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Thread: Please help me understand the state of my campaign (especially Auxilaries, Economy, Intrigue)

  1. #1

    Icon5 Please help me understand the state of my campaign (especially Auxilaries, Economy, Intrigue)

    Hi all,

    Not played DeI since early-2017, pre-Power & Politics. I loaded it back up a few weeks ago but was overwhelmed by the multi-layered systems. I decided to persevere and after watching Jackie Fish's Beginner's Guide to DeI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZBhKv2SGA), Stephen Silverbeard's overview of the Power & Politics update (DeI 1.2.2) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcXtK7jyILs), some of his Let's Plays (1-3 eps of his 2019 Rome, and current Armenia campaigns), and reading lots of Reddit & forum posts about how Rome II's economy works... I could still use some advice, please.

    I'm playing 1.2.5, Normal/Normal, with the Gens Julia, HD Cities and Rome: Total War music submods. It's almost the end of Turn 8 and I'm in a good position with Italy secured, Epirus peaced-out, and trade/positive relations with almost everyone (Syracuse is trading, but hates me because I hate Epirus, and like/trade with Carthage who is currently at war with them. Epirus hates me because I just kicked them out of Italy, killed Phyrros, and am liked by & trading with Carthage).

    I've done a screen dump of where my campaign is up to. Hopefully the screenshots will help illustrate the questions I have below, and also allow you to spot other things to advise me on.

    Political Intrigue / Betrayal

    So I've found wives for all the faction leaders to improve their loyalty, and as I saw Stephen Silverbeard do, I've sent the wives off on a couple of diplomatic missions because it seems to be the cheapest way to rank them up, but 2/3rd of the time they've come back with a negative consequence (Betrayal!), which appear to have no expiration on them? They're pretty dire effects, and I have no idea how to get rid of them:

    • -10% morale for all units
    • -20% research rate
    • -20% wealth from all commerce

    Help! How do I reverse these? Technologies are taking 1-2 turns longer to research than advertised.

    Inept Leader

    Whilst taking the screenshots, I saw this trait which looks awful, and I have no idea where it's coming from because it's not a trait my Faction Leader actually has? He's a sociopath which gives some negative effects, but nothing like what this icon says.

    Where has it come from, and how do I get rid of them?

    Trade / Income / Commerce / Province Management

    It must have been 2016 when I last played Vanilla R2TW. I didn't know a lot then (despite encircling the Meditarrenian with the Romans, and auto-resolving my way into Egypt when it started to get boring). I was earning mega-money but A.) Had only just cottoned on to the theme that higher tier buildings will cost you in food production and/or public order, B.) Still wasn't sure why certain buildings appeared in some regions and not others, C.) Thought economical boost buildings worked on an isolated region-level, rather than a provincial level

    I've read quite a lot of threads/steam/reddit posts over the past couple of days to wrap my head around it and I understand that regions with a trade resource will have an associated capital building, and usually an associated industry building (mines, fisheries, olive gardens etc.), and that unless explicitly stated otherwise, bonuses from buildings are applied provincially, rather than regionally.

    But I am still absolutely lost on how a province should be constructed to maximise the economic output. I understand Latium has absolute gold potential, and I've taken advice to deploy my governor, and garrison my Faction Leader (alone) and build him with managerial traits to capitalise on this, as well as using the Tax Harvesting edict. The province has Salt, Fish, and Wine. I've read Wine is the most profitable, and I've read I should focus on one resource type, but I can't get my head around 'base wealth' (e.g. +300 wealth from industry), '+% wealth' (e.g. +5% wealth from farming), in so much as which is better, how to combine them for maximum effect etc. I also don't understand how economics are grouped, i.e. industry = mining & manufacturing? farming = livestock & agriculture? I've ended up building the corresponding resource building in each region.

    I've included some screenshots of my provincial overviews, and details tabs for both Latium & Italia, but here's my economic breakdown of Latium just to help you to help me understand what it all means:

    ROMA:

    Subsistence - Wealth 507 - Bonuses +20% - Total 608
    Maritime Commerce - Wealth 100 - Bonuses +15% - Total 115
    Entertainment (Culture) - Wealth 75 - Bonuses +40% - Total 105
    Manufacturing (Industry) - Wealth 150 - Bonuses +32% - Total 195
    SUM 1026 (But then next to Roma it shows 1576? Why the difference?)

