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Thread: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

  1. #1621
    Gigantus's Avatar I am thinking more about running away now then I did as a kid, but by the time I put my teeth in, my glasses on and find my car keys I forget why I am going.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Found these two, still reading if there is any indication of the issue:

    https://www.jpmorgan.com/global/rese...navirus-impact
    https://www.jpmorgan.com/global/rese...across-markets

    From the 'across markets' article:
    U.S. Insurance COVID-19 Tracker: Let’s Bend the Curve

    Jimmy S. Bhullar, CFA

    Overall U.S. data has trended worse than in most countries, as U.S. cases and deaths seem to have peaked but remain stubbornly high and are not steadily declining. Conditions are getting less severe in New York, but are challenging in New Jersey, Massachusetts and Michigan. While they have stabilized, new cases and deaths remain elevated and the economic impact of the virus could be more severe than most assumptions if they do not steadily decline. The opening of several states presents a key risk and could drive an uptick in cases.
    Can't find anything that might support what the newspaper article claim.
    Last edited by Gigantus; May 22, 2020 at 09:13 AM.




  2. #1622

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  3. #1623
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post

    It's just that people tend not to spend as much time caged together with mink as the mink themselves do.

    EDIT: Dutch farm worker contracted coronavirus from mink: agriculture minister
    In fact, in 2016, an H7N2 influenza outbreak in cats at a New York City animal shelter infected a veterinarian,
    Emerg Infect Dis. 2017 Dec; 23(12): 2046–2049.
    doi: 10.3201/eid2312.170798
    On December 19, 2016, the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene collected a respiratory specimen from a veterinarian experiencing influenza-like illness after exposure to sick domestic cats at an animal shelter in New York, NY, USA....Although human infections with LPAI A(H7N2) viruses have occurred previously, we know of no other reported instances of direct transmission from a cat to a human.
    --------
    Meanwhile... Coronavirus US live: Trump demands churches, synagogues and mosques reopen "right now
    ...and threatens to override governor's if they dont comply.
    Mosques, Trump? really? let's go back in time, CAIR Condemns Donald Trump's Statement on Closing U.S. mosques

    “I would do that, absolutely, I think it’s great,” said Trump. When pressed on whether he could close a mosque, given American laws protecting religious freedom, Trump said, “Well I don’t know,” and conceded, “I mean, I haven’t heard about the closing of the mosque. It depends, if the mosque is, you know, loaded for bear, I don’t know. You’re going to have to certainly look at it.”

    -----
    So, Trump is taking plaquenil to ward off covid.Psss...try Viagra....Why Viagra might work as a coronavirus treatment
    -----
    Antimalarials should not be given for treatment of Covid-19 other than in the context of a randomised trial.In fact, we really do not know if it works agsisnt Covid infection.But it doesn't work in Covid patients, Brazilian chloroquine study halted after high dose proved lethal in Covid patients. Published in the Journal of the American Medical Association Network Open

    Meanwhile, Bolsonaro claimed in a video that "hydroxychloroquine is working in all places", although that was subsequently removed by Facebook for breaching its misinformation guidelines.
    "Freedom is more important than life", Bolsonaro recently said, once again criticizing the social isolation measures. It occurred to me Millán-Astray's infamous statement: Viva la Muerte, Muera la inteligencia!/ Long live death! Death to intelligence!.

    He also says that "I am, in fact, the constitution". Trying to sound like a democrat, Bolsonaro ended up paraphrasing Louis XIV, " L'état, c'est moi" -" I'm the state".
    Olavo de Carvalho's pupil (Olavo de Carvalho - Wikipedia) Italo Marsili is forensic psychiatrist who believes the coronavirus pandemic can be resolved quickly by mass administering chloroquine to the population. A couple of days ago, Marsili flew to Brasília to interview for Minister of Health. He wants to be the next minister of health. And he has the support of the bolsonaristas. Here some pearls of wisdom dripping from his mouth,
    "A *** little virus. It's not lethal. Obviously people die. People die choking in an orgy night, you may not be aware of that. What are you afraid of?"
    "The only democracy that's ever worked was the Greek, in which no female vote was prescribed. It's noticeable that universal suffrage has led to a state governance crisis. It's very easy to persuade a woman to vote, just seduce her"
    "Only an American or German pope could unite temporal and spiritual power and lead the conservative bloc against communism, globalism and Islam"

