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Thread: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

  1. #1681
    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    If Trump had the guts he'd recognize Taiwan instead of cutting funds to WHO. All he's doing is labeling WHO as the scapegoat for his misdoings. In reality, people who support defunding WHO can not tell what would be different if WHO acted more openly.
    Democrat President Jimmy Carter pulled state recognition from "Taiwan" (The Republic of China) and gave it to mainland China giving legitimacy to the CCP. So I guess you're saying that the whole problem we have now was brought on by a Democrat president and now a Republican president has to fix it.

    I guess you're unaware that while the pandemic was spreading around the world, WHO was telling people there was nothing to worry about.

  2. #1682

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    Democrat President Jimmy Carter pulled state recognition from "Taiwan" (The Republic of China) and gave it to mainland China giving legitimacy to the CCP. So I guess you're saying that the whole problem we have now was brought on by a Democrat president and now a Republican president has to fix it.
    Sure. 4 Republican presidents after and nothing have been done so far. Your petty attempt doesn't take away Trump's responsibility.


    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    I guess you're unaware that while the pandemic was spreading around the world, WHO was telling people there was nothing to worry about.
    They weren't really doing that. By the time it was a pandemic we already knew how serious it was. It didn't make a difference. Why still blame WHO?
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  3. #1683
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Sure. 4 Republican presidents after and nothing have been done so far. Your petty attempt doesn't take away Trump's responsibility.




    They weren't really doing that. By the time it was a pandemic we already knew how serious it was. It didn't make a difference. Why still blame WHO?
    Too add to this, once it was apparent how serious it was, the WHO changed their positions. Trump simply doubled down.
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  4. #1684
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Sure. 4 Republican presidents after and nothing have been done so far. Your petty attempt doesn't take away Trump's responsibility.




    They weren't really doing that. By the time it was a pandemic we already knew how serious it was. It didn't make a difference. Why still blame WHO?
    Hah hah hah! Try 3 Republican and 2 Democrats.

    Go tell the Italians. They were told by WHO there was no problem. You must have missed a lot of news if you aren't aware of that.

  5. #1685

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    Hah hah hah! Try 3 Republican and 2 Democrats.

    Go tell the Italians. They were told by WHO there was no problem. You must have missed a lot of news if you aren't aware of that.
    Yup, and today, its Trump's responsibility. By the time first COVID19 case was found in Italy there were already thousands of cases in China with hundreds dead. When was Italy told by WHO that there was no problem?
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  6. #1686
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Yup, and today, its Trump's responsibility. By the time first COVID19 case was found in Italy there were already thousands of cases in China with hundreds dead. When was Italy told by WHO that there was no problem?
    WHO did not declare a pandemic until March 11. By then Italy was in a hopeless situation.

  7. #1687

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Yup, and today, its Trump's responsibility. By the time first COVID19 case was found in Italy there were already thousands of cases in China with hundreds dead. When was Italy told by WHO that there was no problem?
    Imagine shilling for Chyna because Orange Man Bad. lol

  8. #1688

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    WHO did not declare a pandemic until March 11. By then Italy was in a hopeless situation.
    Declaration of a pandemic is dependent on spread of the disease, not its deadliness. By not declaring it as a pandemic before didn't mean that WHO called it a no problem. You specifically claimed that Italy was told by WHO that there was no problem.

    From January 29th:
    Coronavirus: Whole world 'must take action', warns WHO
    The "whole world needs to be on alert" to fight the coronavirus, the head of the World Health Organization's Health Emergencies Programme has said.
    At this time there was no known case in Italy. You might wanna get your facts right.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Imagine shilling for Chyna because Orange Man Bad. lol
    It's more of a case of inability to accept any criticism against Trump. It's a convenient way to shoot down any and all criticism but it accomplishes nothing. It merely presents your position as childish.
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  9. #1689
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Declaration of a pandemic is dependent on spread of the disease, not its deadliness. By not declaring it as a pandemic before didn't mean that WHO called it a no problem. You specifically claimed that Italy was told by WHO that there was no problem.

