The importance of taking Carthage

[Roma_Victrix]

This really cannot be understated: if you are not Carthage and you want a functioning economy at all, you simply have to take this city. Period. I usually don't even notice it, but it was so stark in my latest campaign as Makedonia (on turn 350 at the moment). For over 300 turns I frequently languished in financial turmoil with periods of 20+ turns in debt or watching the "queues stalled" notice every other turn due to having limited funds. With an only modestly growing and often dramatically shrinking budget on a seemingly wild, sporadic basis, I never knew when the next crisis would leave me crippled as I faced hordes of enemies from four to five enemy factions all at once. Through sheer grit and determination, rarely auto-solving battles, I somehow managed to blitz the Mediterranean world and recruit enough troops to keep most of my provinces in the yellow or green territory while gradually expanding.

All of this has changed since I recently took Carthage. I wasn't quite yet done stomping the Romans, who still retained three provinces in Italy at the time, and BAM, the funds came in like a tidal wave for building new armies and naval fleets to combat the constant harassment of enemy fleets blockading a dozen of my ports. With the once daunting Carthaginian navy dismantled, I was quickly able to dominate the Mediterranean and the Black Sea, keeping Hayasdan at bay by defeating their fleets and turning the tables by blockading them instead. My funds have skyrocketed to a whopping 350,000 to 400,000 mnai on a rather consistent basis, even after building large ports and mines.

The Ptolemies have made the foolish error of deciding only now to challenge me again 30 some years after I took the Libyan desert bordering Egypt and Alexandria in the Nile Delta region (effectively kicking them out of the Mediterranean), and recently the Sinai from the Seleucids. It's a mistake that'll cost them dearly because now I have enough funds to just slop together an unstoppable train of huge armies and spam them into nonexistence with fresh recruits from all across the Eastern Mediterranean. I doubt the Ptolemies will exist by the time turn 400 rolls around, given the forces I've already arrayed against them.

Has anyone else experienced this giant economic boost after taking Carthage or some other important city? I noticed a little uptick after taking Alexandria, Pergamon, and Antioch, but they were incredibly modest compared to this. I'm basically an unstoppable behemoth now and it's so satisfying after dealing with everyone's annoying bull crap for so long.

[Rad]

Silly non-Carthage player, of course having Carthage is important! It's the best city in the world!

[paleologos]

@Roma_Victrix:
Did you ever start a campaign as the Carthaginians?

[Roma_Victrix]

@Roma_Victrix:
Did you ever start a campaign as the Carthaginians?

I've only done an 85-90 turn play through with Carthage. It was not a serious attempt or long-term campaign like my others, although I have played as the Romans in a 1000-turn campaign, so not just as various Hellenistic Greek factions. This thread isn't about that, though. This thread is about the monumental economic importance of *taking Carthage* as any other faction. Seriously, the economic boost from taking this one settlement seems about equivalent to taking the whole of Ptolemaic Egypt if you are not already the Ptolemaic faction.

Silly non-Carthage player, of course having Carthage is important! It's the best city in the world!

Cries in Chinese while sitting in the courtyard of the Qin dynasty's royal palace in Xianyang, China.

[Rad]

Imagine owning fully developed Carthage without any corruption penalties

[nvm]

It's not that good. You say you are playing as Makedonia, have you ever noticed that Pella's income goes from 2k early to 9k once you fully develop it?

[Roma_Victrix]

Imagine owning fully developed Carthage without any corruption penalties

Cheers wildly in Punic; sighs longingly in Semitic.

It's not that good. You say you are playing as Makedonia, have you ever noticed that Pella's income goes from 2k early to 9k once you fully develop it?

Uh, no. You are confusing two very different things. I'm not talking about the individual income of one settlement over another. While you are correct that a fully developed Pella with the second-tier mining complex can rake in more money than Qart-Hadast (or "Karchedon" in Greek), it was only a marginal thing keeping my economy afloat. After taking Carthage and vanquishing their faction altogether, my overall economy witnessed an unmistakably huge boost, leaping hundreds of thousands of mnai in less than 50 turns! With the Western Mediterranean no longer a war zone threatened by frequent naval landings and enemy fleets blockading half my ports, choking off trade income in various settlements from southern Gaul to the Iberian to Italian peninsulas, virtually all my settlements in that region are finally thriving financially. Ending costly wars and conquering new territories to bring in new sources of taxable income are also responsible for this.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I also think trade with own provinces is more profitable then with the foreign. And if you're at war with that faction, there's no trade whatsoever.

[BailianSteel]

Imagine owning fully developed Carthage without any corruption penalties

And a literal double digit reserve of heavy infantry, even if they are budget heavy.

All of this has changed since I recently took Carthage. I wasn't quite yet done stomping the Romans, who still retained three provinces in Italy at the time, and BAM, the funds came in like a tidal wave for building new armies and naval fleets to combat the constant harassment of enemy fleets blockading a dozen of my ports. With the once daunting Carthaginian navy dismantled, I was quickly able to dominate the Mediterranean and the Black Sea, keeping Hayasdan at bay by defeating their fleets and turning the tables by blockading them instead. My funds have skyrocketed to a whopping 350,000 to 400,000 mnai on a rather consistent basis, even after building large ports and mines.

