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Thread: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

  1. #21

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    Both Advanced Micro Systems and Intel are selling as much as they can produce, and are suffering from capacity crunch, though in the former's case, they claim that happened because they underestimated demand.


    With Intel, it's certain they'll prioritize server over Pentiums, leaving a clear field for AMD to clear up at the lower end.


    Global Foundries is making a profit, because they didn't expend capital to upgrade to seven nanometres (which may turn out to be a mistake); however, AMD is required to purchase a minimum number of wafers from them, which can be the I/Os, chipsets and/or older Ryzens.
    Ryzen I/O is on 12nm, probably GloFlo's 12nm process. Their contract is solidly through 2020.

    Four core APUs for the desktop probably makes little significant difference if they're manufactured at seven, twelve or fourteen nanometres; it does if they're meant to go into laptops. What happened last year was that the three thousand series appear to move into the twelve nanometre production lines vacated by transferring the chiplets over to seven nanometres, and Ryzen Three is scheduled to be manufactured at seven nanometres plus, as well as Apple moving on to five nanometres, which should open up capacity.


    Doesn't necessarily mean that 4200G will have six cores at seven nanometres, though I'm pretty sure that will be the case with the 6200G; or maybe they'll do that for a more premiumized 4400G. I just have hopes for it.
    It's hard to say for sure. I don't expect it in this year or the next since 7nm wafer supply is pretty limited. I also wouldn't be surprised to see even less desktop APUs in general. Like I keep saying, it's a pretty limited market.


    But looking at it from a meta perspective, it makes sense for all that technology and research dedicated to gaming consoles to feedback to laptops and desktop variants, since the concept of the chiplet is to create a simple processing unit that can be scaled through all products, which Threadripper is demonstrating.


    The consumer has to figure out how this benefits him, and how to optimize that; in my case, 2200G has a very acceptable performance, and falls within a specific budget I have for what I'll utilize for, that would have to be balanced with equally economical computer components, cheap RAM and a cheap motherboard, whether used or discounted.


    My usual supplier reports that due to the Wuhan flu, there are going to be shortages and delays, good luck finding facemasks, and that resellers are likely going to hike the prices; there's currently an ongoing discount on Gigabyte products, and I'm wondering if I should pick up a pair of mATXes with four RAM slots while the opportunity presents itself.
    Well, people may say that. What I'm really wondering is how long will they milk these rumors for to justify jacking up prices. The technology for the general public is getting better, but personally I'm more excited for more custom designs.

  2. #22

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Hard to say how much the supply chain is going to be disrupted, my gut feeling says that you might as well calculate in a three month delay as a precaution; the stock market is trying to figure out how much is going to cost in lost productivity.


    As a precaution, and probably as an excuse, I bought three sets of discounted 3000Gs and mATXes, since I doubt I could find any thing cheaper than that with three year guarantees; couldn't find any dirt cheap RAM and ran short from my personal stock, not that it would matter, since two are in reserve.


    I hear the price of the Thirty nine hundred ecks is dropping due to oversupply, so I'm going to guess that seven nanometre wafers are not an issue, at least now.


    My believe is that as long as it makes financial and architectural sense, you add at least minimal graphics onboard, so that you don't need a discrete graphics add in, especially if the user has to do diagnostics. There are several, not necessarily niche, market segments that would want onboard graphics without needing the added complexity of getting an extra component, whether business, or users in developing countries that will be satisfied with okay graphics for gaming.


    For me, the 3000Gs are placeholders, in case I can't find better performers at the price I want and am willing to pay for; can they run Total War? I may find out.
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  3. #23

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    Advanced Micro Devices has incredible momentum, and apparently already has the next generation ready for production, which would remain on the AM4 socket, and unlikely to increase the number of cores, theoretically available for sale by the fourth quarter of this year.

