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Thread: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

  1. #1
    Demosthenes26's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul



    Athens has long been my favorite faction, and I have often wondered about the lost potential of their defeat in the Peloponnesian War. Though the heyday of the democracy and power of the Athenian state had long waned by the time of the Grand Campaign and Macedonian Wars, what is Total War for if not historical what-ifs? So this mod will reskin and add new units to Athens as though it had formed a successful and necessarily larger state (not unlike a bigger Achaean League) governed by its free citizens rather than by the wiles of pompous Macedonian monarchs. I’ve tried to make the citizen units more uniquely Athenian and distinctly southern greek in appearance in this first phase of this mod, without being anachronistic. The eventual goal is to have a Hellenistic combined arms force with a recruitment structure more like the Romans. However, this is a lot of work (especially considering this is my first mod), so the mod will be updated in the following phases:



    1. Reskin and stat tweaks of pre-reform/existing DEI citizen units (RELEASED, Download below)

    This stage is meant to be historically accurate. My main goal here was to differentiate the appearance of the Athenian units more from the successor states as well as fellow southern Greeks. In general there are far fewer Phrygian helmets (symbols of the hated Macedonian overlords as much as the outdated Corinthian helmet was of Classical Greece) and more Attic, Boeotian, Thracian, and Chalkidean helmets. There are also a number of Athens-specific shields and armors, selected for the importance of their symbols to Athens as a whole or certain social groups, clans etc that were prominent in Athens. I chose these based on known symbols of Athena etc and borrowing from research done on shield patterns shown on Attic pottery. I’ll admit that these sources are focused on the Classical and Archaic eras, but I’ve tried to mitigate this by using emblems that conform to the more realistic styles of Hellenistic art when possible, instead of the more stylized/abstract portrayals seen commonly in the archaic & early classical eras.This rework is mostly a reskin of pre-reform citizen units and officers, but has also included a few post-reform units from DEI such as the Neotarantanoi and the Epilektoi Hippeis, and there is a new pre-reform unit added.



    2. Thureos Reform Units (WIP)

    This release will be the main introduction of the speculative units – the premise is that not only was general military training reintroduced as a part of education in Athens, but a publicly equipped and well-drilled standing army was developed with service open to all classes in many cases. Going for a social and training structure like polybian/marian rome, but with a hellenistic combined-arms style army. In general there will be higher barracks requirements than equivalent successor units (due to the need to build the infrastructure and knowledge base to support a well-trained army with obsolete military traditions in Athens) and higher initial recruitment costs (from training and supplying equipment, with only some provided by the soldiers themselves) but low upkeep costs, good discipline/morale, and hopefully some unique formation abilities.There will be some disadvantages and weak spots compared to other Hellenistic states.

    Core roster mercenary units--I think generally they are a perfect reflection of the historical reality and a necessity for Athens so long as she didn’t control much beyond Attica. It makes sense for them to be equipped visually more like successor states they likely had also served. However, I will retain them only to a degree-specialist and elite units such as Xystophoroi and Pikemen will be kept to supplement the citizen army (and will be particularly important in the early game) but will be heavily capped and certainly will be expensive to retain. More common/easy to train types such as thureos swordsmen will be replaced with equivalent citizen units on the high recruitment/low upkeep model. Of course Athens will still be able to recruit mercenary thureophoroi etc outside of the core roster the same as other greek states.



    3. Thorax Reform Units, final release (WIP)

    Will see basically the same structure as the Thureos reform army, but with mail and scale predominant in place of mostly linothoraxes, and more iron helmets. Perhaps a few elite units will be updated/added.Would also like to include unique Athenian generals.