    ARRETIUM:

    Farming (Agriculture) - Wealth 404 - Bonuses +54% - Total 622
    SUM 622 (Next to Arretium it says 622)

    ARIMINUM:

    Maritime Commerce - Wealth 213 - Bonuses -15.5% - Total 180
    Manufacturing (Industry) - Wealth 180 - Bonuses +20% - Total 216
    SUM 396 (Next to Ariminum it says 396)

    ASCULUM:

    Local Commerce - Wealth 90 - Bonuses +5% - Total 95
    Maritime Commerce - Wealth 418 - Bonuses -16.5% - Total 349
    SUM 444 (Next to Asculum it says 444)

    So I guess I get that +% bonuses give +/- effects to the total of the wealth, but where is -16.5% and -15.5% for Maritime Commerce coming from for Asculum and Ariminum, and why is there a 1% difference despite it being in the same sea territory and only up the road from one another?

    I'm guessing the crazy +54% to Farming in Arretium comes from a +20ish% bonus from the region (can't see because of the 6/6 province effects icon limit), and +30% because it's currently Autumn?

    Just seems so mad and changeable every turn that it's impossible to 'plan' an economy with any degree of certainty?

    Lastly, AoR + Auxiliaries

    Are the images in the DeI guide out of date, because the unit names don't appear to correspond with what I can see available in the building browser?

    As a decade+ player of M2TW's "Stainless Steel" mod, I understand the concept of AoR (why would you be able to recruit a whole roman legion in the middle of the Saudi desert?), and I want to capitalise on the benefit of having numerous troop varieties available to me. Ideally I want Latium to be a Legion-factory, and Italia to be an Alae-factory (I want to field 1 Roman + 1 Alae army together), but looking at the guide maps, it looks like I should:

    AoR:

    Build a Barracks in Latium or Beneventum (9)
    Build a Barracks in Taras (44)
    Build a Barracks in Cosentia (10)

    Auxiliary:

    Build an Auxiliary Barracks anywhere in Italy (I + 6)
    Build an Auxiliary Barracks in Syracuse (A)
    Build an Auxiliary Barracks in Panormos or Akragas (D)

    That seems like a lot of barracks to me. I know the answer is 'that's why you gotta choose', but am I at least understanding the maps right, or as I say, are they outdated?

    Anyway, I think I've asked quite enough there - and this is only 8 turns in! I'm hoping your insight will help me to understand these concepts, and spur me on to actually finish a campaign for once - or rather, get beyond some crushing defeat less than 20 turns in and repeatedly start over (I've saved just after peacing-out Epirus, so I don't have to do all that again!) or just give up - which sums up my experience of the Total War franchise since 2005...

    Thanks in advance for any/all help.
    Last edited by Heskey; February 24, 2020 at 07:06 PM.

  2. #2
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Please help me understand the state of my campaign (especially Auxilaries, Economy, Intrigue)

    diplomatic missions: they have a random dice roll depending on some weight we don't know much about (probably related to gravitas). I wouldn't advice using it honestly. It hasn't been properly balanced by CA, at least not for me.
    Those effects should expire after some turns, there should be a db table controlling the turns but I would have to check, can't remember honestly

    Inept Leader: this is a DeI feature. The script collects leader traits, interpolate them and assign one between 5 values (from worst to best). They will trigger if the leader is not deployed or garrisoned in the capital
    Trade / Income / Commerce / Province Management: can't say much about that 'cause it is pretty complicated, the only way you could understand it fully is by modding the game and understand what is its structure. There are many posts/threads around for this matter, sorry for not being exaustive, hope someone else will

    AoR + Auxiliaries: yeah, could be the guide is outdated, dunno, somone else will know that better than me.
    And yes, the reason is mostly "you gotta choose". Choices add depth to te game and longevity to playability

  3. #3

    Default Re: Please help me understand the state of my campaign (especially Auxilaries, Economy, Intrigue)

    The AOR maps are a little out of date, most of those units should be in those general areas though.

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    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Please help me understand the state of my campaign (especially Auxilaries, Economy, Intrigue)

    Also for AoR units you dont need barracks but your main city building. Adding to that, Rome main city building works like barracks so you dont need regular barracks at all in this province.
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    Default Re: Please help me understand the state of my campaign (especially Auxilaries, Economy, Intrigue)

    Did you read this short guide for economy development https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...-Economy-Guide? Good advice in my opinion.

    Generally I would not make my gameplay too complicated and meta-ish. To understand the optimal way to run the economy is surely quite difficult. To run a sufficient economy is much easier. If you develop the provinces with a certain intuition after reading the provincial benefits, the money will come in. As Rome you have potential for being one of the richest, more or less, quite easily.

    The biggest dangers are sudden crises, dealt with in the guide, e.g. when empire maintenance maims you after an imperium level step or you go into war and lose a lot of income suddenly. I would be careful and never go to my limits with spending all income, and I would also look for enough reserves of food all the time.

