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Thread: Some suggestions about roman faction

  1. #1
    Semisalis
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    Default Some suggestions about roman faction

    As i was playing another roman campaign i've come up with several ideas/suggestions that i wanted to share in the hope that at least some of them would be implemented like others before (the nice quilted ptolemaic cataphracts come to mind).

    1)Oscan/Samnitic short tunic. Samnites and several oscan tribes used a particular distinctive short tunic well represented in many archeological sources. it would be nice to see it added to those units present in the mod to add even more flavour to them.
    some simple references:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    2) Oscan tribes used a distinctive oval scutum that some authors believe Pyrrhus's army brought back to greece and became the thureos.
    the shield is already used by some italic units in DEI albeit in very few numbers. i think its frequency should be higher as it is very well attested in archeological sources. possibly it should be added to some camillian roman units too.
    3)oscan warriors are always depicted as barefooted. it would be nice to see some men barefooted in the oscan units present in the mod to add more ethnic flavour.
    4)horned saddles were adopted by the romans probably around the 1st century BC. it would be better to remove them from all roman/italic units from around that time period (camillian and polybian) to better represent them.
    5)beside the parma equestris, probably derived form greek cavalry shields, the romans used an own designed called the "popanum" (from its resemblance to a kind of votive cake used in certain religious ceremonies) used probably up to the times of augustus. it would be nice to see it used beside the parma for roman cavalry units.
    references:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    6)early equites were described by polybius to not wear any kind of armor. while this is probably a bit too much, right know in DEI they wear a mix of bronze and linothoraxes for an armor value of 80. to better represent them it would be better to equip them with a mix of linothoraxes and bronze pectorals with the occasional man wearing no armor at all while of course lowering their total armor value. the same is true for most early italic cavalry units (campanians, samnites etc etc).
    7)right now all auxiliary cavalry units present in DEI use the draco as a standard. the draco was probably adopted, among other already existing cavalry standards, during the 2nd century AD. As DEI auxiliary units looks are vaguely based on the augustean/early principate era, the draco is absolutely out of place. it would be better to replace it with regular cloth vexilla already present in the mod. besides i find it a little bit akward, with its tail always inflated even while the unit is stationary.
    8)among the 8 temple avalaible to the romans there are several very important ones missing. namely. Juno, Ceres and Vesta.
    Together with Jupiter and Minerva, Juno (in her aspect of "Regina") was part of what is known as the Capitoline triad. Pratically one of the three most important roman deities.
    -Juno was considered the protectress of the state (remember the sacred geese during the gallic sack of rome? they were sacred to Juno) and women, especially pregnant ones, but also for a connection to war being frequently depicted armed. her temple could replace the sacred grove, giving the highest PO bonus and a good amount of cultural conversion. a bonus to growth or population could be considered to as well as one to defending armies replacing hte one from mars temple.
    -Ceres was mainly an agricultural deity tied to fertility. her cult was particulary important in rome. her temple could provide bonii to farming income, growth and population growth especially lower classes (2nd and 3rd).
    -Vesta. difficult to think of a more typical roman deity. Vesta was mainly the deity of the hearth and house. her temple could provide the highets cultural conversion rate and a fairly good PO bonus.
    9)the remaining temples provide some akward bonii which not always make sense for every deity:
    -Minerva. as one of the elements of the capitoline triad her temple should provide high PO and cultural conversion. she was also the goddess of industry so a better bonus to industrial income could be fitting too(right now it is granted only through edict and at the highest level of the temple)
    -Jupiter. the main roman god, the all-father, god of rightful rule. right now his temple does not providd such good bonii. since his ties with law and order i think bonii to lower banditry and corruption would be fitting. together with a healthy dose of PO an cultural conversion.
    -Neptune. god of water and horses. while neptune is one of the oldest worshipped roman deities it became the god of sea pretty late in its history. at first he was tied to springs and other inner waters while the god portunus was the one thanked for naval victories and the goddess fortuna for protection during sea voyages. there is almost nothing tying him to maritme commerce like it is in the mod now though. probably a higher bonus to sanitation or cavalry exp and/or cost would be more fitting for him.
    -Mercury. as the main deity of commerce and financial gain it could see his financial bonii increased to replace the lost one from neptune temple proposed above. its bonus to commerce should be moved to the commercial stimulation edict instead of the bread and games one in order to stack them and better counter the removal of neptune's temple bonus. and i think his PO bonus should be lowered to better blend with other changes proposed above for other temples.
    10)right now the look of marian pretorian is bit akward. as we all know the pretorian guard was officially founded as the princeps' guard by octavian when he seized power. before this the pretorian were just and ad hoc formation created from among the best soldiers in a legion to escort the general/legatus. so while better equipment could definitely be a possibility certain elements, like scoprions on shields, more closely tied with the later pretorian guard should be avoided as they are totally out of place.
    11)hastati samnitici and principes samnitici both early and late. this units are there to represent the alae of italian socii enrolled by the romans through the "dilectus" and required to fight in a similar way to the romans. the samnites were only one among several other people to provide soldiers to the alae. renaming them to simply socii hastati and socii principes would more fitting.