    Unit Showcase

    I took these screenshots recreating a Panathenaic procession, which was the final ceremony of the yearly Panathenaic festival (Celebrated from 566 BC to the 3rd Century AD). A procession would enter Athens through the Dipylon gate, make its way along the Panathenaic way across the agora, and then up the steps of the Acropolis, where animal sacrifices were performed.
    http://image.slidesharecdn.com/artof...?cb=1316765532
    This procession may be represented on the frieze of the Parthenon, and in classical times reportedly included cavalry, hoplites, allies in the Delian League, thetes, slaves, metics, and a number of civilian and religious groups bearing particular objects such as umbrellas, jars, and likely at least a representation of a trireme. Screenshots were taken while using the following graphics mods:

    Orbis Terrarum II - Open Beta
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1970932617

    Realistic Ship Colors
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...xt=ship+colors

    Pdguru's Legal Weed Mod
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...ext=legal+weed


    Units
    Cavalry

    Athenai Epilektoi Hippeis - Athenian Picked Citizen Cavalry

    I’ve kept the equipment generally the same as in stock DEI, but have given them mostly Boeotian and Thracian helmets, with cavalry cuirasses and scale-plated linothoraxes. The Athenian cavalry had a strong association with Poseidon, and set up their decrees at the shrine of Poseidon Hippios at Kolonos (now within Athens proper, but in ancient times it was outside of the city walls). This association was remarked upon by Sophocles, and it appears that there may have long been an almost political connection between aristocratic landowners and Poseidon, with lower and middle class city dwellers showing a similarly strong class/political connection with Athena. Shields include some of the same shields as the Logades, some expensive embossed shields, shields with common symbols of Athens, and shields with symbols of Poseidon. Stats slightly buffed.

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    Athenai Hippeis - Athenian Citizen Cavalry


    I have added shields to make them competitive with other greek cavalry. I don’t disagree with the idea that they would have remained unshielded until contact with the Celts, but all of the other greek spear (not xyston)-armed cavalry save the Spartans have shields, and at the start of the GC Athens had just lead the greek defense against the Celts at Thermopylae in 279 prior to their eventual defeat by the Aetolians. Of the classical city-states, Athens was supposed to have the second best cavalry after Thebes, and it seems this competence continued to some degree in the Hellenistic era- though they were certainly eclipsed by the successor states. According to the work of Richard Burgh in The Horsemen of Athens, though the Hellenistic cavalry of Athens declined greatly in numbers, it remained a professional institution, with service that often passed from father to son in aristocratic families (shown on surviving records of the names of cavalry commanders from specific years). Apparently they even defeated Macedonians in a cavalry skirmish, as Pausanias records a monument to the victory (possibly happened in 303 BC).

    So I have upped their stats slightly on top of giving them shields, though they should still have trouble against successor state cavalry. Hellenistic Athens apparently struggled to recruit wealthy young men to the cavalry from outside of the traditional cavalry families, so what I would like to do is cap them pre-thureos reform, remove or increase the cap post-reform, and finally reskin them for the Thorax reform.

    They have a mix of cuirasses (only the type flared at the bottom front, which likely improved rider comfort at a key junction of armour, horse, and body...) and partially scale-reinforced linothoraxes, and their helmets are now mostly Boeotian with a few crested attic and Thracian ones mixed in. The shields of the cavalry include both hoplons and wooden shields, painted with common Athenian symbols, symbols associated with horses, and in particular with symbols of Poseidon.
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    Neotarantinoi Hippeis - Athenian Tarantine Cavalry

    Outfitted entirely with Boeotian helmets and with some commonality between shields-this is the sort of balance between uniformity and uniqueness that you can expect with other WIP reform units.
    I have given every member of the unit a minimum of a quilter, so I have slightly upped armor values. I have also added the cantabrian circle ability (Classical Athens employed Scythian horse archers, and could hypothetically have learned the tactic from them. At the end of the classical era this unit may have included some Athenian citizens as well- perhaps just officers and Alcibiades
    https://stefanosskarmintzos.wordpres...ncient-athens/
    I’ve also seen references to a tarentenic circle that may have been just such a tactic used by well-trained tarentine cavalry, so it seems fitting to the importance placed on this unit type in hellenistic Athens. Maybe they are a little OP as an individual unit, but Athens will remain limited in developing other styles of cavalry in the mid game compared to rival Hellenic factions.
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    Hoplites

