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Thread: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

  1. #1
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    Default intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    hello all

    as we all know (I hope so a least) intel is hopelessly outclassed by AMD these days with AMD having more cores threads and less security issues

    but there is one point in which intel remains strong: single core performance

    the intell 9900K can be overclocked to 5.0 GHZ on all cores if I remember right while ryzen 3900 (I hope I compare the right versions) can only hit 4.8 GHZ on one core

    is there any chance for AMD to beat this relatievely small difference anytime soon or is it not worth the effort to invest in for them?
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    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Huh. That's impressive, 4.8ghz on a single core now? That makes AMD a more viable competitor than I previously realized. No wonder they have Intel scrambling.

    My own 8086k easily hits 5ghz (because they were essentially binned chips) I never noticed any real difference from its normal clock speed to this one. The difference between 4800mhz/5000mhz is around 4% I'd say. Not a very big difference to begin with, and it's basically just for the number (5ghz sounds cooler if you ever say it).

    However, if a game uses multi cores an additional few cores is far more than a 4% increase (meaning AMD would win there). Only triple A titles of the newest generation generally pull through in that respect.
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    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    agreed AMD is a very hard competitor now they even put out a ryzen that has 64 cores while intel in the closest market can only put 56

    and that is not their epic platform no that is a "normal" ryzen only difference right now as far as I understand it is that their epic platform can handle more memory

    so to put it simply they put out a server for at home kind of thing really impressive


    so I am wondering whether intel will be able to hit back with their 7NM process in 2021 since thy could not even mange to do a 10NM process properly

    I heard recently that they will put out a few 10 NM products but aside from that they will just focus their efforts on 7NM I could not find a good source for that however
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    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    The i9-9900k already has 8 cores/16 Threads, so it's honestly just going to be better in 99% of games than AMD. That said, AMD is just a better buy imo. I mean what's the point of spending 400$ on an i7-9700K or 500$+ on an i9-9900K for 5% more performance? The R7-3700X is 329$ and has a TDP of 65W? It's an absurdity from a price/performance standpoint. If you're trying to max out and build the best gaming machine, fair enough. If you're actually trying save and get the most out of your money, then it makes little sense to go Intel.

    At the high-end it's even worse lul. Are there reasons to go Intel? Yes, but I imagine for most enterprise and productivity-oriented customers, AMD typically has better options in their product stack. For 80% of all use scenarios, AMD is generally better. More cores for better performance, more options for each product segment, and from what I can tell, an ability to make custom solutions for large orders. I mean there's a reason why consoles use AMD, and it ain't because nobody wants Sony's and Microsoft's business.

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    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    I'm not going to cirklejerk AMD, but

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    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Advanced Micro Devices has incredible momentum, and apparently already has the next generation ready for production, which would remain on the AM4 socket, and unlikely to increase the number of cores, theoretically available for sale by the fourth quarter of this year.

    Whether or not they'll bother doing so remains up in the air, since for the next three years Intel won't even be in competition; the Wuhan virus is also likely to push back any technological schedules by a season. The real driver for gaming performances will be the new consoles by Sony and Microsoft, whose innards are basically going to eight core/sixteen thread Ryzens and Navi graphic cores, which means any new games are likely going to be optimized for mid range Ryzen Fives, which would be the general answer to any question regarding as to how many cores you're likely to need for the next five years or so.

    I doubt that new Ryzen generations are going to be cheaper nor budget orientated, since with sixteen core desktop and sixty four core Threadripper high end, Advance Micro Devices clearly enjoy the lead in halo products. Anyone interested in budget variants can purchase previous generation Ryzens, that are clearly more than capable of fulfilling most user requirements, and there already is a production line to upscale previous fourteen nanometre Sixteen Hundreds to twelve nanometres, so as each process becomes superceded, could use that now spare capacity to manufacture last year's models more efficiently and cheaper.

    Long term, the real prize is the server market, that the increasingly insecure Intel architecture will eventually force wholesale defections from their loyal customer base.

    Right now, the battle ground is going to be for the lucrative laptop space, as the current iterations of low power Ryzens are now within spitting distance of Intel performance, and combined with better pricing and Intel production crunch, leaves a large gap to be exploited; if the Ryzen chips hit five nanometres (presumably end of next year) before Intel can retool to seven nanometres (scheduled Twenty Twenty Two, knock on wood), they could easily lose half the market.

    As has been said before, no purchasing manager will lose his job for buying Intel, but that's because very few members of a company board or chief executives understand this technology.

