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  1. #1

    Default A few things on the Numidae

    After playing roughly 150 turns and acquiring what feels like a reasonably sized empire (all tribal turf on Western North Africa, Cyrene, 90% of Iberia), I think I got enough of a grasp on the most apparent design choices and mechanics of the faction. Honestly, I had fun, mostly because I did things really different than I usually do (building lots of allied governments and skirmishing cavalry armies), but I think there's lot of room for improvement. They are half finished on their own way, not like the Lusitanae that are very generic and without unique factional differences, but because their unique mechanics and factional differences were not sufficiently evolved to make much of a difference, so while the potential is clearly there, it seems like it was just left short of realizing it.

    My main grip are the pre-reform government choices. I can only talk about pre-reform because despite my best efforts I couldn't quite make the reform despite the 150 turns. Your government is directly mostly (to not say entirely) on the development and profiteering out of nomadic settlements. You can build a Urban Administration that will allow you to develop the land until it becomes a settled area, and with a very high Steppe Nomadism rating, the Subjugated Tribe, which gives +1000 minae a turn if you are friends with Carthage and very good military capabilities (focused on cavalry). Anything else will be a Tributary, which gives added income based on present trade goods, free-upkeep slots and farming bonus, but completely stunted development options. So that will result on you being able to only actively improve the 6 nomadic settlements in Africa (good luck beating the Egyptians to Libya though), being forced to either go allied government to have some degree of development elsewhere, or Tributary and hope to make some profit out of it. At least two of these 6 settlements are strongly Arid Nomadism though, so you will have to wait a good while (namely, more than my 150 turns) to get the chance to do Urban or Subjugated on them. So that makes it a whooping 3 settlements you can develop with your factional government until you reform, which requires you to settle 4 nomadic camps. Numbers are not on your favor.

    Edit: I think Subjugated Tribe should be locked by province, rather than steppe nomadism. The idea that Carthage will pay you to keep a Steppe Nomad tribe you created in a previously Arid settlement in check is a bit odd to say the least.

    Furthermore, I am really not a fan of Tributary. The absence of any recruitment will make garrisoning these settlements extremely awkward, having to rely on the local pool of mercenaries (luckily they seem to interact with the free upkeep slots). They offer a unique trait for the governor, Tribute Collector, that immediately awards +10% tax and seems to have the opportunity for developing further, but the only outcome I got so far was Corrupted Tribute Collector, adding +1 Unrest and -5% tax (cumulative with the previous trait, so you are still making +5% tax) on every governor, even ones that would later get the highest levels of the Just trait line. At least you are getting something, and the other "advanced" factional government types also award a governor trait (no apparent evolution) with small but useful bonuses, so I guess I will be hard pressed to find outright harmful governors like I so often did with the Greek.

    My other problem with the factional governments is that they seem to curb your active expansion until you are reformed. You have no special interactions within Africa, you have no special interactions with Greek Poleis, no interactions with Carthaginian Colonies, no interaction with Iberian lands, nothing. If it is not one of these 6 mentioned nomadic provinces, you either go Tributary and have the place unable to fend for itself, or go Allied and have to get a client ruling the place.

    Finally, I will not repeat myself, so the criticism on this bug report (https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...-Service-issue) will be echoed. Edit: I'd like to point out that the majority of my generals that partook on the mercenary adventures got negative outcomes, which is not bad, just something worth keeping in mind.

    Overall, my enjoyment came mostly of the battles I fought and the surprising effectiveness of skirmishing cavalry. With pretty much any other faction, at 150 turns, I would be close to beating the game, so maybe the Numidae provided the intended challenge, but simply because I couldn't do anything about it. What I did on Iberia I would have done better with basically any faction, even India, because I would at least not have to rely on Allied Government to make something useful out of the place. I will try to play them again and pay special attention to the nomad camps to try to get my reform as soon as I can and see how it goes.
    Last edited by RodriguesSting; January 28, 2020 at 06:57 AM.

  2. #2
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: A few things on the Numidae

    Very good feedback RodriguesSting, it's rare to see some feedback from the Numidian faction, +1 rep from me

  3. #3

    Default Re: A few things on the Numidae

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Very good feedback RodriguesSting, it's rare to see some feedback from the Numidian faction, +1 rep from me
    Thanks but I do really find them interesting. They are one of the three factions that have the Western Poleis culture (after reform) and are almost as cosmopolitan as the Carthaginians. I'm just a little let down for the rough edges I mentioned and the unrealized potential.

  4. #4

    Default Re: A few things on the Numidae

    I highly recommend you to play the Areaukoi if you haven't tried it already, they are what I would call relatively well developed. As for Numidian lack of governments, the evolution until which you are hardly able to do anything is intended for several factions. Bactria literally can not put a proper government outside their starting provinces before getting independence. The limitations you spoked of are applied to ALL Nomadic factions, of which Parthia probably has the best deal. I do believe there should be another fallback for reforms for those in case the politicial situation drastically changes though, like eliminating Carthage or Seleucids.

