Meet the "Trump peace plan" for the Israel-Palestinian conflict

[Papay]

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-netanya...185919987.html

One was facing impeachment, the trial about to resume less than 2 miles away. The other was facing an indictment on corruption charges 6,000 miles away.And yet there they were, President Trump and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, together in the East Room of the White House on Tuesday afternoon to announce the release of Trump's long-delayed Israeli-Palestinian peace plan.
There was pageantry and mutual congratulations. The only thing missing was Palestinians.
“Forging peace between Israelis and Palestinians may be the most difficult challenge of all,” Trump said. “All prior administrations from President Lyndon Johnson have tried and bitterly failed. But I was not elected to do small things or shy away from big problems.”
Praising his skill as a “dealmaker,” Trump said his “vision presents a win-win opportunity for both sides — a realistic two-state solution that resolves the risk of Palestinian statehood and to Israel’s security.”

Basically Trump legalizes apartheid in west bank. Israelis control all the areas and Palestinians feel free not to vote. Both Trump and Netaniahu face indictment charges bty. I am wondering how many bribes were taken by Trump and Kushner

[alhoon]

It is brilliant to think that Palestinians making East Jerusalem their capital and Israelis making West Jerusalem their capital will lead to peaceful coexistence of these two people... the work of a stable genious \sarcasm.

[Lord Thesaurian]

If the past is any indication, Trump and Netanyahu will cosign a piece of paper amid fanfare in front of the TV cameras. GOP propaganda will declare the Israeli Palestinian conflict “solved,” and anoint Trump as the greatest statesman in the history of the world. Meanwhile nothing of consequence will actually be altered in said world. Source: North Korea.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

The Palestinians get their own homeland in Israel like in good old Southafrica.

Hasn't worked in the past, won't work now.

[Aexodus]

Are you implying this is apartheid?

[Papay]

Are you implying this is apartheid?

Its actually worst than south african apartheid. At least in South Africa blacks could travel from one place to another without having soldiers watching them constantly

[sumskilz]

Hell yes.

Dude, a relevant party wasn’t even present.

The Palestinians are under no obligation to accept the offer. They are free to maintain the territorial autonomy in the West Bank they negotiated in the Oslo accords and Gaza as a de facto independent state. But let’s be honest, the deal is effectively terms of surrender. In exchange for ending the conflict, they would get expanded quasi-state autonomy. The Israelis will take what they consider important to hold on to either way. It is the deal of the century only as far as it is the best deal the Palestinians are likely to be offered this century.

Of course, the Palestinian Authority won’t accept it. They don’t even want the deal they say they want, because they know their physical survival, as much as their political survival, depends upon security cooperation with the Israelis while maintaining the façade of resistance. They’d rather continue to enrich themselves on donations from the international community. Even Netanyahu’s home is quite modest compared the palace Mahmoud Abbas recently had built for himself.

Its actually worst than south african apartheid. At least in South Africa blacks could travel from one place to another without having soldiers watching them constantly

There may be some reasonable parallels that can be drawn between Bantustans and the PA's territory (the former were more like US Indian Reservations prior to 1924), but generally the comparisons between South Africa and Israel/Palestine demonstrate a (willful?) lack of understanding of the multitude of differences between the overall situations and histories.

For example:

• 23% of Israeli doctors are Arabs
• 46% of Israeli pharmacists are Arabs
• 28% of hi-tech students at the Technion are Arabs
• 16% of the students in all of Israeli higher education are Arabs
• 73% view “Israeli” as part of their identity
• 77% want to see their community fully integrated into Israeli society

Consider these numbers in light of the fact that Arab Israelis make up 21% of the population, and while Muslim Arab Israelis have a lower average income than Israeli Jews, Christian Arab Israelis actually have a higher average income than Israeli Jews. The main point of contention I've heard coming from Arab Israelis about this proposed "peace plan" is the suggestion that some predominately Arab areas of Israel should become part of the Palestinian state.

This is clearly geared towards their own core voters...

Of course, although some of the parties who have been supporting Netanyahu are opposed to the deal because their own core voters won't accept anything less than complete annexation of the West Bank.

[PointOfViewGun]

A) You're only giving figures from one example while providing nothing from the other one, B) you're basically trying to argue degrees of discrimination.

