Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

[Stario]

Some people keep saying that lockdowns and masks are useless and harmful. For those who keep falsely saying that antilockdown Sweden has better data than most of lockdowns countries in Europe (a few days ago, Sweden ranked 19th worst among 44 European countries, deaths per million)

So Sweden is ranked about the middle...interesting, you'd expect they would be worst by a mile among the 44!?

In any case, I still don't think for those countries that went the "aggressive" lockdown route it was necessary. Particularly for a virus with a population-wide IFR of approximately 1.0%. Albeit this varies according to the age distribution in that particular population, I.E. countries with older populations will have a higher IFR than ones with a younger population.

Interestingly a rough IFR (whole population), of some other viral diseases for comparison is as follows: Ebola 30-85%; Nipah virus 40%-75%; A/H5N1 influenza: 50%; Hantavirus: 30%–40%; The 2003 SARS-CoV-1= 10%; seasonal influenza 0.1%...

[PointOfViewGun]

This is why lockdowns aren't working in the USA & why the death toll in USA is so high compared to countries like Australia I.E. very difficult to control the virus once in gets into a population that is so dense. When the whole of Australia (roughly similar size of mainland USA excluding Alaska), has nearly the same population as a single state of Florida, you really begin to appreciate the scale of things...

The reason they didn't have the desired effect is the incoherence in how they were implemented. Even at half-assed capacity they likely kept the death toll lower than what it could be. There is no sense in what you're arguing. It's highly ignorant. Australia have similarly dense cities compared to cities like Miami. Once the virus gets into these cities its equally hard to manage. Yet, Australia managed to handle them just fine. Pointing out Australia has more empty land is merely your cop out to accept that what you're trying to argue has no merit.

So Sweden is ranked about the middle...interesting, you'd expect they would be worst by a mile among the 44!?

In any case, I still don't think for those countries that went the "aggressive" lockdown route it was necessary. Particularly for a virus with a population-wide IFR of approximately 1.0%. Albeit this varies according to the age distribution in that particular population, I.E. countries with older populations will have a higher IFR than ones with a younger population.

Interestingly a rough IFR (whole population), of some other viral diseases for comparison is as follows: Ebola 30-85%; Nipah virus 40%-75%; A/H5N1 influenza: 50%; Hantavirus: 30%–40%; The 2003 SARS-CoV-1= 10%; seasonal influenza 0.1%...

IFR rate of COVID19 in USA based on reported cases is 1.7%. This is 2.8% for UK, 1.8% for France and 2.2% for EU overall.

[B. W.]

An article on vaccine safety:

https://www.americanthinker.com/arti...ath_spike.html

[PointOfViewGun]

An article on vaccine safety:
https://www.americanthinker.com/arti...ath_spike.html

This is a perfect example of lying through statistics. Anyone who takes the time to go to the VAERS website and download the data sets can take a look and see. The data in question does not just show deaths caused by a vaccine. It shows anyone that dies that had a vaccine. Case in point is 958443 data point from 8th of January 2021. Patient committed suicide by gunshot two days after she received vaccination. If everyone was vaccinated in USA the number of entries in VAERS could easily equal to the total death numbers in USA.

You know what? I actually combined their vaccination and adverse effect data on over 180 thousand cases that is in their 2021 database. My computer hates me for attempting it and then filtering it to see how many of those cases were tied to people with COVID19 vaccinations. The article speaks of about 4 thousand people that died. Only 338 of them happened to had a COVID19 vaccination. The suicide data point is one of them...

[tgoodenow]

Damn Texas 0 coronavirus deaths while you fine gentlemen sit in lockdown.

[antaeus]

Damn Texas 0 coronavirus deaths while you clowns sit in lockdown.

Again... you brag about something that is abhorrent. 50,000+ people have died from Covid in Texas. The vast majority needlessly.

