Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

[antaeus]

If you're expecting me to believe those Chinese numbers me, and the majority of the free world are gonna laugh. I'm sure China did better though, but at the same time I don't really care. It's an authoritarian state that's still making its best efforts to cosplay Nazi Germany, so forgive me if I completely dismiss China as any benchmark worth talking about.

Why is it hard to believe a state that can make/force it's people to behave in the best possible way to respond to a pandemic might have brought the pandemic under control? It seems to me that being rather authoritarian is exactly how governments keep infection rates low. It seems fairly straight forward logic to me that if you literally force people to stay at home, they don't get infected. If you do it at gunpoint (or social credit point) then they really listen to you when you tell them to stay at home.

By all means, be a China sceptic. I certainly disagree with virtually everything the state stands for. But at least try to not look like you're not just parroting your favourite political rubbish. What you're giving us here is just whataboutery. "Amurica screwed up, but at least China screwed up worse". No. Actually they didn't. And the reason why is tied to why their government is so flawed ironically.

[Exarch]

I don't have an issue with admitting that many countries dealt with the pandemic, much better than United States but,

If you're expecting me to believe those Chinese numbers me, and the majority of the free world are gonna laugh. I'm sure China did better though, but at the same time I don't really care. It's an authoritarian state that's still making its best efforts to cosplay Nazi Germany, so forgive me if I completely dismiss China as any benchmark worth talking about.

The old canard of "China lied, people died" has been debunked a billion times over and appears only in the fevered imaginations of anti China politicians and people, rather than reality or the scientists or doctors in the US, WHO etc.



Disturbingly, many democratic governments like the US and India are trying to instigate war against China to distract from their own incompetence in handling the pandemic and the subsequent economic depression that follows.

[caratacus]

I think this lady deserves respect, to stand up and say what she thinks because of the death of her father. Pity we live in a world of so many sheeple!! Even if her legal challenge to the Chinese authorities will almost certainly go nowhere. The fact that she is prepared to take such a stand and publicly denounce the authorities no matter what the consequences to herself, is deserving of respect. She evidently loved her father very deeply. No official anywhere, who is negligent in tackling the spread of Covid 19, enabling it to leak from a secure unit through incompetance or even having a hand in developing it for whatever purpose, should feel that their actions will never eventually be exposed. But this can only begin if people challenge what they are told no matter where you are living.

Coronavirus: This Wuhan woman is suing China - and wants an apology after her father died of COVID-19
Zhao Lei's father died of coronavirus in Wuhan before he could get medical help
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...id-19-12058695

[Ludicus]

No.

Nope. You said,

To put it into perspective, Pelosi was the one who claimed that coronavirus isn't that bad and people shouldn't be afraid to join mass events, in February.

False.
Pelosi did visit Chinatown in late February in an effort to encourage people to go there to eat and shop. But she did not support parades or parties.
--
Trump, in late January, "We have it totally under control. It’s going to be just fine"
On Feb 26, Trump, the covi-idiot, claimed that there could only be one or two people affected. I quote. "We're going to be pretty soon at only five people.And we could be at just one or two people over the next short period of time"

On 27 Feb - "It's going to disappear"

On March 7,"I'm not concerned at all", he said, standing near Bolsonaro, his brother in arms,



-------
Last May,

" cases are coming way down"

June 17,in Tulsa, Oklahoma
"The pandemic is fading away"



July 14,
"99% of cases are totally harmless"

etc ad nausea.

To conclude, Trump's far right acolytes ( that includes you) lack moral authority to criticize the Democratic Party. Let's hear Pence justification for encouraging people to gather in unsafe crowds in Trump's rallies,
"The right to peacefully assemble is enshrined in the First Amendment of the Constitution".

--------

Meanwhile, the US refuses to join the global cooperative effort to develop a COVID-19 vaccine

Indeed. In fact, +- 175 countries are setting up the COVAX.Under Trump, America is a rogue state.

[Love Mountain]

Why is it hard to believe a state that can make/force it's people to behave in the best possible way to respond to a pandemic might have brought the pandemic under control? It seems to me that being rather authoritarian is exactly how governments keep infection rates low. It seems fairly straight forward logic to me that if you literally force people to stay at home, they don't get infected. If you do it at gunpoint (or social credit point) then they really listen to you when you tell them to stay at home.

Because China routinely lies about everything. I don't necessarily have an issue with the general trends, but I don't trust Chinese reporting on things that would especially embarrass them, like economic growth and the death toll.

By all means, be a China sceptic. I certainly disagree with virtually everything the state stands for. But at least try to not look like you're not just parroting your favourite political rubbish. What you're giving us here is just whataboutery. "Amurica screwed up, but at least China screwed up worse". No. Actually they didn't. And the reason why is tied to why their government is so flawed ironically.

Not at all, I have no issue with accepting the premise that China did a better job handling this. It's hard to mess up worse than America. I just don't believe that they handled it nearly as well as they claimed and there is no point in using China as a comparison for how to deal with the pandemic (or anything, really). Aside from their atrocious human rights record, there are just many more countries that are far more transparent, and have plenty to add to the discussion.

