Thread: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

  1. #3681

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Big Pharma benefits from selling more expensive product that population is forced to consume, thus guaranteeing demand through government's regulating on its behalf. I wonder what stock portfolios of politicians that want vaccine mandates look like, or how many of them will join board of directors in one of those companies after they are voted out.

  2. #3682

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Vaccine's are not more expensive overall though. The total revenue pharmaceutical companies would get from over the counter treatments compared to someone who only gets vaccinated and doesn't need such drugs. In fact, they're also forfeiting their flu treatment sales with that option as well. Vaccine's can be profitable but they are risky and they are not more profitable compared to alternatives.
    The Armenian Issue

  3. #3683

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
    The workplace associate of mine whose daughter contracted COVID and asked for prayers (despite never saying anything about other people who have been victims and has in fact openly flouted and mocked any efforts at mitigation and prevention) has likely contracted the virus herself. She has made it quite clear that she is terrified, especially since she has yet to get her test results back (it's been four days).

    If only she could have prevented this by being more safe outside of work.

    Hopefully she doesn't contribute to the overflowing hospitals at this point in my area. I'd hate for her to take a bed from a car crash victim. The only hospital in the city is at 90%+ occupancy on beds and ~80% occupancy in the ICU.
    It's pretty much become a set pattern:

    1: "LOL! Covid is obviously faked by the deep state to tarnish Trump's spotless image!"

    2: "Vaccines are poison and Fauci is the devil! The vaxxed will be dead in two years! Stay away from them or you will catch vaccine from them!"

    3: "I don't feel so good."

    4: "Our family member is dead. Give us money."

    EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLEPOST

    Some of the antivax/covid denialists I've seen on other sites have started to pass around claims from Inventing the AIDS Virus updated for covid. Long story short, literally everyone in all medical-related fields are part of a vast conspiracy to suppress THE TRUTH (TM). The antivax/covid denialists in these places universally agree on that point, but only disagree on what THE TRUTH (TM) is:

    -Covid is harmless and all of the deaths are faked by "Big Pharma".

    -Covid is harmless and the deaths are caused by drug use and poor diet.

    -Covid is harmless and doctors are actively murdering alleged victims to keep the fraud going.

    -There are no such things as bacteria or viruses. All alleged "diseases" are the result of poor diet.
    Last edited by Coughdrop addict; September 07, 2021 at 05:20 AM.

  4. #3684
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    I think the concern with many is just how rapidly the high-level medical authorities and media wrote off a potential treatment that seemed to have some frontline promise, in a repeat of Hydroxychloraquine.

    Regarding vaccines, I had a thought occur to me: what if the vaccinated have become the forefront agents of communal spread? We know the vaccine does not prevent you from catching it, and it seems it doesn’t prevent contagiousness either. Considering the vaccinated may feel only mildly ill (writing it off as an ordinary cold) or may be entirely asymptomatic, they will be entering social situations where a person who definitely feels ill and has no vaccine protection would likely avoid until they feel well again. I simply wonder if this race to get vaccinated might make be making things worse?
    Last edited by EmperorBatman999; September 07, 2021 at 09:13 AM.

  5. #3685

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    The rush is there because Big Pharma generates insane profits from the ordeal, especially in the event that government mandates the population to consume their products on their behalf. Sooner then later "booster shots" could stop being free as well. As I mentioned above, I wonder how much stock in pharmaceutical companies do our neoliberal overlords have and how many of them would end up getting upper-tier positions in those companies after they are no longer in the office.
    It does seem to repeat same pattern as forever wars of the past 20 years, where politicians push for more wars simply to justify military spending, and then military corporations return the favor.

  6. #3686

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    I think the concern with many is just how rapidly the high-level medical authorities and media wrote off a potential treatment that seemed to have some frontline promise, in a repeat of Hydroxychloraquine.

    Regarding vaccines, I had a thought occur to me: what if the vaccinated have become the forefront agents of communal spread? We know the vaccine does not prevent you from catching it, and it seems it doesn’t prevent contagiousness either. Considering the vaccinated may feel only mildly ill (writing it off as an ordinary cold) or may be entirely asymptomatic, they will be entering social situations where a person who definitely feels ill and has no vaccine protection would likely avoid until they feel well again. I simply wonder if this race to get vaccinated might make be making things worse?
    When you get vaccinated the virus gets to spend much less time in your body. That reduces your contagiousness. So, it does not prevent you from catching the virus but it makes it less likely.
    The Armenian Issue

  7. #3687

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    It doesn't make it "less likely", it simply reduces the symptoms. Vaccines don't prevent you from catching it. I keep seeing this pattern that biggest supporters of covid vaccines and mandates for them tend to spout statements clearly indicating their knowledge on what vaccines even are is severely limited.