    i really hope that at least some of my suggestions would be taken in consideration as i think they could add a little bit more of historical flavour and uniqueness to the romans. i have several others in mind that i will share as soon as i can give them a proper shape.
    Last edited by Goffredo85; February 23, 2020 at 05:01 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Some suggestions about roman faction

    1)Oscan/Samnitic short tunic. Samnites and several oscan tribes used a particular distinctive short tunic well represented in many archeological sources. it would be nice to see it added to those units present in the mod to add even more flavour to them.
    some simple references:
    2) Oscan tribes used a distinctive oval scutum that some authors believe Pyrrhus's army brought back to greece and became the thureos.
    the shield is already used by some italic units in DEI albeit in very few numbers. i think its frequency should be higher as it is very well attested in archeological sources. possibly it should be added to some camillian roman units too.
    3)oscan warriors are always depicted as barefooted. it would be nice to see some men barefooted in the oscan units present in the mod to add more ethnic flavour.
    4)horned saddles were adopted by the romans probably around the 1st century BC. it would be better to remove them from all roman/italic units from around that time period (camillian and polybian) to better represent them.
    5)beside the parma equestris, probably derived form greek cavalry shields, the romans used an own designed called the "popanum" (from its resemblance to a kind of votive cake used in certain religious ceremonies) used probably up to the times of augustus. it would be nice to see it used beside the parma for roman cavalry units.
    Apart from 4), these suggestions require texturing/modelling work, so that would depend on finding someone in/outside our team to create them for us.

    6)early equites were described by polybius to not wear any kind of armor. while this is probably a bit too much, right know in DEI they wear a mix of bronze and linothoraxes for an armor value of 80. to better represent them it would be better to equip them with a mix of linothoraxes and bronze pectorals with the occasional man wearing no armor at all while of course lowering their total armor value. the same is true for most early italic cavalry units (campanians, samnites etc etc).
    That shouldn't be hard to adjust, they could retain most of their stats, bar an armor and weight decrease.

    8)among the 8 temple avalaible to the romans there are several very important ones missing. namely. Juno, Ceres and Vesta.
    Together with Jupiter and Minerva, Juno (in her aspect of "Regina") was part of what is known as the Capitoline triad. Pratically one of the three most important roman deities.
    -Juno was considered the protectress of the state (remember the sacred geese during the gallic sack of rome? they were sacred to Juno) and women, especially pregnant ones, but also for a connection to war being frequently depicted armed. her temple could replace the sacred grove, giving the highest PO bonus and a good amount of cultural conversion. a bonus to growth or population could be considered to as well as one to defending armies replacing hte one from mars temple.
    -Ceres was mainly an agricultural deity tied to fertility. her cult was particulary important in rome. her temple could provide bonii to farming income, growth and population growth especially lower classes (2nd and 3rd).
    -Vesta. difficult to think of a more typical roman deity. Vesta was mainly the deity of the hearth and house. her temple could provide the highets cultural conversion rate and a fairly good PO bonus.
    9)the remaining temples provide some akward bonii which not always make sense for every deity:
    -Minerva. as one of the elements of the capitoline triad her temple should provide high PO and cultural conversion. she was also the goddess of industry so a better bonus to industrial income could be fitting too(right now it is granted only through edict and at the highest level of the temple)
    -Jupiter. the main roman god, the all-father, god of rightful rule. right now his temple does not providd such good bonii. since his ties with law and order i think bonii to lower banditry and corruption would be fitting. together with a healthy dose of PO an cultural conversion.
    -Neptune. god of water and horses. while neptune is one of the oldest worshipped roman deities it became the god of sea pretty late in its history. at first he was tied to springs and other inner waters while the god portunus was the one thanked for naval victories and the goddess fortuna for protection during sea voyages. there is almost nothing tying him to maritme commerce like it is in the mod now though. probably a higher bonus to sanitation or cavalry exp and/or cost would be more fitting for him.
    -Mercury. as the main deity of commerce and financial gain it could see his financial bonii increased to replace the lost one from neptune temple proposed above. its bonus to commerce should be moved to the commercial stimulation edict instead of the bread and games one in order to stack them and better counter the removal of neptune's temple bonus. and i think his PO bonus should be lowered to better blend with other changes proposed above for other temples.