    DeI economy is very volatile with big changes from turn to turn quite often. It can be frightening from time to time. I have to admit that I don't understand a lot of the details. Over a longer time and on a larger scale the economy however is quite stable and you can rely on it; I never went bankrupt at least although I'm not an expert at all.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Please help me understand the state of my campaign (especially Auxilaries, Economy, Intrigue)

    Happy to answer any specific economy questions you have either here or on the guide page.

    As for recruitment, I built an auxiliary barracks in consentia and then another in Syracuse once I took it. The rest of Sicily isn’t worth it as the African auxiliaries suck. Greeks, Illyrians, and Gauls are generally the best (Syracuse gets Greeks). So that’s really only two military buildings (plus Roma itself as KAM says) in your first 5 provinces.

    More generally, Roman military recruitment is designed opposite of most factions. Rather than building up population and training in your core provinces, Rome can build auxiliary barracks in border territories and recruit quality troops from 3rd and 4th classes in the periphery.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Please help me understand the state of my campaign (especially Auxilaries, Economy, Intrigue)

    Hi all,

    Thanks for your replies over the past few days. I've read them where possible, but have been too busy at work to reply. This is the first time I've sat down at my PC since initially posting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Armitage View Post
    Inept Leader: this is a DeI feature. The script collects leader traits, interpolate them and assign one between 5 values (from worst to best). They will trigger if the leader is not deployed or garrisoned in the capital
    The FL was deployed on game-start, disbanded and 'travelled' for one turn, and then was deployed as a govenor (one-man army) in Roma. So you mean the mod recognises when they're not being 'used' as a General, i.e. as a 'statesman' and 'in the capital'?

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    Also for AoR units you dont need barracks but your main city building. Adding to that, Rome main city building works like barracks so you dont need regular barracks at all in this province.
    So as Rome, your main region building will produce AoR units, the Aux Barracks will produce romanised auxillary troops, then what do the main barracks produce in non-core faction areas?

    Quote Originally Posted by geala View Post
    Did you read this short guide for economy development https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...-Economy-Guide? Good advice in my opinion.
    Thanks for the link. I've read it a couple of times to be fair, but it might make more sense now that I'm in a position to actually put it into practice. Theory doesn't always translate until it's applied, so let's see!

    I agree with not making gameplay too meta-ish. I'm not interested in maximising profit - I just want to understand what makes the economy tick and what is productive, rather than optimal. Thanks for the feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ptolemaios Soter View Post
    Happy to answer any specific economy questions you have either here or on the guide page.

    ...

    More generally, Roman military recruitment is designed opposite of most factions. Rather than building up population and training in your core provinces, Rome can build auxiliary barracks in border territories and recruit quality troops from 3rd and 4th classes in the periphery.
    Thanks Ptolemaios. I'll read your guide again whilst in-game and see if there's anything I need to clarify after applying it.

    With Taras, I followed some advice to raze cities with less than 50% own-culture so you can easily build up your own citizens rather than getting 50% foreigners, but maybe as Rome that's bad advice.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Please help me understand the state of my campaign (especially Auxilaries, Economy, Intrigue)

    Razing is certainly less important as Rome than as other factions, but having a high native population still has other values (both economic and there’s a faction wide PO penalty if foreigners exceed 50% and scales up from there). I think the culture of the conquered province affects building conversion costs, but it has no effect on population. Instead, conquering the same culture group (as Rome, I think that’s just the Etruscans) yields fewer foreigners and more natives.

    Lastly, as for barracks, pre-Marian reforms the main barracks produces principes, Hastani, and equites, etc. only Italia auxiliary barracks produces the socii equivalents. All other region auxiliary barracks produce their own culture of troops, but that means if you want mainline heavy sword infantry, you’ll need a traditional barracks there in that given province. Now after Marian reforms, the main barracks (again, already incorporated into the Roman main city chain) is the only way to recruit first cohorts, veteran legionaries, etc. but that’s pretty irrelevant if you ask me. So especially after Marian reforms, but potentially throughout the game, you can get by just fine without ever building a regular barracks (if anything, just convert the auxiliary barracks in Consentia to a regular barracks post Marian reform).
    Last edited by Ptolemaios Soter; February 27, 2020 at 03:37 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Please help me understand the state of my campaign (especially Auxilaries, Economy, Intrigue)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ptolemaios Soter View Post
    Razing is certainly less important as Rome than as other factions, but having a high native population still has other values (both economic and there’s a faction wide PO penalty if foreigners exceed 50% and scales up from there). I think the culture of the conquered province affects building conversion costs, but it has no effect on population. Instead, conquering the same culture group (as Rome, I think that’s just the Etruscans) yields fewer foreigners and more natives.