    Whether or not they'll bother doing so remains up in the air, since for the next three years Intel won't even be in competition; the Wuhan virus is also likely to push back any technological schedules by a season. The real driver for gaming performances will be the new consoles by Sony and Microsoft, whose innards are basically going to eight core/sixteen thread Ryzens and Navi graphic cores, which means any new games are likely going to be optimized for mid range Ryzen Fives, which would be the general answer to any question regarding as to how many cores you're likely to need for the next five years or so.

    I doubt that new Ryzen generations are going to be cheaper nor budget orientated, since with sixteen core desktop and sixty four core Threadripper high end, Advance Micro Devices clearly enjoy the lead in halo products. Anyone interested in budget variants can purchase previous generation Ryzens, that are clearly more than capable of fulfilling most user requirements, and there already is a production line to upscale previous fourteen nanometre Sixteen Hundreds to twelve nanometres, so as each process becomes superceded, could use that now spare capacity to manufacture last year's models more efficiently and cheaper.

    Long term, the real prize is the server market, that the increasingly insecure Intel architecture will eventually force wholesale defections from their loyal customer base.

    Right now, the battle ground is going to be for the lucrative laptop space, as the current iterations of low power Ryzens are now within spitting distance of Intel performance, and combined with better pricing and Intel production crunch, leaves a large gap to be exploited; if the Ryzen chips hit five nanometres (presumably end of next year) before Intel can retool to seven nanometres (scheduled Twenty Twenty Two, knock on wood), they could easily lose half the market.

    As has been said before, no purchasing manager will lose his job for buying Intel, but that's because very few members of a company board or chief executives understand this technology.

    There's no point future proofing your personal computers, since Advanced Micro Systems have the bit between their teeth and will push their current technological advantage for all it's worth, giving priority to the Epyc server chips, and with Ryzen Four, move on to socket AM5, that will allow a greater number of cores on the desktop, presumable thirty two, DDR5, USB 4.0, and maybe PCIe 5.0 beginning Twenty Twenty Three.

    Intel is far from out, since if all else fails, they have more than enough money to buy out every start up technological firm in existence, and hope that with this new portfolio, they'll find something to catch up.

    Or, like IBM, move on to greener pastures.

    Did I say three years?

    Apple apparently knew about the extent of Intel's problems, which is why they dropped them (outside their obvious Standard Oil inclination to vertical integration).

    Going by Ay Em Dee's recovery roadmap, they bet the farm on a five year programme to design and manufacture the Ryzen; currently, it's their ball to drop, to either Intel, ARM or apparently RISCFive.

    In any case, computing will look completely different in five years, with a successor to Ryzen, the successor to that being tested, and the successor to that being developed, at likely three nanometres.
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  4. #24

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    A smartphone and a laptop. I've worked in quite a few places. Workstations and x86 isn't going anywhere, but in terms of the form factor, laptops are steadily replacing Desktops for most office applications. Unless you actually need serious CPU/GPU horsepower, chances are your employer will eventually replace that desktop with a laptop. Some campuses simply have monitors and desks. They expect you to use your company issued laptop to plug in and get work done.
    Whatever happened to the mini desktop market? I'm talking about those Apple-Mini looking desktops, I believe they are cheaper than a laptop, although more wires and cables.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Quote Originally Posted by HorseArcher View Post
    Whatever happened to the mini desktop market? I'm talking about those Apple-Mini looking desktops, I believe they are cheaper than a laptop, although more wires and cables.
    like Intel NUC with laptop memory and energy saving CPU? I had two, nobody use those at work as far as know. They're good for home but most users would prefer all in one pc I think (= monitor with small form pc mounted on the back).

  6. #26

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    There's no incentive, besides the gee whiz factor.

    It's something I was more interested in earlier, but at some point you realize that if you need a computer, you will find the space for even large towers; essentially, Microsoft could turn their Ecks Box into one at any point they choose, and it's always been an implied threat, and now from another (am)dimension.

    Especially in the last year, laptops have the horsepower and graphics to do pretty much cover ninety percent of what you would normally need a personal computer for, and for businesses, they wouldn't have to shell out for another monitor; plus, the workday doesn't end at five.