    From January 29th:
    Coronavirus: Whole world 'must take action', warns WHO


    At this time there was no known case in Italy. You might wanna get your facts right.
    You'll have to do better than that. In fact, that's laughable. The virus surpassed the WHO's definition of a pandemic and it still refused to label it a pandemic. They were bowing down to the wishes of their Chinese CCP masters. By the time WHO issued a notice of pandemic it was too late for Italy.

    Telling someone to be on alert is the equivalent of saying, "watch out for cars when you cross the road".

  10. #1690

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    You'll have to do better than that. In fact, that's laughable. The virus surpassed the WHO's definition of a pandemic and it still refused to label it a pandemic. They were bowing down to the wishes of their Chinese CCP masters. By the time WHO issued a notice of pandemic it was too late for Italy.

    Telling someone to be on alert is the equivalent of saying, "watch out for cars when you cross the road".
    The severity of the virus is not dependent on pandemic classification. Whether its labeled as a pandemic or not doesn't change where and how the virus is reported. Not declaring it as a pandemic at the time to your liking doesn't mean the virus is disregarded. You claimed that WHO told Italy that there was no problem or that they were telling people not to worry. This turned out to be a petty lie. It's really not me who needs to do better. Doubling down on your already failed claim will not accomplish anything. Why you'd lie to make such a case is beyond me.
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  11. #1691
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The severity of the virus is not dependent on pandemic classification. Whether its labeled as a pandemic or not doesn't change where and how the virus is reported. Not declaring it as a pandemic at the time to your liking doesn't mean the virus is disregarded. You claimed that WHO told Italy that there was no problem or that they were telling people not to worry. This turned out to be a petty lie. It's really not me who needs to do better. Doubling down on your already failed claim will not accomplish anything. Why you'd lie to make such a case is beyond me.
    When Trump imposed the China travel ban the Who criticized him for it. That was in January. The WHO at the time advised there was no problem with travelers from China. Italy had a huge influx of Chinese travelers which seeded the virus in their country.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; June 02, 2020 at 09:41 AM. Reason: Personal.

  12. #1692

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    When Trump imposed the China travel ban the Who criticized him for it. That was in January. The WHO at the time advised there was no problem with travelers from China. Italy had a huge influx of Chinese travelers which seeded the virus in their country.
    Sigh... You keep changing your goal post. You're jumping from your earlier point on March 11th to January 31st. For starters, Trump didn't impose a ban on travel from China. He simply imposed restrictions that were not applied to citizens and residents of USA. About 40 thousand people traveled to USA from China after Trump enacted his restrictions. At no point did WHO advised that there was no problem with travelers from China. Why are you lying about WHO's conduct?
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; June 02, 2020 at 09:41 AM. Reason: Continuity.
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  13. #1693
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Sigh... You keep changing your goal post. You're jumping from your earlier point on March 11th to January 31st. For starters, Trump didn't impose a ban on travel from China. He simply imposed restrictions that were not applied to citizens and residents of USA. About 40 thousand people traveled to USA from China after Trump enacted his restrictions. At no point did WHO advised that there was no problem with travelers from China. Why are you lying about WHO's conduct?
    Thanks for posting articles that confirm what I've been saying.

  14. #1694

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    It's more of a case of inability to accept any criticism against Trump. It's a convenient way to shoot down any and all criticism but it accomplishes nothing. It merely presents your position as childish.
    If that's what you think then you've not been paying attention.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; June 02, 2020 at 09:38 AM. Reason: Personal.

  15. #1695

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    Thanks for posting articles that confirm what I've been saying.
    Except they're not confirming what you say. There is a reason why you are unable to come up with substantiated arguments.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    If that's what you think then you've not been paying attention.
    You're free to point what I'm not paying attention.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; June 02, 2020 at 09:39 AM. Reason: Continuity.
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  16. #1696

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Well, there's this…

    June 1 (UPI) -- As the Democratic Republic of the Congo neared declaring an Ebola outbreak in its eastern provinces over, health officials on Monday announced a new cluster has emerged on the other side of the African nation.
    It is unclear how the outbreak began in the western port city of Mbandaka, but at least five people have died from the disease, officials said.