    Logades - Athenian Elite Hoplites

    I’ve made extensive use of a specific style of heavy Thracian helmet here. It appears often on attic pottery and there have been physical find of the type as well . It seems the ideal helmet to me to retain all the functionality of the heavy successor helmets while allowing for more traditional Greek crests. Cuirasses of bronze & iron and scale linothoraxes are used throughout, along with a mix of iron and bronze greaves. The shields of the Logades included general symbols of Athens, the Star of Theseus/the Medontid Clan(likely no longer a political force, but I’m using it as a symbol of nostalgia/civic pride in Theseus-see the lekythos at the primary source met link below for use of the symbol on Theseus’ shield), Tripods (a sign of victory in public competition or membership in a priesthood), Chariot wheels ( chariot racing was a favorite sport of the wealthy, victors would show off), Triptolemus (associated with the Mysteries of Eleusis popular at Athens, carried by prominent Athenians associated with organizing the rituals), and symbols of the Alcmaonid clan (the family of Pericles and Alcibiades-again, nostalgia for the golden age).
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    Zeugitai Hoplitai (Formerly Athenai Hoplitai) - Athenian Hoplites

    The Zeugitai were the middle class of farmers, craftsmen, and merchants in Athens that formed the backbone of the hoplites armies of the classical era. I have outfitted this unit with mostly plain linothoraxes and linothoraxes with some scale added. Fully scale-covered linothoraxes are present among the best equipped men in the unit, but are rare. Helmets are bronze attic, chalkidean, thracian, and thracian/phyrgian hybrid types. Shields are emblazoned with symbols such as Athena’s owl, the Alpha for Athens, lions similar to the lions of delos, Snakes (associated with Athena), Medusa’s head (represented sometimes on Athena’s shield), pottery (Athens was famous for making it), and symbols of Athenian clans such as the triskelion.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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    Thetes Hoplites (formerly Epistratoi Hoplitai - Levy Hoplites)

    Drawn from the poorest free citizens of Athens, these are similar to other levy hoplites throughout the Greek world. As well-trained rowers, the Thetes were the backbone of Athens’ fleet in the classical era, and were sometimes called upon to serve as hoplites as well. They enjoyed far greater political rights in Athenian democracy than fellow greeks of similarly modest means elsewhere. Historically Thetes were disenfranchised when the southern Greek rebellion was crushed in the Lamian war in 322, but any proper restoration of Athenian democracy and independence would require the restoration of voting, military service, and some public office-holding rights to this class.
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    Skirmishers and Missile units

    Athenai Ekdromoi - Athenian Light Hoplites

    Since these men are chosen for their speed to run out of the phalanx, they have no greaves to slow them down, and are otherwise slightly more lightly equipped than the Thetes Hoplites.
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    Athenian Iphicratean Peltasts

    I wanted to give the unit invented by an Athenian (Iphicrates) a unique look for Athens. Based primarily on the second reference image, I hope I have accomplished this plausibly. I have upped the armor slightly due to the increased presence of quilters and linothoraxes, along with slightly heavier helmets. This unit will be developed further in later reforms.
    Sources:
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f877e6e6d1.jpg
    https://weaponsandwarfare.files.word...scsdcvcsvd.jpg
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    Athenian Archers

    Boeotian Kettle Helmets and Petasos are the most popular headgear for keeping the sun out of the eyes. These men would likely be Thetes, and since archery was a skill associated with life in the countryside I have kept some sheepskin cloaks that would be readily available to farmers/herders/hunters of the attic countryside of modest means.
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    Naval Units