  8. #3688
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    When you get vaccinated the virus gets to spend much less time in your body. That reduces your contagiousness. So, it does not prevent you from catching the virus but it makes it less likely.
    But when you are holding the virus but “feeling up” to going out in the public world, you are now part of the public health risk. That window of time might be smaller (a few days versus a few weeks), but during that period, you are shedding virus particles even if you don’t feel terribly sick.

    At least in the US, I notice a threshold where people will go to work and do public errands if their symptoms are consistent with a typical “mild” cold — sneezing, congestion, moderate sore throat. An American has to feel very sick before they remove themselves from public, like intense fatigue, high fever, heavy soreness. The financial or disciplinary consequences for calling sick are otherwise too high, and in any case, every adult has errands that require going out in public, like grocery shopping. I am disappointed this pandemic has not created a new understanding of sick time off for work and school. On topic though: the vaccine makes COVID feel like a cold rather than an intense flu, so those symptoms naturally incline people to go into public rather than quarantining: that is an inherent risk that is extenuating this pandemic.

  9. #3689
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Try 5 dollars. You're not gonna get a single doze either. You'll be expected to buy them in boxes like you'd buy Advil over the counter, paying upwards of 30 dollars per box. Vaccine prices vary. Astra Zeneca costs little over 2.15 dollars. J&J is about 10 dollars. Those vaccines cost that much because of all the research put into it. Ivermectin doesn't really require that as there are people willing to drink arsenic just to spite the vaccine overlords... Just repackage the existing formulas to say COVID19 on it and they're good to go. No need to lower the prices as well. It would be much better for a pharmaceutical company to just produce Ivermectin instead of putting resources into a vaccine.
    Once again, you're wrong. Ivermectin is an off-patent drug; meaning it can be (and is) mass produced in India. If I recall correctly, the Covid kits distributed in India cost $1.15 per unit.

    ...

    Ivermectin is approved for Covid treatment in Japan:

    https://gnews.org/1476750/

  10. #3690

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    It doesn't make it "less likely", it simply reduces the symptoms. Vaccines don't prevent you from catching it. I keep seeing this pattern that biggest supporters of covid vaccines and mandates for them tend to spout statements clearly indicating their knowledge on what vaccines even are is severely limited.
    We have been over this. It doesn't simply reduce symptoms. You have recognized this before. Why are you repeating it?


    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    But when you are holding the virus but “feeling up” to going out in the public world, you are now part of the public health risk. That window of time might be smaller (a few days versus a few weeks), but during that period, you are shedding virus particles even if you don’t feel terribly sick.

    At least in the US, I notice a threshold where people will go to work and do public errands if their symptoms are consistent with a typical “mild” cold — sneezing, congestion, moderate sore throat. An American has to feel very sick before they remove themselves from public, like intense fatigue, high fever, heavy soreness. The financial or disciplinary consequences for calling sick are otherwise too high, and in any case, every adult has errands that require going out in public, like grocery shopping. I am disappointed this pandemic has not created a new understanding of sick time off for work and school. On topic though: the vaccine makes COVID feel like a cold rather than an intense flu, so those symptoms naturally incline people to go into public rather than quarantining: that is an inherent risk that is extenuating this pandemic.
    That's more likely if you're not vaccinated as there are a lot of asymptomatic cases. If you're vaccinated there is a better chance that the virus will be defeated before it's able to spread or that the virus will have less time to spread. So, the idea is that in addition to carrying less of a risk to develop worse symptoms your contribution to spreading the virus is lessened.