    The World Health Organization first reported four deaths to the virus followed by UNICEF stating in a release that five people, including a 15-year-old girl, had died between May 18 and Sunday when health officials confirmed they were Ebola-related fatalities.

    The announcement came as Congolese health officials battle the coronavirus pandemic, which has nearly reached 3,200 confirmed cases, including 72 deaths in the country, and the world's largest measles outbreak at more than 369,500 infections and nearly 6,800 deaths since 2019 when the outbreak began.

    "This outbreak is a reminder that COVID-19 is not the only health threat people face," WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said in a statement. "Although much of our attention is on the pandemic, WHO is continuing to monitor and respond to the many other health emergencies."

    It is the 11th outbreak of Ebola in the country since it first emerged in 1976, and occurred as its 10th outbreak in the northeastern provinces of North Kivu, South Kivu and Ituri was in its final phase.
    Declared on Aug. 1, 2018, the outbreak has since grown to more than 3,460 total cases, resulting in 2,280 deaths. The WHO neared declaring the roughly two-year outbreak over when a new case was confirmed on April 10. Then on May 14, the Ministry of Health began a 42-day countdown to the declaration of the outbreak's end.

    However, WHO said new outbreaks are expected in the African nation given the existence of the virus living in an animal reservoir in several parts of the country.

    "The new Ebola outbreak in Mbandaka, DRC, represents a challenge, but it's one we are ready to tackle," Dr. Matshidiso Moeti, WHO regional director for Africa, said in a tweet. "...With each experience, we respond faster & more effectively."
    WHO said it has health officials on the ground in Mbandaka as part of its capacity built since the start of the 2018 outbreak and a further 25 people are expected to arrive Tuesday. UNICEF said it will deploy 36 staff by Tuesday to work with relevant partners and government agencies to assist those infected and to raise awareness of communities to good hygiene and behavioral practices to prevent the virus' spread.

    The country's ninth Ebola outbreak occurred between May 8 and July 24, 2018, in Mbandaka, resulting in 54 cases, among whom 33 people died.

    https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...5701591062656/
    The last time there was a major outbreak, it reached the United States. I hope President Trump is up to the challenge if that happens again. Reflexively pulling out and defunding the very organization that is on the front line battling this disease to prevent just that does not inspire confidence though.
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  17. #1697
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Trump is right. The WHO has proven itself to be absolutely useless. If the WHO had done its job there world would not have suffered so greatly. Is better to spend the money where it might do some good. WHO went along with the Chinese CCP when it downplayed the serious nature of the threat:

    https://www.nationalreview.com/corne...cy-in-january/

  18. #1698

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    Trump is right. The WHO has proven itself to be absolutely useless. If the WHO had done its job there world would not have suffered so greatly. Is better to spend the money where it might do some good. WHO went along with the Chinese CCP when it downplayed the serious nature of the threat:

    https://www.nationalreview.com/corne...cy-in-january/
    If we could be assured of a better alternative to the WHO, your point might perhaps then be sustained. However, as we are speaking of President Trump, no such alternative is in prospect. He has consistently shown himself to be feckless, impulsive, and short-sighted to the point of blindness when enacting public policy. It is to gaze through the eyes of faith for one to repose any confidence in the Trump administration. To wit, behold:

    The Trump administration proposed Monday a fiscal year 2021 budget that includes some long- and short-term cuts to several healthcare agencies, including the National Institutes of Health, the CDC, Medicare, and Medicaid. […]
    Specifically, the administration would reduce NIH's budget by nearly $3 billion from its 2020 allocation, and also zeroes out the budget for the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ). Ironically, the cut came just days after HHS Secretary Alex Azar wished AHRQ, which started in 1999, a happy 20th anniversary in a "State of the Department" address. […]
    The proposed budget also cut the CDC's discretionary budget authority by $1.3 billion in fiscal 2021 compared with fiscal 2020 -- a 19% cut -- including $25 million from public health preparedness and response outlays. Kahn particularly decried the proposed cuts to public health agencies, noting that "The spread of the coronavirus is evidence that we need a strong permanent defense system to stop threats before they start and contain them when they do." […]
    https://www.medpagetoday.com/publich...thpolicy/84813
    "They took back all the airports." - President Donald J. Trump, July 4, 2019
    "You're a lying dog-faced pony soldier." - former Vice President Joseph R. Biden, Jr., February 9, 2020