    Athenai Epibatoi

    These marines are equipped with linothoraxes and partially scale-reinfocred linothoraxes. They were drawn from the Zeugitai class like the main line hoplites, so they can afford similar equipment. Shields most commonly use an anchor pattern owls, medusas, and nautical symbols like tridents, shells, sea creatures etc. They wear attic, chalkidean, and thracian helmets. No greaves or heavy cuirasses that would be difficult to remove in case of sinking.
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    Athenai Epibatoi Toxotai

    Similar equipment to the land-based archers, but with some sailor’s caps and deck crew interspersed.
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    Officers

    Lochagos & Standard bearers

    Officers have painted attic or heavy thracian helmets with wreaths and capes to distinguish them from even elite infantry. Their shields carry the star of Theseus, and they carry finely crafted Xiphos.
    Standard Bearers have ornate attic helmets, Athena-emblazon Hoplons, and will eventually receive standards with the same image as their shield (the texture I adapted for this is bugged and I’m still trying to figure out why).
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    Naval Officer (Trierarch)

    The Trierarchs of Athenian warships were often a wealthy citizen who funded the construction of the ship himself, so all have shields with an image of their command as a symbol of civic and personal pride. No greaves or heavy cuirasses, as with regular marines.
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    This is just the start! I have grand plans for new Thureos and Thorax units. Again, these will be about leveraging Athens nearly unique position (of Hellenic states) as a citizen-lead state that can arm and train large numbers of the middle and lower classes without fearing a revolt against oligarchy or the king-as the broader citizen body is already in charge- while employing the most practical (and to my eye, best looking) equipment to be mass produced for each role in the Hellenistic era. While they won’t be strictly historical, and I want there to be unique advantages for Athens, I don’t intend for these units to be ludicrously OP. I want them to be believable given the premise, and there will be definitely be some tradeoffs that other Hellenic factions can exploit. In particular If Athens continues to develop one unit type ( say hoplites), they will be relatively week in the equivalent types seen in other greek armies (thureos spears), as their resources have gone into standardizing that particular type of unit for that role. Expect no matron-charioteer-cataphract-archers from me! Once thing I am debating is whether to retain a separate version of this mod with only the reskinned/pre-reform units, so I’m open to suggestions there.
    I anticipate that there will be a decent amount of time before I release the Thureos reform units. I have already done some work in figuring out what armors etc will be used for what unit, but I also intend to do some asset editing including creating new shield textures through combining elements of existing ones - and separating helmets from cheekpieces and reimporting them separately (to create more variety). Since I haven’t yet tried those processes, I don’t know exactly how long it will take.

    DOWNLOAD LINK:
    http://www.mediafire.com/file/zxczd9...1_0b.pack/file

    Credits:

    Many thanks to Morfeasnikos’ for permission to use his great shield textures he developed for his Thucydides History mod:
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil.../?id=361831184

    Kraut and Tea (The Germans Are Coming) for his incredible Hellenic Resource pack-This accounts for most of the new tunics, armours, and even some helmets:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-Resource-Pack

    Dominus for permission to use his wonderful Athens Embelem mod as a basis for new shield textures and (eventually) unit banners:
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil.../?id=923870497

    Aguirre for permission to use various assets from his excellent TABU Mod, including a great variety of Boeotian helmets, crests, shield textures, and linothoraxes seen on skirmisher units and Neotarantinoi:
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil.../?id=385837482

    Noniac, Celticus, Benjin, and Hloeric for Helmet and sword models from their fantastic resource: Roman Models Extravaganza Part 1
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...t=extravaganza



    Primary Sources (Attic pottery, helmet finds, etc):
    https://www.britishmuseum.org/resear...99851&partId=1
    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/41/07/04/4...ek-history.jpg
    https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/c...uvre-g341.jpeg
    http://www.getty.edu/art/exhibitions/gela/
    https://db4sgowjqfwig.cloudfront.net...jpg?1389725241
    https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/253351
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/61/8a...9e1213d82a.jpg
    https://i.pinimg.com/236x/e1/2b/c2/e...e248fbc2f5.jpg