    However, I disagree that the vaccine makes it like a cold and that that would make people carry on with their lives. Nowadays, a cold is treated as if it's COVID19. People are scared. I doubt people would just brush it off. That riskhowever, is likely similar if you're vaccinated or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    Once again, you're wrong. Ivermectin is an off-patent drug; meaning it can be (and is) mass produced in India. If I recall correctly, the Covid kits distributed in India cost $1.15 per unit.
    ...
    Ivermectin is approved for Covid treatment in Japan:
    https://gnews.org/1476750/
    Ivermectin being an off-patent drug doesn't mean every one can produce. Those that do will not have the incentive to produce them for cheaper. Drugs also don't have comparable prices in different countries. Your comparison to India is moot.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; September 07, 2021 at 01:01 PM.
    The Armenian Issue

  11. #3691

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Vaccinations do not affect the spread, they only suppress symptoms and make it easier to treat. You can't realistically suppress spread of a viral infection, you simply let it burn out and build up the herd immunity. Nobody was forced by government to get vaccines in 2000s when SARS was happening.

  12. #3692

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Well, they do effect the spread in many ways. Vaccinated people have an effective fighting mechanisms against the virus compared to unvaccinated people. That means they get to spread a lesser amount of virus even if they carry it. That period that the vaccinated carry the virus if they do is significantly less compared to unvaccinated.

    Nobody needed to get vaccinated in earlier SARS outbreaks because there was no need for it as the spread was highly limited. The herd immunity argument have already been tested and failed in real world cases where the prolonged pandemic circumstances aid the virus to keep evolving.
    The Armenian Issue

  13. #3693

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Sweden's example proves the opposite. I think the main problem with your reasoning is that you think vaccine is some kind of video-game immunity spell or something like that. It doesn't work that way. It helps reduce symptoms, but even with reduced time you carry the virus, you are still carrying it, and no evidence was presented that shorter lifespan makes a significant difference, hence examples of nations that already beat the virus.

  14. #3694
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    There is nothing "contrarian" about being against government overreach in citizen's private life. Unless you want to repeat things like American eugenics(a miracle procedure that was approved by peer-reviewed journals that neoliberal cultists treat like bible today) or Soviet lysenkoism (when communists believing that genetics isn't real caused a huge agricultural problem and almost caused a famine), you want the government to have as little say in individual's life as possible. If anything, the problem is a really attitude of government officials and bureaucrats who seem to forgotten their place as, well, lowly public servants and they try to act like some kind of feudal nobility, while the population are rightless surfs, while democracy is their divine mandate to rule.
    Australian government is certainly long overdue on such a lesson and I just hope that it will end non-violently, but with that government out of power and replaced by one with, well, respect for individual rights and common sense.
    I think you are correct to an extent. I was using the term contrarian, but the term is perhaps better described by Yascha Mounk as 180ism. By being diametrically opposed by something simply because it is part of a collection of ideas that people you disagree with hold, rather than disagreeing with the idea. Mounk suggests that contrarians are people who place themselves outside this identity binary.

    For example, usually I argue for progressive points of view here. But in the last week I have argued traditionally conservative positions twice: that Biden is wrong on Afghanistan and that conservative views on abortion must be appreciated, and in both cases initially someone debated me as if I was holding the opposite opinion, because they see me as progressive. According to Mounk, that would make me the contrarian - for going against an expected position, and the debater a 180er, for arguing as if I was stereotypically progressive in all cases irrespective of what I actually said...

    Covid contrarians are actually Covid 180ers. Who are at times dismissing overwhelming consensus in favour of sketchy alternative views just because. Then they're rationalising the view they want after the fact.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  15. #3695

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    You are right about vaccine mandate supporters pushing this crap on normal people just because they want to, and only figuring out rationalization later, which explains why even in this thread no valid argument has been presented as to why would forcing population to take in sketchy rushed big pharma product is a good idea.
    I think its something to do with slave/servant mentality, coupled with desire to "prove yourself" and virtue signal about how much of a good person you are while doing nothing. Same reason why evangelicals wanted to force prayers in schools or before that wanted to ban alcohol sales.
    To a degree its contrarianism too, because its typically left-wing/liberal people that want to find a reason to spite their ideological opponents, who are more inclined to defend individual rights, ironically pushing liberal contrarians to the point where they argue for what is essentially Maoist/Third-Reich style medical policy. But yeah, support for lockdowns and vaccine mandates is certainly a left-wing from of 180-ism as well.