  19. #1699
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by skh1 View Post
    If we could be assured of a better alternative to the WHO, your point might perhaps then be sustained. However, as we are speaking of President Trump, no such alternative is in prospect. He has consistently shown himself to be feckless, impulsive, and short-sighted to the point of blindness when enacting public policy. It is to gaze through the eyes of faith for one to repose any confidence in the Trump administration. To wit, behold:
    After spending over two months in quarantine because WHO failed in its primary duty I disagree.

    Trump has been doing as much as possible everything he campaigned on. This in spite of a 3 year hoax investigation and a subsequent fraudulent impeachment. One must wonder what he could have accomplished if so much of his time wasn't taken up fighting against false accusations by Democrats in the House.

  20. #1700

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    On May 6th, I posted the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    One place it probably didn't originate from is a lab in China. As Dr. Fauci and others have pointed out the idea falls apart on any reasonable examination.
    Fauci has reasons to downplay the likelihood of this possibility. The lab in Wuhan was involved in gain of function research on bat coronaviruses. That is they were deliberately manipulating bat coronavirues in order to make them more transmissible, for the purpose of predicting what might occur naturally in order to prepare for it. This is controversial because of the potential of actually causing a pandemic if the pathogen accidentally gets out.

    This is from an article Fauci wrote on the topic in 2012:

    Scientists working in this field might say—as indeed I have said—that the benefits of such experiments and the resulting knowledge outweigh the risks. It is more likely that a pandemic would occur in nature, and the need to stay ahead of such a threat is a primary reason for performing an experiment that might appear to be risky. However, we must respect that there are genuine and legitimate concerns about this type of research, both domestically and globally. We cannot expect those who have these concerns to simply take us, the scientific community, at our word that the benefits of this work outweigh the risks, nor can we ignore their calls for greater transparency, their concerns about conflicts of interest, and their efforts to engage in a dialog about whether these experiments should have been performed in the first place. Those of us in the scientific community who believe in the merits of this work have the responsibility to address these concerns thoughtfully and respectfully.
    Nevertheless, the organization Fauci heads happened to fund this project which just so happened to involve gain of function research on bat coronaviruses in collaboration with a certain Chinese lab in Wuhan.
    At the time, I was aware of two other issues that made made me suspicious. The first is a peculiarity in the genetic code of the virus, detailed here: Lab-Made? SARS-CoV-2 Genealogy Through the Lens of Gain-of-Function Research. Anyone can post on that site, and as far as I know, that author has no particular qualifications, but being somewhat knowledgeable on the topic, I fact-checked it myself, and found the argument convincing. The second issue I was aware of, was that all the Western experts speaking up about how unlikely it was that the virus was lab made, just so happened to be affiliated with gain of function research in that Wuhan lab. Curiously, they were focusing on the lack of evidence for gene editing, as if they were completely unaware (despite being experts) that the reproductive rate of viruses makes them quite amenable to old school forms of genetic engineering (think selective breeding, but without the breeding part). Not wanting to have to go to the effort to defend the plausibility of this (supposedly) extraordinary claim, I held off expressing my thoughts further.

    Now that some credentialed experts have spoken up, I can leave it to them:

    Leading immunologists and geneticists have told The Daily Telegraph there are two unusual aspects of COVID-19 that raise the possibility it was man-made rather than a naturally-occurring virus.

    The first is that the virus binds to human ACE2 receptor cells more strongly than it does to any other animal, including bats.

    The second is that it has a “furin cleavage site” that its closest genetic bat-coronavirus relative, RaTG-13, does not have.

    This site makes it significantly more infectious.

    Israeli geneticist, Dr Ronen Shemesh, who is working on treatment for COVID-19, said in his opinion the virus was more likely created in a laboratory than evolved naturally in nature.

