_01 [upd: feb.27/20]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Armitage View Post
    I'll have a look and ask ygraine for more specifics, thx.
    I asked Ygraine about the relevant files for the client states/vassals and confederations, just to make sure I got the right ones. But he hasn't responded yet in the DV thread, and who knows what his situation is with the current international pandemic; so just in case it's any help, here are what I think are all of the relevant tables in the Data Venia submod:

    DeI_diplomatic_action_faction_restrictions
    DeI_diplomatic_action_subculture_restrictions
    __Cultures_Subcultures_DeI.loc
    __DV_diplomacy_strings.loc

    I took those exact tables and simply added them to my personal submod with rpfm, and all my campaigns have included them since I started playing DeI with Testudo.

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