    The alternatives are micro atx (which I'm currently utilizing), and itx, and then you'd have to find a case that suits you; the advantages are that they are upgradeable and a helluvalot cheaper.

    And waiting for it's final evolution into a HDMI stick, WiFi integrated and a Thunderbolt socket on the other end; presumably television screens will be everywhere.


    Of course, when they're that small, likely to be already integrated with said television.
    Last edited by Condottiere 40K; August 30, 2020 at 04:04 AM.
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  7. #27

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  8. #28

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Yeah can't wait for the benchmarks now for the new Zen 3. If AMD can match the performance with RTX as well and most importantly with ample supply, then AMD is gonna finish big this year.

  9. #29

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    It all seems a bit rushed, by everyone, considering how Corona effected the supply chain.

    Having said that, and even considering a twenty to thirty percent performance improvement across the board, I think that if you can get a Ryzen Thirty Six Hundred at one hundred fifty bucks, might be the sweet spot for cheap gaming rigs.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  10. #30

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Yeah 3600 is a perfect CPU right now even in the 4K gaming rigs since CPU performance is pretty much the same at that resolution.

  11. #31

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Current retail price is two hundred bucks, Fifty Six Hundred supposedly two hundred thirty bucks.

    I don't know if production of Three Thousand series will continue, though I find it hard to imagine what the Fifty One and Fifty Three Hundred will look like, since I rather doubt that four out of eight cores are going to be disabled.

    And to cover the lower segment, the Five Thousand Gee with two cores; outside of preventing some upstart corporation from getting a foothold, probably not much margin for Athlons and R3 segments.
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  12. #32

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    1. Ryzen Three is now the Gaming King.

    2. There were some Fifty Six Hundreds available locally, now it looks like a wait time of two to three months; I suspect stock will be available early December to cash in on the Christmas Spirit; they have all those empty Jumbo jets available.

    3. Rocket Lake got backported from ten to fourteen nanometres, but Intel moles promise they'll retake the Gaming Crown, sometime in April next year, at which time I suspect there will be Ryzen revision, where they release officially clocked five gigahertz plus chips, from presumably better yielding and polished manufacturing process.

    4. However, Rocket Lake may deliver the best bang for buck on gaming, assuming cost of ownership is very attractive.
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  13. #33
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    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    The alternatives are micro atx (which I'm currently utilizing), and itx, and then you'd have to find a case that suits you; the advantages are that they are upgradeable and a helluvalot cheaper.
    m-atx yes, ITX no. Some of ITX cases are not so small. Those which are compact cost $200 to $300 for very unimpressive noise level and heat dispersion, in addition to be difficult to add anything even if there is space - I wounded my fingers every time. ITX motherboard also costs more, up to double.

    Back to the CPU - better to wait for Zen 4 and AM5 socket or something after Zen 4? With PCI-e 4 and DDR5 memory? Ryzen 5 is close to my needs already (~40% single core improvement), but no good to upgrade now since new GPUs are very disappointing at performance/price compared to my old 1060.

  14. #34

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Depends on your resolution. Ryzen 5000 series is very much a good buy. Even more so if you can reuse your old motherboard and RAM. GPU pricing is a lot better than the 20 series... in United States. I understand different countries face really bad pricing.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    I don't have old AMD MBs. Isn't it bad time to get one now, since they're about to change the socket type for the next gen? Unless there would be no change (like Zen 3 again)?

  16. #36

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    A lot of commentary tends to be biased towards the writers' needs and circumstances.

    Having said that, at least for the last three years, computing has continuously improved every generation, and the chances are, will be for the next five as well.

    Procurement can be simplified as you need a computer, and you need a computer now.

    If you need a computer now, you have to make do with what's available, and what's available isn't too bad. Chances are that Ryzen Four will be launched November next year, and if there are supply issues, only fully available in January Twenty Twenty Two.

    So if you can hold on for another year, there's the answer.