[Cyclops]

...

Indeed. In fact, +- 175 countries are setting up the COVAX.Under Trump, America is a rogue state.

I looked up the CDC website, since April they have been having at least several thousand excess deaths a week (some weeks it is tens of thousands) and that has to be COVID. Essentially the US is having repeated 9/11 death tolls weekly and the President is at best downplaying it, at worst making it worse. Sadly the President is undermining the CDC too. Be good if the idiots in Washington could stop playing politics and, I dunno, lead? Hate to see our ally in such a mess.

[PointOfViewGun]

Aren't we wishing Trump treated COVID19 as if it was a Muslim terrorist?

[Heathen Hammer]

One can predict that after election, we'll probably see a complete change in the testing strategy and change in how new cases are estimated as a result.
Also here's a pretty good (satirical) video on death statistics and how they are reported in USA:

[Exarch]

Indeed. In fact, +- 175 countries are setting up the COVAX.Under Trump, America is a rogue state.

I actually expect this government to try and start a war in october to stay in power

[Love Mountain]

I actually expect this government to try and start a war in october to stay in power

He's not going to start a war. He'll simply look for any excuse, no matter how flimsy, and refuse to leave the White House. There will be no transition, there will have to be a forced eviction.

[antaeus]

One can predict that after election, we'll probably see a complete change in the testing strategy and change in how new cases are estimated as a result.
Also here's a pretty good (satirical) video on death statistics and how they are reported in USA:

Ahhh the HIV doesn't kill you so it's safe to catch approach. My favourite.

[Cope]

Why is it hard to believe a state that can make/force it's people to behave in the best possible way to respond to a pandemic might have brought the pandemic under control? It seems to me that being rather authoritarian is exactly how governments keep infection rates low.

The CCP facilitated the crisis in the first place by trying to cover it up; authoritarianism is a double edged sword.

Jude Blanchette, a China analyst at CSIS, a Washington-based think-tank, also sees a political dimension behind the health emergency. “There’s a natural inclination for party officials at all levels to bury negative information and censor dissenting views irrespective of who’s in charge in Beijing,” says Mr Blanchette. “But under Xi Jinping, the inclination to suppress has become endemic and, in this case, contributed to a prolonged period of inaction that allowed the virus to spread.”

Coronavirus: the cost of China’s public health cover-up, Financial Times, Feb 6th.

It seems fairly straight forward logic to me that if you literally force people to stay at home, they don't get infected. If you do it at gunpoint (or social credit point) then they really listen to you when you tell them to stay at home.

Isolating the healthy is unsustainable; lockdowns are only acceptable only as a means of preventing health services from being overwhelmed. Equally, human beings are antifragile and will either need to achieve herd immunity or be vaccinated.

By all means, be a China sceptic. I certainly disagree with virtually everything the state stands for. But at least try to not look like you're not just parroting your favourite political rubbish. What you're giving us here is just whataboutery. "Amurica screwed up, but at least China screwed up worse". No. Actually they didn't. And the reason why is tied to why their government is so flawed ironically.

International comparisons are largely fruitless due to the extensive number of variables (many of which we do not know or fully understand) which effect infection rates and death tolls. Additional difficulties are presented by variances in recording methodologies, differences in priorities and the fact that the situation is still ongoing. Even if we knew what China's excess mortality rate was, comparing it to the death toll in the US (itself a matter of contention) wouldn't provide any indication of whether either country had "screwed up".

Prof Whitty said it was wrong to judge mortality statistics based on the raw data without adjusting for population demographics.

"We must learn lessons at the right time," he said. "But what we don't do, frankly, is to do that in the middle of something.

"We are nowhere near the end of this epidemic. We are through, and it is very good to say we are through, the first phase of this – but there is a very long way to run for every country in the world on this.

"Let's not go charging in to who's won and who's lost at this point and try to take it quite carefully, learning lessons from one another as we go along. Every country measures its Covid cases in a slightly different way, so comparing them to one another is largely a fruitless exercise."

UK 'nowhere near' end of coronavirus epidemic, chief medical officer warns, Telegraph, April 30th.

[Exarch]

The CCP facilitated the crisis in the first place by trying to cover it up; authoritarianism is a double edged sword.

This is an eg of a lie repeated ad nauseam becoming accepted as truth.

Local government officials in Wuhan tried to cover it up and were disciplined and fired; the Central Government in Beijing was extremely open about COVID-19, even invited the WHO when they discovered it was a novel coronavirus, and sequenced and shared the genome of the virus with the world. As it is, we have yet to see anyone in the democratic and white country of the US, get fired or prosecuted for their criminal negligence in handling COVID-19.

In actuality, the democratic United States has actually lied about its COVID numbers and the Trump admin. actually delegated VP Pence to control the messaging of COVID-19 and to misrepresent and distort its own COVID cases.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...avirus/608647/

[B. W.]

This is an eg of a lie repeated ad nauseam becoming accepted as truth.