    References & Inspiration (Reconstructions, misc art, other units)

    The wonderful Hellenika Mod and their historical sources were a great source of inspiration for me. However, I haven't used any assets from Hellenika – assets shared by this mod and Hellenika are either freely available resource packs or were used with the direct permission of their creators

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ient-greek.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...gn-history.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...nesian-war.jpg
    http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or...2e2bc81809.jpg
    https://i.pinimg.com/236x/99/19/f6/9...e-spartans.jpg
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/55/55...07589da01d.jpg
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6b/22...732be21fb9.jpg
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/39/6b...e224e2aec8.jpg
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/68/18...28908f2ff3.jpg
    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/27/96/65/2...f0bb899a0c.jpg
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/80/e9...916f7e11ad.jpg


    Last edited by Demosthenes26; March 21, 2020 at 08:01 PM. Reason: Contentbox tag added.

  2. #2
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    Oh, that's nice man!
    Really a good addition, thanks and congrats for doing it.

  3. #3
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    Very nice!

    We are also overhauling look of Athenian units but we are waiting for some new assets that will add some nice touches here and there.
    Official DeI Instagram Account! https://www.instagram.com/divideetimperamod/
    Official DeI Facebook Page! https://www.facebook.com/divideetimperamod

  4. #4

    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    Thrilled to see this; well done.

  5. #5
    Demosthenes26's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    Thanks guys!

    Those new assets sound intriguing, really looking forward to seeing what the DEI team comes up with. I don't wan't to speak for people who gave me specific permission to use their assets, but if you guys want to you're certainly welcome to use anything I put together myself.

    Will post some WIP shots of Thureos reform units when I get to that stage/need to spitball...

    Also wanted a part of this release to include an Elite Marine unit for Admirals ships - But it always was a ghost unit, not even officers appeared, the battle loaded with an empty flagship. Tried testing it as a land unit too and it still is invisible. I gave its VMD to the regular Marines in testing and it displayed fine when assigned to a different unit, and I've made my eyeballs bleed looking through DB tables for typos/missing fields. It's still in the packfile, just not assigned to any ships. Sebidee and Magnar's tutorials have been a great help, but I still haven't been able to locate the problem. So if anyone has an idea as to what the problem could be, please share!

  6. #6
    Lupo's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    Hi there!
    I like it so far ...... let's see what the future brings.
    Thumbs up!!!

    Lupo!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    Looks great! I've had similar musings myself on what a resurrected Athens would look like, and I hope you don't mind if I share some. First and most obvious would be Iphicratean Peltast Pikes following the thureos reforms. Linothorax as standard, no greaves, but heavy duty boots for long marches, and above-average fatigue, and drawing from the thetes. Secondly, as part of the revival, the traditional lower/middle class hoplites would likely reform into an evolved form based on standardized and subsidized equipment, with the lighter thureos replacing the aspis, and one or two javelins being added to their panoply, keeping the overall superior quality Athenian armor. Yes, I've described an updated version of the old thureos hoplies, and yes that's a rather good unit, but given Athens prioritizes equipment over training, not too far fetched, and they'd certainly not be up to Roman standards. Would draw from the Class 2 pop, and be there as much to keep the non-citizen Metics in line as fight for Athens. I'm not too well-read on things, but I would put any Hellenized foreigners into the thetes grouping along with the poorer citizens, and show greater Thracian influence as time goes on and mercenaries settle inside Athenian borders and adopt its culture, with the current core mercenaries staying much as they are to represent that, but I would have some more Thracian swords appear, with damage values to match.

  8. #8
    Demosthenes26's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    Glad you guys are enjoying the mod!

    SpardaSon21- Those are some interesting Ideas, thanks for sharing

    I have similar ideas about the reformed Iphicrateans-They will be something like a professional core of the skirmishing force, supplemented by the more militia-level (in terms of stamina, morale as you mention) archers, slingers, and regular thureos/sword peltasts-but all drawing from the Thetes (Class 3 pop). Definitely will keep using boots rather than greaves, as I refine their exact equipment I may post some WIP shots for feedback.