    However, if Intel still can't compete, the price for each comparable market segment is likely to be twenty to fifty bux more expensive, plus you'll need a new motherboard and memory, and if there's a general adoption of the new electrical wiring standard, a new power unit.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  17. #37

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    I don't have old AMD MBs. Isn't it bad time to get one now, since they're about to change the socket type for the next gen? Unless there would be no change (like Zen 3 again)?
    Ryzen 5000 (Zen 3) is end of the road for AM4. Unless there's a pleasant surprise like Zen 3+ or something, but I highly doubt it. There are no rumors or indications that'll happen. Do I think it's a bad buy? Well no, not really. Ryzen 5000 series are phenomenal CPUs and most people don't upgrade very often. By the time you do upgrade, We'll be on hypothetical Zen 5 or Zen 6. If you want to wait to Zen 4, that's not a bad idea either. But... you can pretty much wait indefinitely for the next "big thing" in the PC world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    A lot of commentary tends to be biased towards the writers' needs and circumstances.

    Having said that, at least for the last three years, computing has continuously improved every generation, and the chances are, will be for the next five as well.

    Procurement can be simplified as you need a computer, and you need a computer now.

    If you need a computer now, you have to make do with what's available, and what's available isn't too bad. Chances are that Ryzen Four will be launched November next year, and if there are supply issues, only fully available in January Twenty Twenty Two.

    So if you can hold on for another year, there's the answer.

    However, if Intel still can't compete, the price for each comparable market segment is likely to be twenty to fifty bux more expensive, plus you'll need a new motherboard and memory, and if there's a general adoption of the new electrical wiring standard, a new power unit.
    Not to mention that DDR5 will be more expensive than DDR4 by a wide margin. I've seen this happen twice now. DDR3 was a lot more expensive than DDR2 and took a couple years to come down in price. Same with DDR4. Affordable DDR5 probably won't happen until Zen 5 release, if even then.

  18. #38

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    I think there will be a revision in May, if only to mess with Intel: maybe some XT variants.

    There are some obvious holes in the line up, Fifty Seven Hundred Ecks, and Fifty Six Hundred; February should be APU variants Fifty Two and Fifty Four Gees.

    What really interests me, intellectually, is the architecture of Five Thousand Gee, Fifty One Hundred Ecks, and Fifty Three Hundred Ecks; my bet is they'll be twelve nanometres, or introductionary chips are going to be ignored next year, beyond APUs.
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  19. #39

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Decided on Monday to go on a two months waiting list for a Fifty Nine Hundred Ecks, as I predict that prices are likely going to go up next year.

    Ironically, Santa's sleigh landed directly that morning at my retailer's with what's rumoured to be a mix of five hundred Ryzen chips, and I received it on Friday, and supply dried up thirty six hours later; quick survey among the other retailers nationally showed that a tad less than a half of them expect to have some in stock in two to four weeks; my retailer expects the next shipment in one or two months, but only offers Fifty Six and Fifty Eight.

    My feeling is that since Fifty Six and Fifty Nine use discarded server chips, it will probably be easier to get them.

    Going by this year, since Zen Four is five nanometres, it means that next year the Six Thousand series will be competing directly with Apple for capacity; not sure if RDNA3 also is supposedly manufactured at this node.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  20. #40

    Default Re: intel VS AMD diccussion can AMD outclass intels last stromng point in the CPU market?

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    Going by this year, since Zen Four is five nanometres, it means that next year the Six Thousand series will be competing directly with Apple for capacity; not sure if RDNA3 also is supposedly manufactured at this node.
    Depends on how many chips Apple needs and whether TSMC's 3nm Node will be ready on time. AMD's next gen products are most likely switching to 5nm around first half of 2022, which should coincide with Apple moving to the next node. So maybe, probably, dunno. What I do know is that AMD will probably pay a lot more per wafer than Apple. When an EPYC chip costs a few thousand dollars for the chip alone, vs a MacBook that costs 2,000$ for the whole product...

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