    “There are many reasons to believe that the COVID-19 generating SARS-CoV-2 was generated in a lab. Most probably by methods of genetic engineering,” he said.

    “I believe that this is the only way an insertion like the FURIN protease cleavage site could have been introduced directly at the right place and become effective.”

    Dr Shemesh points to the insertion of a Furin site as the most unusual aspect of COVID-19.

    “I believe that the most important issue about the differences between ALL coronavirus types is the insertion of a Fufin protease cleavage site at the Spike protein of SARS-CoV-2,” he said.

    “Such an insertion is very rare in evolution, the addition of such 4 Amino acids alone in the course of only 20 years is very unlikely.”

    Dr Shemesh, who has a PhD in Genetics and Molecular Biology from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, and over 21 years of experience in the field of drug discovery and development, said it is even “more unlikely” that this insertion happened in exactly the right place of the cleavage site of the spike protein - which is where it would need to occur to make the virus more infectious.

    “What makes it even more suspicious is that fact that this insertion not only occurred on the right place and in the right time, but also turned the cleavage site from an Serine protease cleavage site to a FURIN cleavage site,” he said.

    “This protein cleaving protein is highly promiscuous, it’s found in many human tissues and cell types and is involved in many OTHER virus types activation and infection mechanisms (it is involved in HIV, Herpes, Ebola and Dengue virus mechanisms).

    “If I was trying to engineer a virus strain with a higher affinity and infective potential to humans, I would do exactly that: I would add a Furin Cleavage site directly at the original less effective and more cell specific cleavage site.”

    La Trobe University Chemistry and Physics Professor David Winkler says there are several possibilities for the source of COVID-19 and you cannot rule out the laboratory as one option.

    “On the basis of the calculations we’ve done, you can’t exclude that it’s been processed through human cells in a biosecurity lab - but it’s certainly not the only explanation,” he said.

    Flinders University Professor Nikolai Petrovsky says COVID-19 is “exquisitely adapted to infect humans”.

    “I’m certainly very much in favour of a scientific investigation. Its only objective should be to get to the bottom of how did this pandemic happen and how do we prevent a future pandemic.”

    Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard and University of British Columbia biologist, Alina Chan, said there was little evidence to definitively say where COVID-19 originated.

    Dr Chan said there is no current evidence to show that the coronavirus originated in the Wuhan wet market.

    “If intermediate animal hosts were present at the market, no evidence remains in the genetic samples available,” she said.

    Leading immunologists and geneticists have told The Daily Telegraph there are two unusual aspects of COVID-19 that raise the possibility it was man-made rather than a naturally-occurring virus.

    “There is no publicly available genetic evidence of cross-species transmission at the Huanan seafood market. But at the same time we cannot rule out the Huanan seafood market because we have not been able to analyse other data, eg, animal samples, from the market.”

    She said human adaptation in nature and in a laboratory is possible.

    “Did SARS-CoV-2 transmit across species into humans and circulate undetected for months prior to late 2019 while accumulating adaptive mutations?” she said.

    “Or was SARS-CoV-2 already well adapted for humans while in bats or an intermediate species?

    “More importantly, does this pool of human-adapted progenitor viruses still exist in animal populations? Even the possibility that a non-genetically-engineered precursor could have adapted to humans while being studied in a laboratory should be considered, regardless of how likely or unlikely.”
    I believe the wet market hypothesis was proposed in the first place because of how implausible it is that the two proposed host species would ever meet in the wild. One is endangered and the two don't live near each other and have no reason to interact. Likewise, and this is even more far-fetched, the two viral strains would have had to only exchange the portion the genetic code that just happened to make the virus highly contagious to humans. I note further that COVID-19 also appears to be highly infectious to members of the weasel family, which is also quite odd that it would be adapted that way, unless you consider the fact that ferrets are often used as animal hosts in such experiments.

    In my view, escape from the Wuhan lab is the more parsimonious explanation, but I likewise realize this is great fodder for sensationalist reporting. Why so few takers?
    Last edited by sumskilz; June 03, 2020 at 12:24 PM. Reason: fixed some minor errors
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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