    Great.
    Last edited by Ludicus; May 22, 2020 at 06:50 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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  4. #1624

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    Found these two, still reading if there is any indication of the issue:


    https://www.jpmorgan.com/global/rese...navirus-impact
    https://www.jpmorgan.com/global/rese...across-markets
    Yeah, not either of those.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    'Page not found'.

  5. #1625
    Gigantus's Avatar I am thinking more about running away now then I did as a kid, but by the time I put my teeth in, my glasses on and find my car keys I forget why I am going.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    'Page not found'.
    I managed to have a look at that document when Gaidin posted the link, all I saw in between the sea of graphs was a comment that the death\infection rate was declining in some states after reopening while in others it stayed steady or slightly increased. Not exactly reason for those headlines, but then it's a newsmedia's business to spin the growth rate of grass into a national spectacle, and a lawnmower man is never far.

    Should have saved the document, the wayback machine is no help here.

    This page of JP Morgan is down as well https://privatebank.jpmorgan.com/gl/en/insights/investing/eotm/coronavirus-research - https://privatebank.jpmorgan.com/gl/...virus-research
    Last edited by Gigantus; May 22, 2020 at 09:28 PM.




  6. #1626

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    In fact, we really do not know if it works agsisnt Covid infection.But it doesn't work in Covid patients, Brazilian chloroquine study halted after high dose proved lethal in Covid patients. Published in the Journal of the American Medical Association Network Open
    There's a fair bit more of the typical media misinformation in that article, but it's pretty clear that neither chloroquine nor hydroxychloroquine work for people who are already seriously ill.

    Regarding the Brazilian chloroquine study:

    Despite these discouraging findings, several other observations prevent concluding categorically that high-dose chloroquine was toxic and that the likely mechanism was arrhythmogenesis. First, Borba et al2 found no apparent association of the appearance of QTc interval prolongation and subsequent death. There was also no witnessed torsade de pointes, an arrhythmia that is characteristically induced by QTc interval prolongation. Second, all patients were also receiving azithromycin, and nearly all were receiving oseltamivir (for possible influenza), which can also prolong the QTc interval. Thus, one can only conclude from this trial that high-dose chloroquine (and by close association, hydroxychloroquine) in combination and azithromycin and possibly oseltamivir, is potentially associated with increased mortality among patients with severe, suspected COVID-19.
    I don't understand why they were using chloroquine which is more toxic than hydroxychloroquine, and I don't understand the rationale for why it's so often being combined with azithromycin. It doesn't look like the problem here was caused by QTc interval prolongation. As I said before, giving high doses to those already on the verge of death doesn't seem to amount to anything more than additional stress on their already severely weakened system, and in this case it was a cocktail of drugs, but contrary to the Guardian's claim, there was no evidence to conclude that chloroquine proved lethal.

    In my opinion, if hydroxychloroquine works, it's almost certainly because it's a zinc ionophore. This was something I thought long before it became a politicized topic, because of the in vitro evidence, summarized recently here:

    Several medications are under investigation for the treatment of COVID-19. Despite limited and conflicting data, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration authorized the emergency use of hydroxychloroquine for the treatment of COVID-19 with or without azithromycin. Chloroquine analogues are weak bases that concentrate within acidic endosomes and lysosomes. Once intracellular, chloroquine analogues become protonated and increase pH resulting in prevention of endosomal trafficking, dysfunctional cellular enzymes, and impaired protein synthesis[7]. This inhibits viral replication through interference with endosome-mediated viral entry or late transport of the enveloped virus. Further, this results in interference with the terminal glycosylation of ACE2 receptor expression which prevents SARS-CoV-2 receptor binding and spread of infection [8]. Hydroxychloroquine, a hydroxy-derivative of chloroquine, has also been proposed based on in vitro activity against SARS-CoV-2 with a three-fold higher cytotoxic potential compared to chloroquine [9]. However, clinical data in humans has yielded mixed results[10-12]. The anti-viral and anti-inflammatory effects of chloroquine have been suggested to account for its potential utility in preventing COVID-19-related pneumonia. Soon current studies will answer whether hydroxychloroquine is effective as monotherapy or in combination with azithromycin. In the case that hydroxychloroquine is found to be ineffective, it may still have a role to play when combined with zinc sulfate. Zinc inhibits RNA dependent RNA polymerase, and has been shown to do this in vitro against SARS-CoV[13]. However, it is difficult to generate substantial intracellular concentrations of zinc, therefore prophylactic administration of zinc alone may not play a role against SarCoV-2[14]. When combined with a zinc ionophore, such as chloroquine (hydroxychloroquine), cellular uptake is increased making it more likely to achieve suitably elevated intracellular concentrations[15]. This combination is already being tested as a prophylactic regimen in a randomized clinical trial.

    As New York became the epicenter of the pandemic, hospitals in the area quickly adopted investigational therapies, including the use of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin. Given this proposed synergistic effect of zinc with hydroxychloroquine, practices at NYULH changed and the addition of zinc sulfate 220 mg PO BID along with hydroxcychloroquine 400 mg once followed by 200 mg PO BID with azithromycin 500 mg once daily became part of the treatment approach for patients admitted to the hospital with COVID-19.
    That text being from Carlucci et al, the encouraging results of which I posted recently in the other thread:



    Again though, there was no positive affect for those who started the treatment already in ICU, whereas negative outcomes were reduced by about half for those who were given it beginning when they were in less severe condition. This is what I want to see a proper trial of (HCQ+zinc).
    Last edited by sumskilz; May 23, 2020 at 12:23 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  7. #1627
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Regarding the Brazilian chloroquine study:

    I don't understand why they were using chloroquine which is more toxic than hydroxychloroquine,and I don't understand the rationale for why it's so often being combined with azithromycin.
    Ñeither of us.
    Chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine, and azithromycin each carry the warning of QT prolongation and can be associated with an increased risk of cardiac death.Take your time to read,Medscape.What is the role of hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin in

    ....A Brazilian study comparing chloroquine high-dose (600 mg PO BID for 10 days) and low-dose (450 mg BID for 1 day, then 450 mg/day for 4 days) observed QT prolongation in 25% of patients in the high-dose group. All patients received other drugs (ie, azithromycin, oseltamivir) that may contribute to prolonged QT. [184]

    An increased 30-day risk of cardiovascular mortality, chest pain/angina, and heart failure was observed with the addition of azithromycin to hydroxychloroquine from an analysis of pooled data from Japan, Europe, and the United States. The analysis compared use of hydroxychloroquine, sulfamethoxazole, or the combinations of hydroxychloroquine plus amoxicillin or hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin. [185]

    For more information, see QT Prolongation with Potential COVID-19 Pharmacotherapies.
    ---
    But I'm very skeptical. From our University Hospital Centre, Lisbon.
    BMJ Journals, Annals of Rheumatic Diseases. - Published Online First: 13 May 2020.
    "No evidence so far on the protective effect of hydroxychloroquine to prevent COVID-19: response to the comment by Joob and Wiwanitkit"
    View Full Text
    http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/annrheumdis-2020-217665

    I quote, excerpts,
    "We read with interest the comment by Joob and Wiwanitkit1 on the letter published by Monti et al in the Annals of the Rheumatic Diseases (ARD).2 In it, the authors state that there are no reported cases of patients with systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE) with COVID-19 and suggest that this may be due to a protective effect of hydroxychloroquine, a mainstay treatment taken by most patients with SLE. A similar suggestion had already been made earlier this month in the ARD by colleagues from Italy,3 the first hardly-hit western country, and was reinforced by yet another recently published letter.4"

    "The scientific discussion on the potential validity of these findings—which were to be confirmed—was seized by some politicians who quickly transformed it into a matter of belief and conviction. Moreover, an additional problem was created in several countries, where a general run to antimalarials led to nationwide drug shortage and prevented patients with rheumatic diseases from accessing these critical drugs to control their disease."
    "The yearning for an effective treatment for COVID-19 should not deter the scientific community from critically evaluating available evidence. Rather, it should make it raise the bar even higher to avoid that possible spurious findings are used in the wrong way."