    I like the changes to existing temples, but the Romans already got quite a few, so I'm not sure if we'll be adding more of them.


    10)right now the look of marian pretorian is bit akward. as we all know the pretorian guard was officially founded as the princeps' guard by octavian when he seized power. before this the pretorian were just and ad hoc formation created from among the best soldiers in a legion to escort the general/legatus. so while better equipment could definitely be a possibility certain elements, like scoprions on shields, more closely tied with the later pretorian guard should be avoided as they are totally out of place.
    Agreed, https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1591309907 already does this, if you're looking for a momentary solution.


    11)hastati samnitici and principes samnitici both early and late. this units are there to represent the alae of italian socii enrolled by the romans through the "dilectus" and required to fight in a similar way to the romans. the samnites were only one among several other people to provide soldiers to the alae. renaming them to simply socii hastati and socii principes would more fitting.
    Seems logical, there used to be a 2nd socii unit, but this was scrapped, so perhaps the description could be altered as well.
    Last edited by Dardo21; February 24, 2020 at 12:59 PM.

  3. #3
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: Some suggestions about roman faction

    About 1 to 5. yes i know, lets just hope that someone with modelling/texturing skills likes my suggestions and decides to work on them.
    About temples. another option, instead of adding more temples, could be to replace some of the existing ones which had a minor role or a minor impact on gameplay with those proposed above, Nymphaeum>Juno, Vulcan>Vesta, Neptune>Ceres.
    About 10. i know about that mod and used to use it. but after some time i came to the conclusion that the major clipping issues and the quality and variety of some textures was not on the same level of DEI.

    other small suggestions:
    -Legatus Legionis. the marian bodyguard unit. until the reforms made by augustus legates were not in command of a legion. single legions were instead commanded by a council of 6 tribunes. legates were instead selected ad hoc among the friends and clients of a proconsul/propretor with different degrees of authority. an example would be titus labienus during caesar's gallic campaign. he was his senior legate with a role far more important than commandig a single legion at times conducting the whole war during caesar's absence. Thus the unit could be renamed to simply "Legatus" representing one of this liutenants and thus removing the reference to a single legion (Legionis) or maybe just keep calling them equites consulares.
    -military accademy. ther was no such thing as a military accademy were roman would be officers studied their craft. "training" was provided by serving in the staff of a senior commander or by studing avalaible written works in private or public libraries. so the accademy building should be removed and its effects, albeit revised and probably reduced, added to the library building.

  4. #4
    Senator
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    Default Re: Some suggestions about roman faction

    Proposal No. 3 should possibly not need modelling if an existing barefoot man skin model could be used? Recently I changed the variantmeshdefinitions for some Oscan units, like from Samnites, Lukani or Bruttii, to get mostly barefoot soldiers by using a vanilla model from Wrath of Sparta DLC.
    Last edited by geala; February 25, 2020 at 05:52 AM.

  5. #5
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: Some suggestions about roman faction

    Since at least one of my suggestions made it to the main mod (the one about early equites) i will necro my own thread to point out that the excellent mods "Heroes of Zama", "Veterans of Alesia" and "Sons of Mars" by Celticus, have been released. The cavalry "popanum" shield that i prososed above has been modeled and textured in the "Heroes of Zama" mod. So perhaps permission could be obtained to use it in DEI, like other assets by Celticus before. There a lot of other wonderful assests, especially weapons, that could be used to replace some of the older ones in DEI.

  6. #6
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Some suggestions about roman faction

    Hello, new stuff from these mods wont be added to DeI as Celticus said there were more people involved so there are no plans to make it allowed for DeI usage.
    Official DeI Instagram Account! https://www.instagram.com/divideetimperamod/
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  7. #7
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: Some suggestions about roman faction

    How unfortunate. Well at least i tried...

  8. #8

    Default Re: Some suggestions about roman faction

    Some cool suggestions my dude
    Last edited by Falco; July 27, 2020 at 04:32 PM.

  9. #9
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: Some suggestions about roman faction

    Quote Originally Posted by Falco View Post
    Some cool suggestions my dude
    Thanks my friend!