[Infidel144]

Use of fear to control behaviour in Covid crisis was ‘totalitarian’, admit scientists
Members of Scientific Pandemic Influenza Group on Behaviour express regret about ‘unethical’ methods

"SPI-B warned in March last year that ministers needed to increase “the perceived level of personal threat” from Covid-19 because “a substantial number of people still do not feel sufficiently personally threatened”.
Gavin Morgan, a psychologist on the team, said: “Clearly, using fear as a means of control is not ethical. Using fear smacks of totalitarianism. It’s not an ethical stance for any modern government. By nature I am an optimistic person, but all this has given me a more pessimistic view of people.”
...
"Ministers have faced repeated accusations that they ramped up the threat from the pandemic to justify lockdowns and coerce the public into abiding by them – a claim that will be examined by the forthcoming public inquiry into the pandemic response."
...
"One SPI-B scientist told Ms Dodsworth: “In March [2020] the Government was very worried about compliance and they thought people wouldn’t want to be locked down. There were discussions about fear being needed to encourage compliance, and decisions were made about how to ramp up the fear. The way we have used fear is dystopian.
“The use of fear has definitely been ethically questionable. It’s been like a weird experiment. Ultimately, it backfired because people became too scared.”"
...
"One warned that “people use the pandemic to grab power and drive through things that wouldn’t happen otherwise… We have to be very careful about the authoritarianism that is creeping in”."
...
"Another member of SPI-B said they were "stunned by the weaponisation of behavioural psychology" during the pandemic, and that “psychologists didn’t seem to notice when it stopped being altruistic and became manipulative. They have too much power and it intoxicates them”."

https://archive.is/fdNyd

[B. W.]

This is a perfect example of lying through statistics. Anyone who takes the time to go to the VAERS website and download the data sets can take a look and see. The data in question does not just show deaths caused by a vaccine. It shows anyone that dies that had a vaccine. Case in point is 958443 data point from 8th of January 2021. Patient committed suicide by gunshot two days after she received vaccination. If everyone was vaccinated in USA the number of entries in VAERS could easily equal to the total death numbers in USA.

You know what? I actually combined their vaccination and adverse effect data on over 180 thousand cases that is in their 2021 database. My computer hates me for attempting it and then filtering it to see how many of those cases were tied to people with COVID19 vaccinations. The article speaks of about 4 thousand people that died. Only 338 of them happened to had a COVID19 vaccination. The suicide data point is one of them...

I'm not just talking about deaths. Add in adverse reactions. Notably, Eric Clapton had a very bad reaction:

https://michaelsavage.com/eric-clapt...-angry-letter/

[Cope]

Use of fear to control behaviour in Covid crisis was ‘totalitarian’, admit scientists
Members of Scientific Pandemic Influenza Group on Behaviour express regret about ‘unethical’ methods

"SPI-B warned in March last year that ministers needed to increase “the perceived level of personal threat” from Covid-19 because “a substantial number of people still do not feel sufficiently personally threatened”.
Gavin Morgan, a psychologist on the team, said: “Clearly, using fear as a means of control is not ethical. Using fear smacks of totalitarianism. It’s not an ethical stance for any modern government. By nature I am an optimistic person, but all this has given me a more pessimistic view of people.”
...
"Ministers have faced repeated accusations that they ramped up the threat from the pandemic to justify lockdowns and coerce the public into abiding by them – a claim that will be examined by the forthcoming public inquiry into the pandemic response."
...
"One SPI-B scientist told Ms Dodsworth: “In March [2020] the Government was very worried about compliance and they thought people wouldn’t want to be locked down. There were discussions about fear being needed to encourage compliance, and decisions were made about how to ramp up the fear. The way we have used fear is dystopian.
“The use of fear has definitely been ethically questionable. It’s been like a weird experiment. Ultimately, it backfired because people became too scared.”"
...
"One warned that “people use the pandemic to grab power and drive through things that wouldn’t happen otherwise… We have to be very careful about the authoritarianism that is creeping in”."
...
"Another member of SPI-B said they were "stunned by the weaponisation of behavioural psychology" during the pandemic, and that “psychologists didn’t seem to notice when it stopped being altruistic and became manipulative. They have too much power and it intoxicates them”."

https://archive.is/fdNyd

That's just the era we live. Scepticism and liberty play second fiddle to statism, conformism and "safety":

[enoch]

That's just the era we live. Scepticism and liberty play second fiddle to statism, conformism and "safety":

Luv Neil. Empire! In the US we have Joe Rogan.