[sumskilz]

A) You're only giving figures from one example while providing nothing from the other one, B) you're basically trying to argue degrees of discrimination.

A) Feel free to correct me if black South Africans were in fact significantly over-represented among higher paid medical professions in South Africa, B) No, I'm not. I said the situations and histories are different in a multitude of ways and gave some examples that a reasonable person would accept as different from the circumstances of blacks in South Africa under apartheid. It was a rather low effort response on my part to an assertion that was made without any supporting data.

I'd say the Cyprus situation you brought up is at least closer, but I imagine it would be more similar if a segment of the Greek Cypriot population were attempting to kill random Turks on at least a weekly basis. I'm sure many essentially irrelevant arguments could be made one way or the other along those lines.

[Ludicus]

It is the deal of the century only as far as it is the best deal the Palestinians are likely to be offered this century.

Well considering the fact that the 21th century begins in 2001...that's a bold statement.

Let's keep in mind that Sanders, a self-hating Jew and the US next President will change that. Btw, he isn't fearful of assassination attempts, and says: it is time to end the Israeli occupation.

It must end the Israeli occupation and enable Palestinian self-determination in an independent state of their own alongside a secure Israel. Trump's so-called 'peace deal' doesn't come close, and will only perpetuate the conflict. It is unacceptable.

Progressive Democrats condemn ...the theft of the century.
--

Jewish groups in US blast Trump's Mideast peace plan

Trump's 'deal of the century' was written in a way so Palestinians would reject it. May be that was the plan. The Haaretz

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Well considering the fact that the 21th century begins in 2001...that's a bold statement.

Let's keep in mind that Sanders, a self-hating Jew and the US next President will change that. Btw, he isn't fearful of assassination attempts, and says: it is time to end the Israeli occupation.

Progressive Democrats condemn ...the theft of the century.
--

Jewish groups in US blast Trump's Mideast peace plan

Trump's 'deal of the century' was written in a way so Palestinians would reject it. May be that was the plan. The Haaretz

What Sanders wants is unacceptable to Israel, and would never come to be.

[sumskilz]

I was talking about life under occupation.

Alright, I wasn't talking about Gaza. Gaza is an active war zone, ruled by an authoritarian Islamist regime, and under blockade. Most of the things you mentioned exist to some degree in the West Bank, but the typical West Bank resident lives in Area A and has no contact with settlers or the IDF in his or her daily life. There are indirect effects, but as far as direct effects, it's not surprising that if you ask some randomly, many can't come up with an answer for how they suffer other than that they have to go through checkpoints sometimes. Their cities don't look much different than Arab cities in Israel. So what I was objecting to, is the notion that their lives are so terrible that they don't have anything to lose by sacrificing themselves fighting the Israelis.

The bulk of the sure to be rejected plan (which is obviously the Kushner plan in reality) is about improving quality of life for the Palestinians in various ways. If they got closer to what they want as far as borders, I can't really see that as better for them if the West Bank just turns into a highland version of Gaza. Their rejection will probably result in them getting all the things the don't like about the plan regardless, but without any of the compensating positives.

[Gaidin]

Are you implying this is apartheid?

Hell yes.

Dude, a relevant party wasn’t even present.

[irontaino]

This whole thing reeks of distraction. Both Trump and Netanyahu have some bad stuff going on in their political lives and need some smoke and mirrors for the public.

[Gromovnik]

This is the best plan in history of plans. It's yuge. It's tremendous.

[PointOfViewGun]

How people have the face to even suggest such a proposal is beyond me. This is clearly geared towards their own core voters who they're taking as fools.

It is brilliant to think that Palestinians making East Jerusalem their capital and Israelis making West Jerusalem their capital will lead to peaceful coexistence of these two people... the work of a stable genious \sarcasm.

You mean the way Turkish and Greek Cypriots living without a major incident for decades in Nicoasia?

[alhoon]

How people have the face to even suggest such a proposal is beyond me. This is clearly geared towards their own core voters who they're taking as fools.



You mean the way Turkish and Greek Cypriots living without a major incident for decades in Nicoasia?

No, I mean like Palestinians and Israelis living next to each other without a major incident after... is it 4.5 millenia of incidents? Is it more?


Wait, what are you even arguing for? You yourself, in that same post admitted the plan is a farce geared towards the idiots and fanatics in the hard core of either facing-problems leader.