    And here i am with another few suggestions bordering on nitpicking but since we have constantly shrinking and expanding macedonian pikes I'll try the same:
    1)Velites and leves were not organized in their own centuries. They were instead spread among other centuries. Leves were divided between hastati centuries while velites between those of hastati/principes and even triarii.
    My suggestion is therefore to remove the offcers and standard bearer from these two units to better represent their unusual and somewhat irregular way of fighting.
    2)What about using already avalaible assets to make unique camillian officers/standard bearers with a more appropriate look. Right now they sometimes use chainmails or gladii which are a bit out of place for them.
    3) Ligures and Veneti were two populations living in northen Italy, to the east and to the west respectively, with somewhat obscure origins. By the start date of the campaign both were quite celticised, the Ligures far more so.
    While the Ligures were bitter enemies of Rome often siding with their celtcic foes and even with Hannibal, the Veneti always considered themselves to be part of the italic peoples thus always siding with Rome against the Celts and Carthaginians. Livy even states that Veneti troops were present at the battle of Cannae.
    That being said my suggestions are as follows:
    -make starting relations between Rome and Ligures far worse than they are right now so as to make them a constant threat and annoyance for a roman player.
    -make starting relations between Rome and Veneti far better than their are. Right now they are undermined by a silly -4 for trespassing against etruria and a -22 for war against etruria.
    -give the Veneti the generic italic culture present in the mod and give a small italic culture local tradition bonus to northern Italy.
    -while a good work has been done a long time ago to give a unique appereance to both factions to better represent their mixed cultures the same cannot be said for their "shadow" factions (ligures confederation and veneti confederation). They are just two generic celtic looking factions. I think all that these would require to modify the startpos, so i do not expect them to be taken into consideration.

  10. #10
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: Some suggestions about roman faction

    Time for another post this time about the pretorian units.
    -As i already mentioned in my first post the looks of marian preatorian are quite out of place, but i think that even the names of marian/imperial pretorians have been switched in the mod. In fact marian ones are called "cohors praetoria" (pretorian cohort) while the imperial ones are called "custodes praetori" (guards of the pretorium, the tent of the army commander). I think that "cohors pretoria" would be a more fitting name to the imperial ones as it suggest a more stable and official organization compared to "custodes praetori" which in turn seems more fitting to the marian ones.
    -Equites Singulares. Not quite sure what this unit is trying to represent. Their description says they are pretorian cavalry, their name implies a connection to the equites singulares augusti, and their looks (which are awesome btw) are a mix of german/gallic auxilia, legionary cavalry and high ranking romans. They can be used as a bodyguard and can be recruited in limited amounts as normal units.
    There are several things which are confusing and a little bit out of place.
    "Equites singulares augusti" were not the cavalry arm of the pretorian guard. In fact they were a completly different kind of more "close" bodyguard. They were mostly recruited from among germans (especially batavi) and probably pratolled the interior of the palace in which the emperor resided while the pretorians patrolled the exterior. There is some uncertainty regarding who created them. It is believed it was either Domitian or Trajan, the latter probably taking inspiration by both his german singulares while he was governor of germany and the earlier "germani corporis custodes" created by augustus which basically performed the same duties until disbanded by Galba (one of the reasons of the batavian revolt).
    Equites singulares, without the augusti reference, could also refer to the personal foreign bodyguards used by provincial governors around the empire in the same time frame. Of course these men were not necessarily drawn from germans but more likely from among the auxiliary cavalry units at their disposal. they were not a standing corps of course but were deatched from their orignal units.
    Some historians believe that only provincial governors were entitled to form singulares units while legates usually used the legionary cavalry component as ad hoc bodyguards.
    Now since imperial DEI units are inspired by augustean/early empire timeframe i think that equites singulares are not a good reference for a bodyguard unit as they appeared far later. Besides they, as the germani before them, strictly guarded the person of the emperor and not every general/governor around the empire. Finally they were very few in numbers so i don't think that making a unit inspired by them is really worth it.
    What i think is the best way to represent this kind of units is to:
    -make a separate recruitable pretorian cavalry unit with a very small global cap. Make this unit recuritable only in Roma itself. They could be used to accompany any general in battle, as pretorians sometimes did in particualr important campaigns.
    -rename the equites "singulares" to something else and remove the german/gallic looking men. While it makes sense for a governor from germany/gaul to use locals as bodyguards it would be less justifiable for a governor stationed, let's say, in syria to use germans, as renowned as they could be, instead of locals. besides it seems that different ethnicities were seldom mixed in the same unit and that a provincial governor would have either selected legionary cavalry or cavalry auxilia as his bodyguards. Thus a more generic "roman" look would be more fitting indipendently of were our general are stationed.
    -while we are at it make infantry pretorians only recuitable in Roma as they were stationed there.

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