    There's no point future proofing your personal computers, since Advanced Micro Systems have the bit between their teeth and will push their current technological advantage for all it's worth, giving priority to the Epyc server chips, and with Ryzen Four, move on to socket AM5, that will allow a greater number of cores on the desktop, presumable thirty two, DDR5, USB 4.0, and maybe PCIe 5.0 beginning Twenty Twenty Three.

    Intel is far from out, since if all else fails, they have more than enough money to buy out every start up technological firm in existence, and hope that with this new portfolio, they'll find something to catch up.

    Or, like IBM, move on to greener pastures.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    I don't recall any Intel manufacturing facilities in China tbh, and I don't think any of TSMCs facilities are affected either. The coronavirus is likely to affect several supply chains, but I think for most of us, things will be mostly on-track barring the usual delays. Regarding AMD's market position, quite frankly I think they got lucky. Software development has gotten better at using lots of threads, and while gaming is still limited in that regard, professional applications have gone from benefiting significantly to core counts being the deciding factor in how fast an application finishes its task. Major oversimplification of course, but honestly a lot of the stuff involved flies over my head. Software development is about as exciting to me as jurisprudence. So honestly, if it wasn't for advances in semiconductor lithography and software development, AMD would probably be in the same position, market wise, as it was during the Phenom-Phenom II days. Which weren't bad, all things considered. Honestly I still think AMD should've continued developing the K10 Architecture.

    Right now, the battle ground is going to be for the lucrative laptop space, as the current iterations of low power Ryzens are now within spitting distance of Intel performance, and combined with better pricing and Intel production crunch, leaves a large gap to be exploited; if the Ryzen chips hit five nanometres (presumably end of next year) before Intel can retool to seven nanometres (scheduled Twenty Twenty Two, knock on wood), they could easily lose half the market.
    I was with you on board until this part. The laptop isn't that lucrative for anyone to be honest, what drives it isn't really margins, but volume. High-end machines are always lucrative and Apple has managed to print money with any product they stick their logo on... but there's a reason why many manufacturers have straight up left the laptop consumer market. The high-end laptop market is becoming extremely competitive, and everything that's not premium is fighting on value, which means less and less profit margins. Sadly, with the vast majority of PC needs increasingly turning to mobile, laptops and mobile processing is increasingly more important to both AMD, Intel, and hardware manufacturers. The difference between 2010 and 2020 in regards to mobile is just massive.

    To be honest, I don't think AMD needs to put too many resources into this market, it's not really worth it if you ask me. The margins can be pretty , and AMD is already limited by wafer capacity. Allocating additional wafers to mobile will mean foregoing more lucrative Epyc and Ryzen parts. They could always buy more wafers from TSMC but why? Epyc and Ryzen area selling like hotcakes already. Honestly, everyone was surprised by AMD's mobile 4000 series announcement, it's not very logical from a business perspective.

    There's no point future proofing your personal computers, since Advanced Micro Systems have the bit between their teeth and will push their current technological advantage for all it's worth, giving priority to the Epyc server chips, and with Ryzen Four, move on to socket AM5, that will allow a greater number of cores on the desktop, presumable thirty two, DDR5, USB 4.0, and maybe PCIe 5.0 beginning Twenty Twenty Three.
    I'm hoping to get on Zen 3 platform. I bought a 4790k platform a few years ago and it's served me very very well. I'm hoping I can replicated this with Zen 3.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    The i9-9900k already has 8 cores/16 Threads, so it's honestly just going to be better in 99% of games than AMD. That said, AMD is just a better buy imo. I mean what's the point of spending 400$ on an i7-9700K or 500$+ on an i9-9900K for 5% more performance? The R7-3700X is 329$ and has a TDP of 65W? It's an absurdity from a price/performance standpoint. If you're trying to max out and build the best gaming machine, fair enough. If you're actually trying save and get the most out of your money, then it makes little sense to go Intel.

    At the high-end it's even worse lul. Are there reasons to go Intel? Yes, but I imagine for most enterprise and productivity-oriented customers, AMD typically has better options in their product stack. For 80% of all use scenarios, AMD is generally better. More cores for better performance, more options for each product segment, and from what I can tell, an ability to make custom solutions for large orders. I mean there's a reason why consoles use AMD, and it ain't because nobody wants Sony's and Microsoft's business.
    agreed especially on the console part

    Quote Originally Posted by King Athelstan View Post
    I'm not going to cirklejerk AMD, but

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    LOL that is how it works yes spot on +rep

    I wonder what intel will do next year if they cannot get 7NM working will they up the TWP or whatever the measuring unit is called like AMD did in the past?