Local government officials in Wuhan tried to cover it up and were disciplined and fired; the Central Government in Beijing was extremely open about COVID-19, even invited the WHO when they discovered it was a novel coronavirus, and sequenced and shared the genome of the virus with the world. As it is, we have yet to see anyone in the democratic and white country of the US, get fired or prosecuted for their criminal negligence in handling COVID-19.

In actuality, the democratic United States has actually lied about its COVID numbers and the Trump admin. actually delegated VP Pence to control the messaging of COVID-19 and to misrepresent and distort its own COVID cases.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...avirus/608647/

Wow! The Atlantic strikes again. It's majority owned by a Democrat activist and in reality just another wing of the DNC propaganda division:

https://www.americanthinker.com/arti...e_scandal.html

[irontaino]

Cries about perceived Democrat bias in The Atlantic...then proceeds to cite Republican publication American Thinker.

[Heathen Hammer]

Ahhh the HIV doesn't kill you so it's safe to catch approach. My favourite.

Um, that's not what it said, it merely referenced the statistical fact that overwhelming majority of people who died from the China virus were either super-old or had underlying health conditions. Not comparable to HIV, which can develop into AIDS and kill a healthy able-bodied person.

[B. W.]

Nope. You said,

False.
Pelosi did visit Chinatown in late February in an effort to encourage people to go there to eat and shop. But she did not support parades or parties.
--
Trump, in late January, "We have it totally under control. It’s going to be just fine"
On Feb 26, Trump, the covi-idiot, claimed that there could only be one or two people affected. I quote. "We're going to be pretty soon at only five people.And we could be at just one or two people over the next short period of time"

On 27 Feb - "It's going to disappear"

On March 7,"I'm not concerned at all", he said, standing near Bolsonaro, his brother in arms,



-------
Last May,

" cases are coming way down"

June 17,in Tulsa, Oklahoma
"The pandemic is fading away"



July 14,
"99% of cases are totally harmless"

etc ad nausea.

To conclude, Trump's far right acolytes ( that includes you) lack moral authority to criticize the Democratic Party. Let's hear Pence justification for encouraging people to gather in unsafe crowds in Trump's rallies,
"The right to peacefully assemble is enshrined in the First Amendment of the Constitution".

--------

Indeed. In fact, +- 175 countries are setting up the COVAX.Under Trump, America is a rogue state.

You're being a little selective there. After trump's China ban they called him a racist. At the same time Barbot in New York city was urging people to go to a parade. Just two weeks later New York had trucks full of dead bodies lining their streets.

https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/03/...re-5-examples/

Cries about perceived Democrat bias in The Atlantic...then proceeds to cite Republican publication American Thinker.

AT didn't contribute $500,000 to Trump campaign. Just sayn'.

[antaeus]

Um, that's not what it said, it merely referenced the statistical fact that overwhelming majority of people who died from the China virus were either super-old or had underlying health conditions. Not comparable to HIV, which can develop into AIDS and kill a healthy able-bodied person.

I keep pointing back to the Economist chart that shows the average amount of years of life lost to covid based on co-morbidity. And this is without any account taken for the long term chronic conditions that Covid is causing in many of those who don't die. We've spent literally half of this thread debating this point over and over. You haven't brought anything new. You're just bringing points that have been debated over and over. Maybe do a thread search for "Stario" - who is the prime "Covid doesn't kill people" debater. The "Covid doesn't kill people, their co-morbidity does" debate has been covered to death. Almost literally.

[Heathen Hammer]

I keep pointing back to the Economist chart that shows the average amount of years of life lost to covid based on co-morbidity. And this is without any account taken for the long term chronic conditions that Covid is causing in many of those who don't die. We've spent literally half of this thread debating this point over and over. You haven't brought anything new. You're just bringing points that have been debated over and over. Maybe do a thread search for "Stario" - who is the prime "Covid doesn't kill people" debater. The "Covid doesn't kill people, their co-morbidity does" debate has been covered to death. Almost literally.

You were the one who compared it to AIDS. As I pointed out, it is different. A healthy person can get HIV, then AIDS, then die. With majority of Chinese virus deaths being linked to either very old age or underlying conditions, as pointed out in the video, it is a very different thing.

[antaeus]

You were the one who compared it to AIDS. As I pointed out, it is different. A healthy person can get HIV, then AIDS, then die. With majority of Chinese virus deaths being linked to either very old age or underlying conditions, as pointed out in the video, it is a very different thing.

It's an analogy. "A comparison between things that have similar features, often used to help explain a principle or idea"

In this case, your youtube was downplaying the death rate of Covid, but implying that it was mostly other comorbidity killing people. My analogy was HIV, because HIV doesn't kill people, and neither does AIDs most of the time, rather the disease allows for opportunistic infections to kill you. Yet in spite of the fact that most people who die of an AIDS related infection, we don't say they die of a staph infection or a severe flu. We say they died of an AIDs related illness. Thus the analogy reveals itself. No doubt you'll still grump about how it is irrelevant because nobody gives concessions on the internet, but there you have it. I've over explained it for you.