    Lastly, as for barracks, pre-Marian reforms the main barracks produces principes, Hastani, and equites, etc. only Italia auxiliary barracks produces the socii equivalents. All other region auxiliary barracks produce their own culture of troops, but that means if you want mainline heavy sword infantry, you’ll need a traditional barracks there in that given province. Now after Marian reforms, the main barracks (again, already incorporated into the Roman main city chain) is the only way to recruit first cohorts, veteran legionaries, etc. but that’s pretty irrelevant if you ask me. So especially after Marian reforms, but potentially throughout the game, you can get by just fine without ever building a regular barracks (if anything, just convert the auxiliary barracks in Consentia to a regular barracks post Marian reform).
    Agreed, although my UMCenturion mod's patch promotes building the main barracks since veterans and legions are AOR recruited in that one , also, I wanted to specificy that 'Roman main city chain' only refers to the city of Rome itself, not all Roman provincial capitals have an integrated barracks.

  10. #10
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Please help me understand the state of my campaign (especially Auxilaries, Economy, Intrigue)

    The FL was deployed on game-start, disbanded and 'travelled' for one turn, and then was deployed as a govenor (one-man army) in Roma. So you mean the mod recognises when they're not being 'used' as a General, i.e. as a 'statesman' and 'in the capital'?

    Sure, via script (Litharion did that one). There are tons of "conditions" or "payloads" you can set via lua.
    Here's a complete list, even if it won't be easy to understand without actually doing scripts. Most of them are self explanatory though
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...5#post15836305

  11. #11

    Default Re: Please help me understand the state of my campaign (especially Auxilaries, Economy, Intrigue)

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    Also for AoR units you dont need barracks but your main city building. Adding to that, Rome main city building works like barracks so you dont need regular barracks at all in this province.
    Roman barracks in Latium helps you pump out high vet units upon recruitment, IMO, there's real value there when spinning up armies centrally and sending them into whatever direction needs attention.
    Last edited by deeptrance83; February 28, 2020 at 09:15 AM. Reason: words

  12. #12

    Default Re: Please help me understand the state of my campaign (especially Auxilaries, Economy, Intrigue)

    Quote Originally Posted by deeptrance83 View Post
    Roman barracks in Latium helps you pump out high vet units upon recruitment, IMO, there's real value there when spinning up armies centrally and sending them into whatever direction needs attention.
    No. It’s entirely redundant with Roma city’s “campus of mars” effect for recruitment - assuming you’re talking about the “veteran legionary” or “evocati germanica” units. I suppose the 3rd and 4th tier barracks give a minor experience bonus, but you might as well just build a temple of mars instead with the same effect and other bonuses. Even then I would suggested that it’s a waste of the economic potential of Latium, but that’s a matter of preference. From a technical standpoint. Building a barracks gives you access to literally no additional troops.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Please help me understand the state of my campaign (especially Auxilaries, Economy, Intrigue)

    I use plenty of submods and my own personal tweaks to DeI, so I can't give you a script to follow for economics, because some economic values in my campaign will differ from yours, but I can give you some general guidelines. I also tend to base a lot of my building choices off of recorded history and don't min-max most provinces just for wealth (if you want my as close to historical as possible buildings while still trying to maintain a strong game economy for the main provinces of Italy and a few others, I can provide that list).

    Firstly, for your economy and building choices, I would recommend the following:
    Make sure as many as possible province's buildings do not equal out to a negative value for public order or food, because things in DeI like the supply system are affected by those surpluses, which you will need when things like wars or events don't go well. Use DeI's built in region effects to help guide what you build in each region (https://divideetimperamod.com/region-effects/ or https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=727739821).

    As for recruitment and where to build aux barracks:
    Like Dresden said, the maps are actually out of date, but if you have an available slot in a region to build a barracks, right click on it to go into the encyclopedia and you can see exactly what units you can recruit with the different levels of aux barracks at that specific region/province. I think most of the Roman aux units are available throughout their entire province, while only a select few actually require building the barracks in a specific region of a specific province, and some aux units are available throughout multiple provinces. I do not build a barracks in Latium, because the city of Rome provides all the same recruitment benefits. I build an aux barracks in Cosentia, Mediolanum, Syracuse, and Karalis. Even after the Marian reforms I like to keep the aux barracks in Cosentia because you can recruit citizen aux units there, which I only ever use in emergency situations of defending the Peninsula and its immediate area.

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