    In this regard, we would like to dispute both the statement and the suggestion by Joob and Wiwanitkit in their comment.1 Indeed, the authors comment on the letter by Monti et al, who studied a cohort of 320 patients with rheumatoid arthritis (RA) or spondyloarthritis, but did not have a single patient with SLE.2 Still, out of the eight patients who developed a clinical picture compatible with COVID-19, three were already on hydroxychloroquine, making it confusing to suggest a protective effect of this drug.
    Recently, the COVID-19 Global Rheumatology Alliance launched a worldwide register for patients with rheumatic diseases with severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection.7 In the initial report that was just published, 19 out of 110 patients had SLE, although no treatment/outcome details were provided specifically for these patients.8

    Additionally, we report two cases of patients with SLE under long-term treatment with hydroxychloroquine, who developed COVID-19 (table 1). Both were young patients, with controlled disease activity prior to the infection. Both had confirmed close contacts with subjects later diagnosed with COVID-19, developed mild disease and fully recovered.

    While these two cases do not provide any definite answer to the question of whether antimalarials can prevent COVID-19 or severe disease, they show that, indeed, patients with SLE can develop disease, even if on stable hydroxychloroquine therapy.

    The mild disease course should not be attributed to the concomitant antimalarial. Rather, it is likely related to other factors known to be associated with better outcomes, such as female sex and younger age"
    ----
    See table 1. And read the response from the authors,
    Correspondence response
    Response to: ‘Patients with lupus are not protected from COVID-19: a comment’ by Sawalha, ‘No evidence so far on the protective effect of hydroxycloroquin to prevent COVID-19: response to the Comment by Joob and Wiwanitkit’ by Romão et al and ‘SLE patien…
    Beuy Joob Viroj Wiwanitkit
    Annals of the Rheumatic Diseases 2020; - Published Online First: 13 May 2020. doi: 10.1136/annrheumdis-2020-217695

    I quote,
    "We hereby acknowledge contributions that COVID-19 does occur in patients with SLE"

    ...At present, the efficacy or lack of efficacy of hydroxychloroquine remains a speculation in the absence of trials, and although the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine still requires further scientific proof the drug has been widely used in the current COVID-19 outbreak situation.6 Further systematic evaluation on the benefits of this drug is required. Hydroxychloroquine is not recommended for use in the prevention of COVID-19 in healthy people. Our article did not recommend the drug for COVID-19 prevention.
    ...If hydroxychloroquine has a pharmacological effect against COVID-19, dosage of this drug that can effectively counteract the infection remains unknown".
    ------

    Edit,
    Observational Study of Hydroxychloroquine in Hospitalized Patients -The New England Journal of Medicine...

    Of 1446 consecutive patients, 70 patients were intubated, died, or discharged within 24 hours after presentation and were excluded from the analysis. Of the remaining 1376 patients, during a median follow-up of 22.5 days, 811 (58.9%) received hydroxychloroquine (600 mg twice on day 1, then 400 mg daily for a median of 5 days); 45.8% of the patients were treated within 24 hours after presentation to the emergency department, and 85.9% within 48 hours. Hydroxychloroquine-treated patients were more severely ill at baseline than those who did not receive hydroxychloroquine...