  5. #5
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: A few things on the Numidae

    Always good to have feedback on one of the lesser-played factions. There have been some changes to Numidia in the patch, though not fundamental ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    Edit: I think Subjugated Tribe should be locked by province, rather than steppe nomadism. The idea that Carthage will pay you to keep a Steppe Nomad tribe you created in a previously Arid settlement in check is a bit odd to say the least.
    Actually, this isn't odd at all. What Carthage is paying for is you to keep the nomadic raiders away from their door. It's mirrored in a mechanic the Carthaginian player has, whereby as long as they are allied to Numidia, they are not raided.

    I do wonder if we need some related mechanic for the Numidian player, making that business of acting as a buffer more active?

  6. #6

    Default Re: A few things on the Numidae

    The main issue with the Numidae reformation, though, is that it requires to turn 4 camps into settlements. Africa has 5 on total, 2 with pitfully low population, so I have to try my luck with the two pastoral settlements on North Iberia. Maybe there's a quicker way to work that out, I will try.

  7. #7

    Default Re: A few things on the Numidae

    Yo, I was browsing the forums today and thought I'd help you out here a bit. I've played a few long Numidia campaigns, they are one of my favorite factions.

    I think your difficulty with the reforms here is that you are a bit confused on the requirements.

    For one, you don't have to convert 4 settlements, it is only three. And you start with one already reformed (your capital). All you need to do is convert Sigan and Capsa to cities. This will take 100-150 turns as it should; reforming them too quickly would be boring imo.

    Also, you can't reform pastoral settlesments in Iberia as they are not nomadic. You also cannot reform other settlements in Africa, because they cannot be converted to cities.

    Doing the above will trigger the reform. Like I said I've played the campaign multiple times so trust me it works . I hope that helps you.

  8. #8

    Default Re: A few things on the Numidae

    As a side note as well, a difficulty you are having with garrisoning the tribes in Afrcia is you are trying to install a settled factional government on a group of, well, tribes. Instead, consider allying with these tribes, and creating a Numidian Confederation in Africa.

    You will get access to strong units this way, including strange and fun ones like Garamantine Chariots . You cannot convert the tribal territories outside of the 3 I mentioned earlier, so there isn't any point in installing factional governments in these places anyway.

  9. #9
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: A few things on the Numidae

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimalim View Post
    As a side note as well, a difficulty you are having with garrisoning the tribes in Afrcia is you are trying to install a settled factional government on a group of, well, tribes. Instead, consider allying with these tribes, and creating a Numidian Confederation in Africa.

    You will get access to strong units this way, including strange and fun ones like Garamantine Chariots . You cannot convert the tribal territories outside of the 3 I mentioned earlier, so there isn't any point in installing factional governments in these places anyway.
    This recalls the mechanism from EBI with map of governments I, II and III/IV. In the EBII this is less direct but at the end works in the same style. Great work of the EBII team!

  10. #10

    Default Re: A few things on the Numidae

    After all the experience I gained and, added to toying around with the Sweboz lately, I can say most of my criticisms towards the Numidae are, indeed, unfair. Yes, I was mixing Pastoral with Nomadic regions. Nomadic regions, for the Numidae, are basically worthless, as they don't have any actual factional government they can instill there other than tributary and, after DECADES of cultural conversion, maybe subjugated tribe, but by then, it is entirely possible (if not likely) that Carthage is already just a painful chapter in your history. The allied government forms would allow them to act as fairly effective (although low-ish replenishment) recruitment centers, specially for cavalry.

    Edit: Otherwise, your expansionist game just actually starts after you reform, and the Satrapies outside Africa should offer rather adequate building and recruitment options, from what I remember from then and know by now.

    It is also unfair my criticism that they don't interact with Poleis, as only a few non-greek factions do, and the rest can interact with to some level: the philehelene or miselene trait, leading to Happy or Unhappy people, potentially turning the happiness penalty into a bonus. They also interact with Carthaginan Trade Posts about as much as every other faction other than Carthage does: they can enjoy the economic and societal benefits of the early levels.

    I also would like to add that, even with my terrible management due to lack of experience and familiarity, the Numidae were ludicrously rich, even playing very passively, the amount of minae entering my treasure was outright obscene, so much I could just buy a bunch of core Carthaginan provinces like nothing, and afford dirty cheap but terrifically effective tribal cavalry armies that would just blase through North Africa.

    So overall, I would like to retract most of my criticisms, maybe keeping the Mercenary trait not excluding the other ethnicities as it probably should.

    So in conclusion, I think I will give them another shot, this time more informed, with the trait file at hand. I can't overstate how much this improves gameplay, as all your decisions are now informed.
    Last edited by RodriguesSting; February 25, 2020 at 03:48 PM.

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