  16. #3696

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Sweden's example proves the opposite. I think the main problem with your reasoning is that you think vaccine is some kind of video-game immunity spell or something like that. It doesn't work that way. It helps reduce symptoms, but even with reduced time you carry the virus, you are still carrying it, and no evidence was presented that shorter lifespan makes a significant difference, hence examples of nations that already beat the virus.
    Are you invoking Sweden as a nation that beat the virus without vaccines? Because Sweden neither beat the virus nor its a vaccine-free country.
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  17. #3697
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post

    That's more likely if you're not vaccinated as there are a lot of asymptomatic cases. If you're vaccinated there is a better chance that the virus will be defeated before it's able to spread or that the virus will have less time to spread. So, the idea is that in addition to carrying less of a risk to develop worse symptoms your contribution to spreading the virus is lessened.

    However, I disagree that the vaccine makes it like a cold and that that would make people carry on with their lives. Nowadays, a cold is treated as if it's COVID19. People are scared. I doubt people would just brush it off. That riskhowever, is likely similar if you're vaccinated or not.
    Notice that it is less of a risk, rather than no risk or even negligible risk. Besides the annual flu shot, which is pretty hit-or-miss depending on how well they do at predicting the dominant flu strain, in what other vaccine would we consider successful with the kind of infection rates we see among the vaccinated? When I got the chickenpox vaccine as a young child, I was pretty much guaranteed not to contract or spread chickenpox, even if one of my kindergarten classmates was sick. But with the COVID vaccines, if I get it, I can still get sick a few weeks later and spread it to other people, and this happens now very often. Even more concerning: because people who are vaccinated against COVID feel like they are personally protected, they are less likely to believe their case of the cough is COVID and attribute it to allergies or a more pedestrian malady, so they will go out into public anyway. Any period of time in which you are exhibiting symptoms, you are contagious.

    And the vaccinated often describe their COVID case post-shot as being like a mild cold. The talking point among the medical experts states now that it does not prevent you from getting sick and in many cases will only ease your symptoms down to a mild illness, which in this case would resemble a head or chest cold. Yet, during that time, you are sick, and you can spread it, and there is no way to get around that. Government and medical officials have tried to give the vaccinated a free pass from quarantining, social-distancing, or other public health measures as an incentive, but it has also created an attitude of irresponsibility among the vaccinated, which is now playing a prominent role propelling the pandemic.

    Finally, and this may be an issue with the US system of healthcare and workplace practices, but the pandemic has not changed the paradigm around work and personal health. Many executives want their employees back into the office to maximize productivity, and do not want to give their employees paid or unpaid time off unless the employee can expressly prove they have COVID (i.e. by showing a positive test result). Furthermore, American employees often feel that taking any time off will hurt their financial prospects and damage their chances of promotion and pay-raises. Now, America needs a serious structural change in the way time-off is handled, and Americans should have more mandatory holidays and sick time, period, but this isn't the state of things, and the American workplace is the perfect place for a supercluster waiting to happen because Americans' "Work First" attitude, both on the shop floor and in the CEO's office.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    You are right about vaccine mandate supporters pushing this crap on normal people just because they want to, and only figuring out rationalization later, which explains why even in this thread no valid argument has been presented as to why would forcing population to take in sketchy rushed big pharma product is a good idea.
    I think its something to do with slave/servant mentality, coupled with desire to "prove yourself" and virtue signal about how much of a good person you are while doing nothing. Same reason why evangelicals wanted to force prayers in schools or before that wanted to ban alcohol sales.
    To a degree its contrarianism too, because its typically left-wing/liberal people that want to find a reason to spite their ideological opponents, who are more inclined to defend individual rights, ironically pushing liberal contrarians to the point where they argue for what is essentially Maoist/Third-Reich style medical policy. But yeah, support for lockdowns and vaccine mandates is certainly a left-wing from of 180-ism as well.
    Notice how every shortcoming of the vaccine is blamed on the unvaccinated, rather than the structural problems around the vaccine itself (hasty research, trialing, and production, the favoritism offered towards novel rather than proven development methods, and so on). Almost, dare I say, how the Soviets blamed every shortcoming of State Socialism on supposed internal enemies and "capitalist freeloaders," rather than the inherent problems with the system itself or how it was administered. This is not to call the vaccine crowd commies or any sort of nonsense like that, but their frame of argument resembles methods used in authoritarian collectivist systems.
    Last edited by EmperorBatman999; September 08, 2021 at 10:59 AM.