    ....Clinical guidance at our medical center has been updated to remove the suggestion that patients with Covid-19 be treated with hydroxychloroquine....The study results should not be taken to rule out either benefit or harm of hydroxychloroquine treatment, given the observational design and the 95% confidence interval, but the results do not support the use of hydroxychloroquine at present, outside randomized clinical trials testing its efficacy.
    ----
    ----
    India releases hydroxychloroquine stocks amid pressure from Trump
    US president called Modi and threatened ‘retaliation’ if country kept full export ban.
    ----
    Both Trump and Bolsonaro should start taking ivermectin. Ivermectin is FDA-approved for parasitic infections. The drug is available worldwide, due to its inclusion on the WHO model list of essential medicines, and has very few side effects . Antiviral Research
    Volume 178, June 2020, 104787 The FDA-approved drug ivermectin inhibits the replication of SARS-CoV- 2 in vitro

    There are various options. I recommend the shampoo for topical use on the hair and scalp only.
    -----
    Now seriously, Edit II,
    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    I want to see a proper trial of (HCQ+zinc).
    That's OK, why not? There is already a peer-reviewed article,

    Does zinc supplementation enhance the clinical efficacy of ...?

    From in vitro and some clinical studies, it is well known that zinc elicits activity against several viruses [14]. Indeed, it was demonstrated that zinc inhibits the activity of RNA dependent RNA polymerase (RdRp) of Hepatitis E virus [15]. It was further shown in vitro that zinc inhibited coronavirus RdRp activity and that zinc ionophores blocked coronavirus replication [16]. Despite the well-known antiviral effects of zinc and possible properties of CQ/HCQ as zinc ionophore, the combination of zinc with one of these established drugs to achieve additive or even synergistic antiviral effects ought to be still confirmed.
    Zinc is a general stimulant of antiviral immunity [14]. In the context of COVID-19 morbidity and mortality, zinc deficiency may be relevant for the outcome of patient populations with severe clinical courses of COVID-19 including elderly patients, patients with hypertension, diabetes, coronary heart disease, or chronic obstructive lung disease. In addition, hypertensive and cardiovascular disease patients are frequently treated with hydrochlorothiazide, angiotensin-converting-enzyme inhibitors, and angiotensin 2 receptor antagonists which can result in an increased urinary excretion of zinc with subsequent systemic zinc deficiency [17]. Zinc deficiency was also demonstrated in diabetic patients [18]. Decreased zinc plasma levels are even present in a large number of healthy elderly patients [19]. The NHANES III study demonstrated that 35%–45% of adults aged 60 years or older had zinc intakes below the estimated average requirement of 6.8 mg/day for elderly females and 9.4 mg/day for elderly males. 20%–25% of older adults still had inadequate zinc intakes even when intakes from both food and dietary supplements were considered [20]. It may be speculated that also younger adults or even infants and adolescents with present zinc deficiency could be at higher risk for severe courses of SARS-CoV-2 infections. Therefore, we hypothesize that effective zinc supplementation during treatment of COVID-19 with CQ and HCQ, which have zinc ionophore characteristics, may result in increased intracellular zinc levels in general and in lysosomes specifically. Higher intracellular zinc levels might result in a more efficient RdRp inhibition and consequently a more effective inhibition of intracellular SARS-CoV-2 replication, potentially improving clinical outcomes of COVID-19 patients treated with CQ or HCQ. Whether this accumulation and treatment effect may sufficiently occur in relevant pulmonary tissue of COVID-19 patients has to be confirmed.
    Who knows, but I'm skeptical...in a positive way?... well, it occurred to me that according the AREDS Report No. 35, regarding the Long-term Effects of Vitamins C and E, β-Carotene, and Zinc on Age-Related Macular Degeneration, mortality was reduced in participants assigned to zinc, especially death from circulatory diseases.
    Last edited by Ludicus; May 23, 2020 at 07:49 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  8. #1628
    Stario's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun
    That's fundamentally false as it assumes that more testing means more COVID19 deaths
    Actually quite the opposite. More testing should lower the CFR

  9. #1629

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    Actually quite the opposite. More testing should lower the CFR
    There is no effect on death per million people. Infidel144 gave numbers for per million people, not per how many cases there are. You need to pay attention to what you're responding to. You understand the difference?
    The Armenian Issue
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  10. #1630
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    HCQ, more evidence,