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    Advanced Micro Devices has incredible momentum, and apparently already has the next generation ready for production, which would remain on the AM4 socket, and unlikely to increase the number of cores, theoretically available for sale by the fourth quarter of this year.

    Whether or not they'll bother doing so remains up in the air, since for the next three years Intel won't even be in competition; the Wuhan virus is also likely to push back any technological schedules by a season. The real driver for gaming performances will be the new consoles by Sony and Microsoft, whose innards are basically going to eight core/sixteen thread Ryzens and Navi graphic cores, which means any new games are likely going to be optimized for mid range Ryzen Fives, which would be the general answer to any question regarding as to how many cores you're likely to need for the next five years or so.

    I doubt that new Ryzen generations are going to be cheaper nor budget orientated, since with sixteen core desktop and sixty four core Threadripper high end, Advance Micro Devices clearly enjoy the lead in halo products. Anyone interested in budget variants can purchase previous generation Ryzens, that are clearly more than capable of fulfilling most user requirements, and there already is a production line to upscale previous fourteen nanometre Sixteen Hundreds to twelve nanometres, so as each process becomes superceded, could use that now spare capacity to manufacture last year's models more efficiently and cheaper.

    Long term, the real prize is the server market, that the increasingly insecure Intel architecture will eventually force wholesale defections from their loyal customer base.

    Right now, the battle ground is going to be for the lucrative laptop space, as the current iterations of low power Ryzens are now within spitting distance of Intel performance, and combined with better pricing and Intel production crunch, leaves a large gap to be exploited; if the Ryzen chips hit five nanometres (presumably end of next year) before Intel can retool to seven nanometres (scheduled Twenty Twenty Two, knock on wood), they could easily lose half the market.

    As has been said before, no purchasing manager will lose his job for buying Intel, but that's because very few members of a company board or chief executives understand this technology.

    There's no point future proofing your personal computers, since Advanced Micro Systems have the bit between their teeth and will push their current technological advantage for all it's worth, giving priority to the Epyc server chips, and with Ryzen Four, move on to socket AM5, that will allow a greater number of cores on the desktop, presumable thirty two, DDR5, USB 4.0, and maybe PCIe 5.0 beginning Twenty Twenty Three.

    Intel is far from out, since if all else fails, they have more than enough money to buy out every start up technological firm in existence, and hope that with this new portfolio, they'll find something to catch up.

    Or, like IBM, move on to greener pastures.
    I really hope intel stays in business for competitions sake

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    I don't recall any Intel manufacturing facilities in China tbh, and I don't think any of TSMCs facilities are affected either. The coronavirus is likely to affect several supply chains, but I think for most of us, things will be mostly on-track barring the usual delays. Regarding AMD's market position, quite frankly I think they got lucky. Software development has gotten better at using lots of threads, and while gaming is still limited in that regard, professional applications have gone from benefiting significantly to core counts being the deciding factor in how fast an application finishes its task. Major oversimplification of course, but honestly a lot of the stuff involved flies over my head. Software development is about as exciting to me as jurisprudence. So honestly, if it wasn't for advances in semiconductor lithography and software development, AMD would probably be in the same position, market wise, as it was during the Phenom-Phenom II days. Which weren't bad, all things considered. Honestly I still think AMD should've continued developing the K10 Architecture.



    I was with you on board until this part. The laptop isn't that lucrative for anyone to be honest, what drives it isn't really margins, but volume. High-end machines are always lucrative and Apple has managed to print money with any product they stick their logo on... but there's a reason why many manufacturers have straight up left the laptop consumer market. The high-end laptop market is becoming extremely competitive, and everything that's not premium is fighting on value, which means less and less profit margins. Sadly, with the vast majority of PC needs increasingly turning to mobile, laptops and mobile processing is increasingly more important to both AMD, Intel, and hardware manufacturers. The difference between 2010 and 2020 in regards to mobile is just massive.

    To be honest, I don't think AMD needs to put too many resources into this market, it's not really worth it if you ask me. The margins can be pretty , and AMD is already limited by wafer capacity. Allocating additional wafers to mobile will mean foregoing more lucrative Epyc and Ryzen parts. They could always buy more wafers from TSMC but why? Epyc and Ryzen area selling like hotcakes already. Honestly, everyone was surprised by AMD's mobile 4000 series announcement, it's not very logical from a business perspective.