  18. #3698

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Are you invoking Sweden as a nation that beat the virus without vaccines? Because Sweden neither beat the virus nor its a vaccine-free country.
    Sweden had less excess mortality then nations that enforced lockdowns and now pushing for vaccine mandates.
    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    Notice how every shortcoming of the vaccine is blamed on the unvaccinated, rather than the structural problems around the vaccine itself (hasty research, trialing, and production, the favoritism offered towards novel rather than proven development methods, and so on). Almost, dare I say, how the Soviets blamed every shortcoming of State Socialism on supposed internal enemies and "capitalist freeloaders," rather than the inherent problems with the system itself or how it was administered. This is not to call the vaccine crowd commies or any sort of nonsense like that, but their frame of argument resembles methods used in authoritarian collectivist systems.
    Exactly. Its not the vaccines themselves, its the way states go about forcing the population to take them instead of the rational approach where vaccine status can only be viewed as a matter of private medical record not to be disclosed to anyone but one's own treating physician.

  19. #3699
    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Ivermectin being an off-patent drug doesn't mean every one can produce. Those that do will not have the incentive to produce them for cheaper. Drugs also don't have comparable prices in different countries. Your comparison to India is moot.
    You keep changing your argument. First you say that Big Pharma makes the same amount of money on Ivermectin as it does on the "vaccine". This simply is not true. Big Pharma makes nothing off an off-patent drug unless they produce it and they can't produce it as cheaply as it can be made in India.

    India can produce the drug and make a profit off of it because their costs are lower. A huge slice of drugs sold in America are made in India and China, so the only thing moot is the argument you make.

  20. #3700

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Sweden had less excess mortality then nations that enforced lockdowns and now pushing for vaccine mandates.
    Compared to Denmark, Norway and Finland, Sweden had a considerably higher excess mortality especially those other similar countries enacted lockdown measures.


    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    Notice that it is less of a risk, rather than no risk or even negligible risk. Besides the annual flu shot, which is pretty hit-or-miss depending on how well they do at predicting the dominant flu strain, in what other vaccine would we consider successful with the kind of infection rates we see among the vaccinated? When I got the chickenpox vaccine as a young child, I was pretty much guaranteed not to contract or spread chickenpox, even if one of my kindergarten classmates was sick. But with the COVID vaccines, if I get it, I can still get sick a few weeks later and spread it to other people, and this happens now very often. Even more concerning: because people who are vaccinated against COVID feel like they are personally protected, they are less likely to believe their case of the cough is COVID and attribute it to allergies or a more pedestrian malady, so they will go out into public anyway. Any period of time in which you are exhibiting symptoms, you are contagious.

    And the vaccinated often describe their COVID case post-shot as being like a mild cold. The talking point among the medical experts states now that it does not prevent you from getting sick and in many cases will only ease your symptoms down to a mild illness, which in this case would resemble a head or chest cold. Yet, during that time, you are sick, and you can spread it, and there is no way to get around that. Government and medical officials have tried to give the vaccinated a free pass from quarantining, social-distancing, or other public health measures as an incentive, but it has also created an attitude of irresponsibility among the vaccinated, which is now playing a prominent role propelling the pandemic.
    You can't expect anyone to talk in absolutes, especially in topics like this. I'm not sure why you'd even expect it. I can only classify this as not understanding how vaccines in general work. Vaccines don't always. I personally had to repeat my Hepatitis vaccine before I could enter my university as my blood test didn't produce antibodies. Even the vaccine for chickenpox doesn't provide 100% protection. You are not guaranteed not to contract or spread it. Just like the COVID19 vaccine, with the chickenpox vaccine, your body gets to learn how to fight the virus, which means your body doesn't develop bad symptoms and is able to battle it out much faster, sometimes before you can spread it to others. That means when you get the vaccine you decrease your contribution to spread of the virus by a lot.

    Also, when you get the vaccine and you feel a little sick you can't spread it as you don't have the virus. Vaccines don't contain viruses that you can spread.


    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    You keep changing your argument. First you say that Big Pharma makes the same amount of money on Ivermectin as it does on the "vaccine". This simply is not true. Big Pharma makes nothing off an off-patent drug unless they produce it and they can't produce it as cheaply as it can be made in India.

    India can produce the drug and make a profit off of it because their costs are lower. A huge slice of drugs sold in America are made in India and China, so the only thing moot is the argument you make.
    Not sure where I said that. My posts always argued that it would be easier for big pharmaceutical companies to sell Ivermectin, which doesn't require any research, and make more money out of it. Your posts ignores pretty much all I've said on it while merely repeating the same claims that have been addressed. Show me where I changed my argument.
    The Armenian Issue

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