    Mehra MR, Desai SS, Ruschitzka F, Patel AN: Hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine with or without a macrolide for treatment of COVID-19: a multinational registry analysis. Lancet 2020, published: May 22. Full-text: https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(20)31180-6

    Interpretation. We were unable to confirm a benefit of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine, when used alone or with a macrolide, on in-hospital outcomes for COVID-19. Each of these drug regimens was associated with decreased in-hospital survival and an increased frequency of ventricular arrhythmias when used for treatment of COVID-19.
    Comment,
    Funck-Brentano C, Salem JE: Chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19: why might they be hazardous? Lancet 2020, published: May 22. Full-text: https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(20)31174-0
    Excerpts,
    In The Lancet, Mandeep Mehra and colleagues report the largest observational study published to date on the effects of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine, with or without a macrolide, in 96032 hospitalised patients (mean age 53·8 years, 46·3% women) who tested positive for severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2.
    ...Their results indicate an absence of benefit of 4-aminoquinoline-based treatments in this population and suggest that they could even be harmful.
    ... The study therefore does not suggest that the increased risk of death with 4-aminoquinolines was due to a proarrhythmic mechanism.
    Another hypothesis to explain the increased risk of death with 4-aminoquinolines is that their antiviral and immunomodulatory properties could worsen COVID-19 severity in some patients.
    Nevertheless, the increased incidence of ventricular arrhythmias is intriguing. Chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine, and azithromycin have sodium channel blocking properties that might contribute to proarrhythmia and heart failure in the context of myocardial injury and hypoxia present in COVID-19. This hypothesis remains to be tested.

    The findings from Mehra and colleagues’ study add to preliminary reports suggesting that regimens of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine, alone or with azithromycin, are not useful and could be harmful in hospitalised patients with COVID-19.
    -----
    Politics,

    VA gave hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19 to 1,300 veterans ...
    VA Secretary Robert Wilkie, in a letter and documents provided to Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.), said the department had prescribed hydroxychloroquine to about 1,300 coronavirus patients of more than 10,000 veterans treated for the coronavirus "and will continue to do so in accordance with Food and Drug Administration (FDA) guidelines."

    Wilkie, in a separate letter obtained by NBC News, said that the VA had made the drug available pursuant to FDA guidelines “because some of our Veterans and families are requesting the use of hydroxychloroquine as a COVID-19 treatment."

    Hmm, really? FDA cautions against use of hydroxychloroquine
    -------
    Without comments,As nation's hydroxychloroquine supply dwindles, patients who who rely on it begin to worry: 'Like survival of the fittest
    ------
    Edit

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    There is no effect on death per million people.
    Indeed.For example, Sweden has one of the highest death rates in the world. The country has 6.08 deaths per million people, higher than the UK, USA and Italy. Sweden's death toll unnerves its Nordic neighbours

    @ Stario, during an outbreak of a pandemic, what we want to know isn't the CFR. It is the infection fatality rate.During the during the SARS-CoV outbreak in 2003, the CFR was initially reported to be 3-5% during the early stages of the outbreak, but had risen to around 10% by the end. See here, What do we know about the risk of dying from COVID-19
    Last edited by Ludicus; May 23, 2020 at 01:29 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  11. #1631

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    UK COVID-19 vaccine trial may fail due to low transmission in population
    There is a 50% chance the trial may give 'no result.'
    "“It is a race, yes. But it's not a race against the other guys," he said. "It's a race against the virus disappearing – and against time. We said earlier in the year that there was an 80% chance of developing an effective vaccine by September. But at the moment, there’s a 50% chance that we get no result at all.
    "We’re in the bizarre position of wanting COVID to stay, at least for a little while. But cases are declining.""
    https://www.jpost.com/international/...ulation-629082