    I'm hoping to get on Zen 3 platform. I bought a 4790k platform a few years ago and it's served me very very well. I'm hoping I can replicated this with Zen 3.
    I would expect more of a shift to the mobile market in the next years because more people do everything on their smartphone and no longer own a desktop as far as I know
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  9. #9

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    A smartphone and a laptop. I've worked in quite a few places. Workstations and x86 isn't going anywhere, but in terms of the form factor, laptops are steadily replacing Desktops for most office applications. Unless you actually need serious CPU/GPU horsepower, chances are your employer will eventually replace that desktop with a laptop. Some campuses simply have monitors and desks. They expect you to use your company issued laptop to plug in and get work done.

    Like I said before, it is nice that AMD plans to compete in mobile, it is a large part of the market after all, but the margins are pretty crap. Intel is on 10nm for mobile actually, but Ice Lake is honestly a bit "meh", and Intel hasn't put on any marketing muscle into the upcoming Comet Lake. It's going to be Comet Lake vs Zen 3 and AMD might actually beat Intel on gaming with the way rumors are going.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    sorry for the late response I forgot about this thread

    interesting but logical development because what does a desktop add unless you really need it like you said

    yeah I am interested to see whether zen 3 will beat intel completely in terms of IPC they do right now in same cases and not in others

    when will the first zen 3 CPU's be released according to rumors
    Last edited by ♔atthias♔; February 15, 2020 at 04:30 AM.
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    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

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  12. #12

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    This is probably the year for graphics and APUs, as Zen Four gets ramped up for launch at the end of next year, which means that laptops could be really interesting as a Christmas present.

    I'm thinking of getting two or three seven nanometre APUs when they come out, which can probably be mated with cheap four hundred series chipsets, though five fifties and five twenties might have more attractive features, than just being rehashes of the three hundred series chipsets.

    APUs will serve as laptop ersatz, since I got rid of my last one last year; a pair of Samsung tablets work as mobile entertainment, and despite Huawei dumping their phones (and tablets), haven't felt the need to update my old one.

    Ultralite laptops should be both cheap enough, have endurance and respectable performance by the end of the year, so you'll probably have three categories of laptops, personal, work, and gaming, so picking up a discounted version next year seems pretty good option.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    What are you planning to use the APUs for?

  14. #14

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Laptop ersatz; I station them around, combined with cheap components and a non eye straining large screen.

    I realized the game had changed once I got hold of a 2200G; I also use older models as burner PCs, hence my interest in cheap components. When I travel overseas, I take one along, and it doesn't matter if the firmware or BIOS get infected, since it's not coming back; the onboard gumstick gets wiped when it's time to leave, anything important is on an SSD or another gumstick, and anything personal on an old hard drive.

    The 3200G is an improvement, but not significantly enough; however I have hopes for the 4200G, and all these are priced at around a hundred bucks.

    I have bought a second hand 1200 in case I have to update older AM4 motherboards, which are still going to be viable for another five years, and since it's rumoured that memory prices are going to rise this year, picking up really cheap RAM when the opportunity presents itself.

    Like I mentioned above, I'm waiting for discounted laptop offers next year, when Ryzen seven nanometre chips are incorporated, which should ensure performance at relatively economic prices.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    I didn't know you were an international spy Condottiere. Tell us more lol.

  16. #16

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    I don't recommend it as a career choice, they only pay fifty cents per internet post.

    If your local intelligence agency wants to bug you, they can, since they can get physical access; and there are other actors besides state ones, so why make it easier for them once you cross your border?
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  17. #17

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    I honestly don't even know why AMD would bother wasting silicon on desktop APUs. That's a pretty niche market. They'll still have Vega graphics as well Condottierre so Idk if you still want it, might make more sense to go for next gen idk.

  18. #18

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Strategic vision; if it hadn't paid off, there was speculation they would have sold off their graphics division to either Samsung or Intel.

    Consider that both of the coming gaming consoles are super APUs, using TSMC's seven nanometre process.

    For me it's a question of price and performance, and as I mention often, it's pointless to future proof your personal computer; between what you want, and what you need, and how much you're willing to shell out.

    In theory, 3000G goes for fifty bucks retail, for two cores, four threads, and arguably acceptable graphics for 720 resolution gameplay; I doubt it matters if it's manufactured at fourteen or twelve nanometres, if it's a desktop part. It's meant to compete against the Pentium and whatever is defined as Celeron, which due to capacity crunch, have very little chance of getting any capacity allocated for manufacturing, unless Intel outsources that, and it's unclear if they have managed to get their house in order even now.