[PointOfViewGun]

As I said, one might be able to draw some parallels between the PA's territory and Bantustans, but Israel proper isn't much like apartheid South Africa, and neither is the history that led to the current situation.
Here are the results of a poll on that:
So 67% of Israelis support pardoning a solider who killed an incapacitated Palestinian who had just stabbed two soldiers in his unit. Some of them presumably believed Azaria's story that he saw the guy move. There have been similar incidences when Palestinians have been down like that and have triggered explosive vests. I doubt Azaria's story, and I think it's right that they prosecuted him, but I don't consider support for pardoning someone who killed an incapacitated combatant (who had just stabbed guys Azaria knew) to be the same as support of indiscriminate killing of civilians. Many people who supported him claim to believe it was legitimate self-defense.
Okay...
So?
I don't know what "a lot" means. Looks like a handful, but why wouldn't some of them be positive about strikes on the people who have been constantly firing rockets at Israeli cities? I also watched the fighting during the summer of 2014, although I just happened to be working on a tel with a view of northern Gaza.
I can't really take seriously a source that refers to them as "peaceful" protesters, but I'm not surprised that 83% of Israelis support the policy of using live fire against a homicidal mob attempting to breach their country's border. Though I do recognize that there were innocent collateral causalities among actual peaceful protesters who were present. Had the IDF not used live fire to prevent a breach of the border, many more Palestinians would have been killed. This has already been discussed in detail in another thread.
Again though, even if we were to accept that Israelis are just as hostile as Palestinians. That doesn't make a population among whom ~60% support armed attacks against Israeli civilians inside of Israel any less of a potential threat to Israelis. Keep in mind that Papay's initial post that I responded to was complaining about the IDF watching Palestinians constantly.
I certainly didn't claim that the Palestinians are without any legitimate grievances or some such nonsense. There is no solution that even comes close to meeting minimum demands of both parties.

*que in applause* Lovely rant. Your tactic to present a one-sides argument while diluting any real issue is noted. So, yeah, if you wanna highlight one group as the bad party do try to be impartial, especially when you're coming to the defense of a country that is claiming the extreme high morality.

Nice try with the IDF point as well. You were clearly arguing in relation to the apartheid issue. However, how you argue something is as important as what you argue for or against. Carry on.

No, I mean like Palestinians and Israelis living next to each other without a major incident after... is it 4.5 millenia of incidents? Is it more?
Wait, what are you even arguing for? You yourself, in that same post admitted the plan is a farce geared towards the idiots and fanatics in the hard core of either facing-problems leader.

You don't seem to understand what you were arguing about. The plan gives the entirety of Jerusalem to Israel and you wrongfully pointed out why the two communities would live next to each other in a divided city. The alternative is doable. It exists in reality. Turkish and Greek Cypriots have been living next to each other in a divided city for over 40 years after an attempted ethnic cleansing. Jews and Arabs lived in relative peace for many times in the past thousands of years.

[sumskilz]

Nice try with the IDF point as well. You were clearly arguing in relation to the apartheid issue.

I was clearly responding to this post:

Its actually worst than south african apartheid. At least in South Africa blacks could travel from one place to another without having soldiers watching them constantly

Which is why I quoted it.

[alhoon]

You don't seem to understand what you were arguing about. The plan gives the entirety of Jerusalem to Israel and you wrongfully pointed out why the two communities would live next to each other in a divided city. The alternative is doable. It exists in reality. Turkish and Greek Cypriots have been living next to each other in a divided city for over 40 years after an attempted ethnic cleansing. Jews and Arabs lived in relative peace for many times in the past thousands of years.

Eh... no. Trump's retarded plan suggests a divided city with a small part of East Jerusalem (Abu Dis) as a capital for the Palestinian state in what will lead to yearly bloodbaths.
|https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...BN1ZR1SR?il=03

"Trump set in motion a four-year timeline for Palestinians to agree to a security arrangement with Israel, halt attacks by the Islamist militant group Hamas and set up governing institutions in order to establish a Palestinian state with its capital in Abu Dis, a part of east Jerusalem."

Thinking that a divided city in Israel's case would work just because it is not too bad in Cyprus is naïve. Even with a Berlin Wall, it would cause so much animosity on either side that there would be attacks yearly.