Has anyone else experienced this giant economic boost after taking Carthage or some other important city? I noticed a little uptick after taking Alexandria, Pergamon, and Antioch, but they were incredibly modest compared to this. I'm basically an unstoppable behemoth now and it's so satisfying after dealing with everyone's annoying bull crap for so long.

I've gotten bizarrely massive gains from capturing cities before, but nothing like that. The highest I remember getting is around 10,000 mnai. That Afriqim grain's gotta be something else.

(In all seriousness, a precious resource being undiscovered/lost in your empire suddenly being exported across your holdings is the only explanation I could come up with.)

Cries in Chinese while sitting in the courtyard of the Qin dynasty's royal palace in Xianyang, China.

Which palace? Qin built a crapton of those.

[Roma_Victrix]

I also think trade with own provinces is more profitable then with the foreign. And if you're at war with that faction, there's no trade whatsoever.

Exactly! Eliminating the presence of nearby enemy provinces and having multiple provinces finally being connected by paved roads or trading by sea dramatically increases your trade income. Also yes, being at war with another big empire can ruin your economy if the war drags on for more than 15 turns or so.

I've gotten bizarrely massive gains from capturing cities before, but nothing like that. The highest I remember getting is around 10,000 mnai. That Afriqim grain's gotta be something else.

(In all seriousness, a precious resource being undiscovered/lost in your empire suddenly being exported across your holdings is the only explanation I could come up with.)

I think it has more to do with the fact that I didn't just take Carthage, but also everything around Carthage, the entire Maghreb minus the deep southern interior, which I have left to the Numidians after turning them into a tributary client state. I destroyed the Carthaginian faction and not long after that the Roman one, eliminating any resistance to my rule over the Western Mediterranean. This means that every single city in that region that suffered from a perpetual trade loss due to frequent warfare and blockades are now doubling their previous levels of trade income.

Which palace? Qin built a crapton of those.

Take your pick! I could have also argued for Alexandria in Ptolemaic Egypt but the mammoth size of several Chinese cities during the Han and Qin dynasties usually gets overlooked in these parts if we're talking about urban demographics in antiquity.

[BailianSteel]

I think it has more to do with the fact that I didn't just take Carthage, but also everything around Carthage, the entire Maghreb minus the deep southern interior, which I have left to the Numidians after turning them into a tributary client state. I destroyed the Carthaginian faction and not long after that the Roman one, eliminating any resistance to my rule over the Western Mediterranean. This means that every single city in that region that suffered from a perpetual trade loss due to frequent warfare and blockades are now doubling their previous levels of trade income.

That makes more sense, Italy and Africa are very wealthy areas, perhaps even wealthier than Hellas. Fluctuations in trade, thanks to warfare and blockades, has affected my income by several thousands. Though I doubt all those resource icons on the strategic map are there for eye candy...

Take your pick! I could have also argued for Alexandria in Ptolemaic Egypt but the mammoth size of several Chinese cities during the Han and Qin dynasties usually gets overlooked in these parts if we're talking about urban demographics in antiquity.

Preaching to the Terracotta Army here, though I'm no academic. Ever heard of Chang'an 26 BCE, by Michael Nylan and Griet Vankeerberghen? It's filled with interesting information about the Qin/Western Han capital Chang'an, and about the capital region, Guanzhong.

[Roma_Victrix]

That makes more sense, Italy and Africa are very wealthy areas, perhaps even wealthier than Hellas. Fluctuations in trade, thanks to warfare and blockades, has affected my income by several thousands. Though I doubt all those resource icons on the strategic map are there for eye candy...

Precisely. At this point (past turn 360) I also think it's about the scale and scope of my empire with a massive internal economy that can sustain itself even as several smaller bordering factions are foolishly trying to bully me, the bigger one. It's not just Greece, Italy, and the Maghreb combined, it's also the western half of Anatolia, the Nile Delta, Syria, Crimea, Thrace, Illyria, the Mediterranean island provinces, southern Gaul and western Iberia/Hispania being taxed by one authority and able to share trading routes without the disturbance of warfare.

Preaching to the Terracotta Army here, though I'm no academic. Ever heard of Chang'an 26 BCE, by Michael Nylan and Griet Vankeerberghen? It's filled with interesting information about the Qin/Western Han capital Chang'an, and about the capital region, Guanzhong.

I haven't read that book in particular, no, but I do have plenty of books about ancient China, by Patricia Ebrey for instance, as well as several tomes by Joseph Needham. Thanks for sharing the reference. In either case Chang'an and Luoyang were roughly on par with Athens and the city of Rome during their respective heydays.