    As for Hoplites- I think I will be keeping the reformed Hoplites as hoplites with Aspis shields(essential for the phalanx formation). Polybius wrote of how when the Achaean league reformed under Aratos of Sikyon from a hoplite-based army to a Thureophoroi-based army, they gained a great deal of flexibility and mobility, which they used to their advantage in a number of battles, raids, and seizing cities by surprise. But they did lose prowess in holding and attacking enemies frontally-the achaeans eventually addressed this by training pikemen. But since Pikeman are even more vulnerable to flanking than hoplites, I tend to use hoplites to guard their immediate flanks (since they are great for holding an enemy at bay in DEI). So I plan on retaining hoplites for athens through the reforms, though with a limited and specific role, probably with class 2 pop. But an elite thureos spear unit would be perfect for the Achaean League

  9. #9

    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    Well, the idea I had was they'd be hoplites, complete with the traditional long hoplite spears and the phalanx ability so they would form up in a dense spear and shield wall, but otherwise fight as javelin-armed medium-heavy sword infantry with extensive use of greaves and scaled linothorax throughout. They'd certainly not trade in their existing heavy armor for mobility, only adopt the thureos and javelins for versatility. After all, no democracy is complete without oneupmanship and displays of superiority over the lower classes, especially by the middle classes. I do hope those lovely archers the Athenians have end up getting even better, especially thanks to the Scythian presence as well as the proximity to the Cretans via trade. But not too good since I'd hate to lose them being the thetes population! A word of warning about the ekdromoi hoplites: they're class 2 pop, and unless you changed that, I would be leery about making them too light compared to the thetes, since they're competing with the Zeugitai Hoplites for your pop. As such they should have a great deal of light, quilted armor with heavier, cheaper, confining leather and hide appearing among the rural thetes to compensate.

  10. #10
    Demosthenes26's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    Hmm, we could see a development of Athens' archers post reform with a bit better armor and some sort of stamina/morale benefits like the reofrmed iphicrateans- will have to compare stats to other archers to figure out exact buffs-but I'm reluctant to include characteristics associated exclusively with other factions/regions such as cretans or thracians. This is a speculative sort of project, but I still want the AOR units to have purpose and unique flavor, and for Athens itself to have unique pros/cons rather than taking the best characteristics of everything around it.

    Thanks for bringing it to my attention that ekdromoi are currently class 2 pop! will have to change that to 3 for the starting and reform units. To my knowledge they were generally the youngest and fittest, or those who trained specifically for stamina and speed with light equipment- which fits well with thetes and young men from Zeugitai families who have yet to inherit much wealth.

    As for Thureos hoplites- In my view DEI made the right call in removing these and differentiating between thureos spears without phalanx abilities and Aspis-equipped hoplites. Mechanically, the Aspis is the essential component of the hoplite phalanx. The sizing of the shield and its rounded/rimmed shape allow it to cover the body from close in while interlocking with shields to each side. The thureos is not only too narrow to interlock, it is the wrong shape . Now densely packed formations can still be formed with he thureos like the celtic shieldwalls already in DEI, but its a way of fighting distinct from the interlocking shields of the hoplite phalanx. Another problem is that unfortunately the AI bugs out when a unit is both a missile and phalanx unit.
    Last edited by Demosthenes26; February 10, 2020 at 11:49 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    Now that you have an excellent mod you have to deal with the injustice of people pestering you for updates.