[Cyclops]

Bizarre there are zero political consequences for Boris Baggins despite utterly botching Great Britain's enviable pre-COVID setup.

The UK like the US has a very corrupt political process where placeholder parties bumble along protected by their media assets, and ordinary people die from preventable diseases, burn to death in towers, drink poisoned water, and get tortured to death by their own police forces. How are guys like Johnson, Andrew Glucksburg, Clinton and Trump not in gaol?

[antaeus]

The UK like the US has a very corrupt political process where placeholder parties bumble along protected by their media assets, and ordinary people die from preventable diseases, burn to death in towers, drink poisoned water, and get tortured to death by their own police forces. How are guys like Johnson, Andrew Glucksburg, Clinton and Trump not in gaol?

It's totally screwed. In New Zealand it was reported yesterday that more than half of parliament's members are property developers on the side - and they're ruling over housing policy that is struggling to contain house price inflation. Yet we keep voting for them.

Why we keep voting for them is easy: We don't vote for the best person for the job. We vote for the person who shows the charisma that aligns with our own wishes for ourselves. People vote for Boris because he's a bumbling idiot posh toff. It's a popularity contest. And once we align ourselves with that posh toff, our identity is tied to theirs, so we can't face up to their failings - we have to swallow them.

Now if we voted the same way we hire workers - looking for the best skillset for the role... blind to their personality and looks until after we've already narrowed the field to suitably qualified and experienced applicants... or better yet, vote blindly based on a CV or resume alone... We might get qualified professionals and fewer well connected sociopaths.

[Cope]

It's totally screwed. In New Zealand it was reported yesterday that more than half of parliament's members are property developers on the side - and they're ruling over housing policy that is struggling to contain house price inflation. Yet we keep voting for them.

Why we keep voting for them is easy: We don't vote for the best person for the job. We vote for the person who shows the charisma that aligns with our own wishes for ourselves. People vote for Boris because he's a bumbling idiot posh toff. It's a popularity contest. And once we align ourselves with that posh toff, our identity is tied to theirs, so we can't face up to their failings - we have to swallow them.

Now if we voted the same way we hire workers - looking for the best skillset for the role... blind to their personality and looks until after we've already narrowed the field to suitably qualified and experienced applicants... or better yet, vote blindly based on a CV or resume alone... We might get qualified professionals and fewer well connected sociopaths.

New Zealand is ranked 1st by the CPI; that means Transparency International consider the NZ govt to be the least corrupt in the world. The UK was ranked 11th, alongside Australia.

[antaeus]

New Zealand is ranked 1st by the CPI; that means Transparency International consider the NZ govt to be the least corrupt in the world. The UK was ranked 11th, alongside Australia.

Nice throwaway link. Who said they are corrupt? They're representing the best interested of their constituents.

[Cope]

Nice throwaway link. Who said they are corrupt? They're representing the best interested of their constituents.

Post #3011 actively accuses the British government of corruption. Post #3012 follows up by implying that the NZ govt. is also corrupt.

Bizarre there are zero political consequences for Boris Baggins despite utterly botching Great Britain's enviable pre-COVID setup.

The UK like the US has a very corrupt political process where placeholder parties bumble along protected by their media assets, and ordinary people die from preventable diseases, burn to death in towers, drink poisoned water, and get tortured to death by their own police forces. How are guys like Johnson, Andrew Glucksburg, Clinton and Trump not in gaol?

To which it was responded:

It's totally screwed. In New Zealand it was reported yesterday that more than half of parliament's members are property developers on the side - and they're ruling over housing policy that is struggling to contain house price inflation.