[paleologos]

I've only done an 85-90 turn play through with Carthage. It was not a serious attempt or long-term campaign like my others, although I have played as the Romans in a 1000-turn campaign, so not just as various Hellenistic Greek factions. This thread isn't about that, though. This thread is about the monumental economic importance of *taking Carthage* as any other faction. Seriously, the economic boost from taking this one settlement seems about equivalent to taking the whole of Ptolemaic Egypt if you are not already the Ptolemaic faction.

My point was -in case such a point can be made- that owning one very developed, very wealthy region may not be enough to sustain large armies and fleets.
If you play as Carthage you may find that you are languishing until you conquer some other very developed, very wealthy region.

Also, what Jurand said:

I also think trade with own provinces is more profitable then with the foreign. And if you're at war with that faction, there's no trade whatsoever.

After taking a city that can trade so richly, several of your previously owned regions will have one of their trading links diverted to Carthage.
I am not sure that Carthage is unique about that but I won't dispute that it stands out among other similar instances.

[Rad]

I have also noticed that developed Carthage massively boosts the profit of its neighboring cities. Good trade routes, I guess.

[Septentrionalis]

Something like that happened to me once when I took a fairly developed Macedonian city. There was a huge population increase and increased income for many turns, albeit not as drastic as what Roma Victrix describes. But I remember it starting an era of rapid development on a wider scale and that someone on the forums described it as a feature and not a glitch.

I would double check the name of the city, but suddenly the launcher keeps starting Medieval instead of EB. I need to fix that somehow.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I'd just add that the trade system in Medieval 2 is way, way more sophisticated and rational than the one in Rome 2 or Attila. The first move you do in R2TW-DeI is to send your admiral into the voyage around the world to get contacts with any faction possible and to get trade. This is so unrealistic that I can't bear it. Same with the resources - you can procure it from any part in the world if you've got trade rights...

The Medieval 2 system is as realistic as possible, in comparison.

[Slaytaninc]

Like any true Roman I will exterminate then destroy all the buildings in Carthage.

I'll then rename it Carthago and rebuild it pretending I'm Julius Caesar. So what if it will take a century to be worth rebuilding. I don't?

[Lusitanio]

Like any true Roman I will exterminate then destroy all the buildings in Carthage.

I'll then rename it Carthago and rebuild it pretending I'm Julius Caesar. So what if it will take a century to be worth rebuilding. I don't?

There was something special for people like you in Qart-Hadasht, involving crucifixion...

[Lusitanio]

I've only done an 85-90 turn play through with Carthage.

Roma is just waiting for my submod to play a grand campaign with Carthage

[Roma_Victrix]

My point was -in case such a point can be made- that owning one very developed, very wealthy region may not be enough to sustain large armies and fleets.
If you play as Carthage you may find that you are languishing until you conquer some other very developed, very wealthy region.

Also, what Jurand said:

After taking a city that can trade so richly, several of your previously owned regions will have one of their trading links diverted to Carthage.
I am not sure that Carthage is unique about that but I won't dispute that it stands out among other similar instances.

Right, there always has to be a large core of your empire that is far from the battlefront or enemy provinces in order to thrive financially. These things just came into much sharper focus when I took Carthage as opposed to Capua in Italy, Massalia in Gaul, or Gadeira in Iberia. The economic benefit of that achievement was stunning and almost immediate. Or as my sponsors would prefer it to be said, it felt like pounding a big bottle of Glacier Freeze Gatorade™ after running a marathon.

Something like that happened to me once when I took a fairly developed Macedonian city. There was a huge population increase and increased income for many turns, albeit not as drastic as what Roma Victrix describes. But I remember it starting an era of rapid development on a wider scale and that someone on the forums described it as a feature and not a glitch.

I would double check the name of the city, but suddenly the launcher keeps starting Medieval instead of EB. I need to fix that somehow.

You're probably talking about Pella, which we have discussed above. There are just certain settlements that you get rewarded for taking and it makes sense historically speaking. A huge reason for the success of Philip II of Macedon, aside from his use of artillery, phalanx military reforms and army's superior tactics, was his kingdom's newfound logistical capabilities ensured by a steady flow of mining precious metals to fund the army and navy.

I'd just add that the trade system in Medieval 2 is way, way more sophisticated and rational than the one in Rome 2 or Attila. The first move you do in R2TW-DeI is to send your admiral into the voyage around the world to get contacts with any faction possible and to get trade. This is so unrealistic that I can't bear it. Same with the resources - you can procure it from any part in the world if you've got trade rights...

The Medieval 2 system is as realistic as possible, in comparison.

Heh, it takes me a long time, but I still do that anyway, forming diplomatic contacts and trade relations with all the factions of the map by turn 100 or so.

There was something special for people like you in Qart-Hadasht, involving crucifixion...

I suddenly remember that Rome Total War general's speech: "Carthaginians...their foul baby-killing is only the start of their wickedness!"

Roma is just waiting for my submod to play a grand campaign with Carthage

Is there a notification bell that can alert me when you have the big release day? I won't be playing as Makedonia forever and Carthage would be a great faction to return to afterwards since I've already had my fill playing as the Romans.