  12. #1632

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    UK COVID-19 vaccine trial may fail due to low transmission in population
    There is a 50% chance the trial may give 'no result.'
    "“It is a race, yes. But it's not a race against the other guys," he said. "It's a race against the virus disappearing – and against time. We said earlier in the year that there was an 80% chance of developing an effective vaccine by September. But at the moment, there’s a 50% chance that we get no result at all.
    "We’re in the bizarre position of wanting COVID to stay, at least for a little while. But cases are declining.""
    https://www.jpost.com/international/...ulation-629082
    This is the actual part that explain why it might fail:
    The team has recruited 10,000 people to test the vaccine, some of whom will be given the vaccine and others a placebo. But as it is unethical to purposely infect people in the trial with COVID-19, participants will be asked to go about their normal routine in the expectation that some will be exposed to it naturally. However, that is unlikely to happen if the virus is not spreading, meaning that no conclusions can be drawn one way or the other about the vaccine's efficacy.
    The Armenian Issue
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  13. #1633
    B. W.'s Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    The one thing that is known without any doubt: big pharma won't make any money off Hydroxycholroquine because it is cheap and readily available. It is for that reason alone I expect there to be studies claiming it is harmful and does not work.

    Now mind you, I'm not saying it works against Covid. I'm just saying there is plenty of reason for studies to come out saying it is ineffective. If you doubt that, ask yourself how many studies came out and said smoking isn't harmful. You can buy anything these days.

    And as far as the drug being harmful, people with Lupus have been taking it for decades without ill effects. Can you find people that it effected adversely? Of course you can, but it would be the same for virtually any drug.

  14. #1634

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    I managed to have a look at that document when Gaidin posted the link, all I saw in between the sea of graphs was a comment that the death\infection rate was declining in some states after reopening while in others it stayed steady or slightly increased. Not exactly reason for those headlines, but then it's a newsmedia's business to spin the growth rate of grass into a national spectacle, and a lawnmower man is never far.

    Should have saved the document, the wayback machine is no help here.

    This page of JP Morgan is down as well https://privatebank.jpmorgan.com/gl/en/insights/investing/eotm/coronavirus-research - https://privatebank.jpmorgan.com/gl/...virus-research
    The decline is real, to the chagrin and absolute callousness of the globalists. REEE SHUT DOWN THE ECONOMY.

  15. #1635
    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    The one thing that is known without any doubt: big pharma won't make any money off Hydroxycholroquine because it is cheap and readily available. It is for that reason alone I expect there to be studies claiming it is harmful and does not work.
    Shall we follow the Hydroxychloroquine profit trail and see where it goes also?

    Not staking an opinion, just mentioning for the sake of due diligence and impartial commenting...

  16. #1636

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    If Obama was president we'd already have 4 different conspiracy theories about how companies that produce hydroxychloroquine have ties to the president and that due to sheer numbers that will be sold its gonna make them filthy rich.
    The Armenian Issue
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  17. #1637
    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    If Obama was president we'd already have 4 different conspiracy theories about how companies that produce hydroxychloroquine have ties to the president and that due to sheer numbers that will be sold its gonna make them filthy rich.
    To be fair...
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  18. #1638
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/fu...aff.2020.00598

    I wonder how accurate this study is, and how it should affect policy makers.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  19. #1639
    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/fu...aff.2020.00598

    I wonder how accurate this study is, and how it should affect policy makers.
    It will probably affect policy makers in line with their base voters positions in the US culture wars.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  20. #1640

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/fu...aff.2020.00598

    I wonder how accurate this study is, and how it should affect policy makers.
    Their statistical analysis is probably correct, but I doubt their hypotheses meant to account for the remainder not explained by socioeconomic factors. People of sub-Saharan African ancestry have different immune systems than people of European ancestry. Sub-Saharan people tend to have more aggressive immune responses at the trade off of being more susceptible to inflammatory diseases. This should make them more susceptible to severe cases of COVID-19. Vitamin D deficiency rate is also another likely factor. Whatever the policy is, it should probably be guided by medical data rather than assumptions about subconscious bias or whatever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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