    When do you anticipate the next rollout?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    Fair enough on the thureos stuff, and the faction inclusions. Archery did seem to be a thing in Athens though, given the existing unit and their navy, and having a reformed better one isn't too far-fetched at least. You yourself have mentioned possible Scythian influence as a basis for the Cantabrian circle, so having some training done for reformed archers isn't out of the question either. Also, the Neotaraninoi are a Class 1 unit, same with the Epilektoi cav, so having them equipped with lightweight wooden shields and similar armor to the citizen cav, but their current very fast horses is a good idea. The Athenians were the pioneers of cavalry in Greek warfare, and while by the time of the game they've declined indeed, I don't see it too far fetched to have their fully reformed cavalry units be the equal of the Macedonians. Similarly, due to their naval dominance their archer corps would be above average, especially as the thetes were the rowers and skirmishers. That said, they should lack proper shock cavalry or pikemen, instead relying on the Iphicratean pikes and their quality melee cavalry to break open any phalanxes or other dense blocks.

  13. #13
    Demosthenes26's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by Basilius View Post
    Now that you have an excellent mod you have to deal with the injustice of people pestering you for updates.

    When do you anticipate the next rollout?
    As always, when its done As I mentioned before I'm working on some shield textures and editing some helmets, which will take an indeterminate amount of time. If I really run into roadblocks I may do a minor release of the reform units that won't use those specific assets.

    I'll admit I haven't touched population classes in the first update, I'll definitely do so in later ones. I think the Neotarantinoi will likely end up being Class 2. The source on Athenian cavalry I mentioned in my first post talked about the decline in numbers of Athenian cavalry after the Peloponnesian war. It seems that basically this was due to the loss of Kleuruchies throughout greece, and though there remained a solid core of cavalry from attica itself, there were struggles to expand its numbers of the cavalry by recruiting Athenians from wealthy families that could afford horses but didn't have a history of cavalry service. At some point during the hellenistic period, numbers were expanded noticably, likely from increasing skirmisher cavalry (whether they were called prodromoi or tarantinoi at the time I don't know). Given that skirmish cav didn't have the same prestige as melee cav in general in greece, that there was difficulty recruiting Athenian aristocrats, and that Athens expanded this force and held competitions for this style of fighting...It seems plausible that it was a way of involving the middle classes such as the Zeugitai in the cavalry corps in a way suited to the equipment they could afford (also considering the state supplied horses).

    And I'm all for Athens having good archers! Just want it to be in a way distinct from the cretans with their medium range AP arrows. Also not so much opposed to occasionally adapting tactics or formations from other cultures, its more that I want to limit using equipment from scythians, thracians etc unless there is a very specific reason for using it in place of the hellenic equivalent.
    Last edited by Demosthenes26; February 10, 2020 at 03:18 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    No, I was not suggesting the use of Cretan or Scythian equipment for Athenian archers, only instructors. Given what Magas of Cyrene dug up for his mod involving the Cretan archers, Athenian ones would have decent melee skills to go with their use of shields, but keep the traditional Hellenic light arrows for range. Any Thracian equipment would be restricted to the mercenaries, representing their likely origins. As to the cavalry, not bad, but then the basic existing tarantine cavalry should upgrade with reforms to the neotarantine, given they both share the class 2 pop.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    Think this is like what I wanted to do. Very interested.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    I haven't been able to get this mod to work. Have others confirmed it works for them?

  17. #17
    Demosthenes26's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    I see from the Hellenic League thread you're having trouble loading new mods generally-have you got any other new ones to work since? I figure you've double checked load order and are using the old launcher as well?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    Yea I assume it's a personal issue, but wanted to confirm. New launcher; first in load order.

    I'll check the old launcher tonight.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    Alas; no luck with the old launcher either (all mods turned off but DEI). Custom games work fine, but when I start a campaign I cannot recruit anything and the UI is white.

    Again, it's probably just me, but it would be nice if someone else can confirm.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Athens Resurgent-Athens Reskin & Overhaul

    I apologize for the triple post (mods if you want to consolidate?)

    I got the mod working by deleting the "factions_tables" entry via a file pack manager. Demosthenes would you mind explaining if that was essential to the mod?

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