[antaeus]

Post #3011 actively accuses the British government of corruption. Post #3012 follows up by implying that the NZ govt. is also corrupt.

(I know it's unlikely that you'll admit it) but you have mistaken the forest for trees. The implication is that the entire system of elections by popular vote, has at it's heart a corruption. Not that the NZ government is explicitly corrupt - and thus ratings of corruption of agents within the system is a pointless inclusion.

But this is another conversation. It would be a good one.

But back to the discussion. Covid.

[Cope]

(I know it's unlikely that you'll admit it) but you have mistaken the forest for trees. The implication is that the entire system of elections by popular vote, has at it's heart a corruption. Not that the NZ government is explicitly corrupt - and thus ratings of corruption of agents within the system is a pointless inclusion.

But this is another conversation.

Spare me.

There was an explicit allegation that British govt was corrupt and its PM ought to be in gaol. This was followed up by a second allegation that NZ's parliament has a conflict of interest w/regard to housing policy - a claim which is tantamount to an accusation of corruption. That the electorate themselves were also accused of being complicit in this alleged corruption only further illustrates the hyperbole being used.

I should add that the accusations against NZ and its govt in particular are completely out of place considering the success with which they have managed the pandemic.

[antaeus]

Spare me.

There was an explicit allegation that British govt was corrupt and its PM ought to be in gaol. This was followed up by a second allegation that NZ's parliament has a conflict of interest w/regard to housing policy - a claim which is tantamount to an accusation of corruption. That the electorate themselves were also accused of being complicit in this alleged corruption only further illustrates the hyperbole being used.

OK I'll let you tell me what I intended when I made a comment.

I made a comparison of two completely unrelated issues that are representative examples of the same systemic issue. But OK. If you want to explain to me what I meant, rather than your misinterpretation of what I said, carry on :shrug:

It was an accusation of a key corruption in the way modern democracies are run, based on an exploitation of our nature as people. Like I said, if you disagree with me about what I posit as a fundamental flaw in democracy as we experience it, we should do it in another thread.

"Why we keep voting for them is easy: We don't vote for the best person for the job. We vote for the person who shows the charisma that aligns with our own wishes for ourselves. People vote for Boris because he's a bumbling idiot posh toff. It's a popularity contest. And once we align ourselves with that posh toff, our identity is tied to theirs, so we can't face up to their failings - we have to swallow them.

Now if we voted the same way we hire workers - looking for the best skillset for the role... blind to their personality and looks until after we've already narrowed the field to suitably qualified and experienced applicants... or better yet, vote blindly based on a CV or resume alone... We might get qualified professionals and fewer well connected sociopaths."

So comparisons of corruption between states in a system that has a particular corruption at it's core, is irrelevant. It is ok to err Cope. It makes your legitimate arguments more relatable. You can let it go now

And yes, NZ's response to Covid has been admirable. They have made mistakes along the way, but a clear governmental statement on following the science from the outset was an important benchmark to lay as far as public confidence goes. This has been followed by continually clear communications. Which IMO is the most important part of all of this debate.

[Cope]

OK I'll let you tell me what I intended when I made a comment.

I made a comparison of two completely unrelated issues that are representative examples of the same systemic issue. But OK. If you want to explain to me what I meant when I said

It is ok to err Cope. It makes your legitimate arguments more relatable. Let it go now.

In future it would perhaps help not to imply that the least corrupt government in the world is corrupt.

[Cyclops]

...People vote for Boris because he's a bumbling idiot posh toff....

I think he gets solid support from a media sector dominated by Rupert Murdoch, and were seeing a similar corrosive influence in Australia. Murdoch seems to be able to get any PM sacked and has a significant say in the outcome of most elections.

Our friends in the US point out the Democrats have enjoyed a similar unhealthy dominance in the media until the rise of Murdoch there: while he may have helped square the ledger he has lowered the tone even further (and US journalism like ours was never a particularly clean game).

That's a pretty corrupt system if one or both parties relies on media manipulation to get elected.