    My minimum is the 2200G, and that was manufactured at fourteen nanometres, which I would snap up if I did spot one at fifty bucks. The x400G lie in a sort of no man's land, since if you wanted more performance, you might as well buy an x600 six core and a discrete graphic card, whether new or second hand. The new mobile Ryzen four thousand series have already won laptop orders, and they are manufactured at seven nanometres, and traditionally February should have seen the introduction of their desktop counterparts.

    In theory, the recommended retail price of the whatever the 4200G is should be a hundred bucks, and if they keep shrinking the die and increasing the yield, you might end up with six cores,and castrated to six threads for market segmentation, and six cores is a game changer for the introductory CPU segment, because that would be it for Intel at the low end market and business orientated low end computing.

    Get around to underclocking them and making them as power efficient as possible, Intel would have competition at the mid range laptop segment.

    At some point, the Chinese will compete at the low end, and besides driving Intel into the ground with their momentum, AMD might also be trying to raise the bar for entry to new competitors to become unreachable.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Well, I'm not questioning the idea of APUs as whole. I definitely agree that they are a great idea that has largely paid itself off. And really, there is a lot of utility to the APU approach. Every console since the PS4 generation has been using an AMD APU, APUs are the ideal mobile platform once AMD catches up to Intel's experience in power management anyway, and they have pretty good appeal for office and light workstation applications.

    What I am questioning however, is using AMD's limited 7nm wafer space on making a product that'll likely move very low volumes. IMO, it probably would've been better if they just skipped making APUs for the Zen 2 generation entirely. Though I could be wrong, that's really a question of business accounting.

    To be specific, the Zen 2 architecture relies on modular CCX construction, that means that Zen 2 cores can be used on any platform, be it high-end or low-end. It would make sense to re-use low-quality parts of the wafer for low-end products. Using 2 faulty modules that only have 2 cores active to make a quad core APU for example. Or two faulty modules of three cores each to make a hexacore, and so on. On the other hand, it makes little sense to use high quality wafer parts for a relatively cheap 50-200$ APU desktop products, so I'm just not seeing the business case for desktop APUs at the moment. AMD is selling pretty much everything they can make, seems like a bit of a waste to waste it on APUs and mobile.


    Older APU parts certainly make sense, and especially older Desktop Zen parts. The deals are pretty outrageous with retailers trying to clear out their old inventory I think. You can pay a together a Ryzen 2xxx or Ryzen 1xxx machine with a 2060 for well under 1,000$ today, and that's a very respectable gaming machine right there.

  20. #20

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Both Advanced Micro Systems and Intel are selling as much as they can produce, and are suffering from capacity crunch, though in the former's case, they claim that happened because they underestimated demand.


    With Intel, it's certain they'll prioritize server over Pentiums, leaving a clear field for AMD to clear up at the lower end.


    Global Foundries is making a profit, because they didn't expend capital to upgrade to seven nanometres (which may turn out to be a mistake); however, AMD is required to purchase a minimum number of wafers from them, which can be the I/Os, chipsets and/or older Ryzens.


    Four core APUs for the desktop probably makes little significant difference if they're manufactured at seven, twelve or fourteen nanometres; it does if they're meant to go into laptops. What happened last year was that the three thousand series appear to move into the twelve nanometre production lines vacated by transferring the chiplets over to seven nanometres, and Ryzen Three is scheduled to be manufactured at seven nanometres plus, as well as Apple moving on to five nanometres, which should open up capacity.


    Doesn't necessarily mean that 4200G will have six cores at seven nanometres, though I'm pretty sure that will be the case with the 6200G; or maybe they'll do that for a more premiumized 4400G. I just have hopes for it.


    But looking at it from a meta perspective, it makes sense for all that technology and research dedicated to gaming consoles to feedback to laptops and desktop variants, since the concept of the chiplet is to create a simple processing unit that can be scaled through all products, which Threadripper is demonstrating.


    The consumer has to figure out how this benefits him, and how to optimize that; in my case, 2200G has a very acceptable performance, and falls within a specific budget I have for what I'll utilize for, that would have to be balanced with equally economical computer components, cheap RAM and a cheap motherboard, whether used or discounted.


    My usual supplier reports that due to the Wuhan flu, there are going to be shortages and delays, good luck finding facemasks, and that resellers are likely going to hike the prices; there's currently an ongoing discount on Gigabyte products, and I'm wondering if I should pick up a pair of mATXes with four RAM slots while the opportunity presents itself.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

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