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Thread: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

  1. #721

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spyrith View Post
    The history books will remember it as starting in China, but will mostly focus on how incompetent the West was in containing the disease. If the CCP puts a lid on infections (as their official data suggests), but the West loses control of it and has hundreds of thousands of dead, then every historian will use coronavirus as an example when a democracy was more incompetent than a dictatorship.
    Think of it this way. At least. For all of their lying. China responded on a national level. Trump is leaving the states to fight amongst themselves.

    Also, this isn't the first flu-like disease of it's kind. Google the flu pandemics of 57-58 and the one from the late 60's. Each one had at least 1 million dead, if not more. Both started from China.
    You're abusing the word 'first' in this case. It's the first of its kind because no human has ever come in contact with it and nobody anywhere has ever built up a resistance to it. It's hitting the world like a sledgehammer.
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  2. #722
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    The main point i see from this pandemic is the sheer stupidity of humankind on the most part. Nobody is willing to take this matter seriously until they see bodies at their doorstep. I hear people still calling the virus a hoax, demanding to know the names of the dead like this is a huge conspiracy to control the masses. The few intelligent people may take every precaution but there is a huge percentage of ignorant people that is irresponsible at best.
    The island i live in just got its "first" case and the family of the infected is hiding now to avoid the police. From this attitude alone you can guess that they have infected another 10 people. And that's the best case scenario.

  3. #723
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spyrith View Post
    every historian will use coronavirus as an example when a democracy was more incompetent than a dictatorship
    Sadly.
    Both started from China.
    Sure. China is huge, with 1,386 billion people.China now banned the trade and consumption of wild animals.
    It doesn't really matter, but the so-called Spanish's flu started from the US, Kansas, and nobody calls it the "American flu". Or the 2009 pandemic (started in Mexico).
    For our xenophobic residents,
    It takes a whole world to create a new virus, not just China The Guardian
    Laura Spinney is the author of The Spanish Flu of 1918 and How it Changed the World. She rightly says- read the whole article

    When I get stressed, a patch of annoying red eczema appears on the inside of my upper right arm. The doctor gives me some cream to rub on it, but I also know that to stop it coming back I have to deal with the underlying problem.
    Too much information, you’re thinking, but let me make the analogy. The reason we shouldn’t call the Sars-CoV-2 virus causing global misery the “Chinese virus” is the same reason I shouldn’t blame my eczema on my upper arm: there is clearly a superficial weakness there, but the real cause lies elsewhere.

    ...Even so, to play devil’s advocate for a moment, the problem could still be regarded as uniquely Chinese. But there are two reasons why that’s not true. First, with the opening up of China, its agribusiness has ceased to be wholly Chinese-owned. It is a big recipient of foreign direct investment. Second, as the American pandemic expert, David Morens, and his colleagues pointed out last month in the New England Journal of Medicine, we’ve been watching a similar drama unfold over a much longer timescale with influenza – the disease that has caused more pandemics in the history of humanity than any other.

    Flu viruses that infect animals, including poultry and pigs, have periodically spilled over into humans ever since we domesticated those animals millennia ago. But the factory farms that produce our food today ratchet up the virulence of those flu viruses just before they spill over. This ratcheting up has been documented in Europe, Australia and the US more than it has in poor or emerging economies, and it’s what gave rise to the last flu pandemic in 2009. The first cases of that pandemic were recorded in California, but nobody calls it the American flu – and it’s right that they don’t, if only because American farms aren’t wholly American-owned either. China, for one, has invested in them.
    “We have created a global, human-dominated ecosystem that serves as a playground for the emergence and host-switching of animal viruses,” wrote Morens et al. The resulting diseases are suffered locally at first, as is reflected in their names – Ebola and Zika virus diseases and Bolivian hemorrhagic fever, to name just three – but the irony is that some of them, such as HIV and Covid-19, go on to become global. It’s hard not to see a terrible natural justice in that.

    ..In 2015, the World Health Organization issued guidelines on how to name diseases, which stipulated that such names should not single out particular human populations, places, animals or food. Names that commit those sins often turn out to be wrong anyway, but by the time that becomes clear the damage has already been done. Gay-related immune deficiency or Grid, the first name given to Aids, stigmatised the gay community while stymying research into how the disease affected other groups. President Trump’s labelling of Sars-CoV-2 as the “Chinese virus” is also unhelpful. At a time when the main centres of Covid-19 infection are outside China, and Americans and Europeans could be learning valuable lessons from the Chinese, he is exchanging insults with Chinese politicians who have accused him of racism and hinted – just as preposterously – that the US military brought the virus to China. The slanging match suits Trump, distracting from his mishandling of the epidemic at home, but it does the rest of us no favours.
    Last edited by Ludicus; March 27, 2020 at 11:24 AM.
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  4. #724
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Ludicus, did China fail to contain SARS CoV II in December, or not. Did they try to cover it up, or not.
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  5. #725
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    @Mithradates: Spain is going down, poor souls. How is the situation is Hungary?
    Its the calm before the storm. The streets are empty, the army is building a lot of field hospitals and TP hoarding has reached a new level.



    From tomorrow, people older than 65 are only allowed to visit shops between 9-12, but only they are allowed to visit shops in this period. Tthe goal is to separate the vulnerable age group from the others, is this happening elsewhere too?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Who are you quoting?
    A depressingly long list of politicians, mayors and "experts" who downplayed the severity of this pandemic.

  6. #726

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    My precioussssssss^^



    In Germany at least partial lock down seems slowly to work, as infection rate is going under the "Infections doubling every three days" line:

    https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/yEoQ4/5/
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; March 27, 2020 at 11:50 AM.
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  7. #727

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Sure. China is huge, with 1,386 billion people.China now banned the trade and consumption of wild animals.
    It doesn't really matter, but the so-called Spanish's flu started from the US, Kansas, and nobody calls it the "American flu".
    Did the Spanish Flu start "from" the US?
    As I understand it, the first cases were reported in Kansas. But it may have actually started in China.
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...V6YaQ59lE1LN3Y

    While other theories have it starting in France or Austria.

    Is calling it the Spanish flu racist (Spanish called it the French flu)?
    Is calling this the Kung flu racist or Hong Kong fluey?

  8. #728

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post

    From tomorrow, people older than 65 are only allowed to visit shops between 9-12, but only they are allowed to visit shops in this period. Tthe goal is to separate the vulnerable age group from the others, is this happening elsewhere too?
    I give you irony: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...show-it-can-be
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  9. #729

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    It seems that some governments are using ongoing pandemic as an excuse to engage in corruption or abuse of power. Liberals here already want to have power of spending without parliamentary approval. It is quite disgusting to see career politicians and various government agencies using virus as an excuse to enrich themselves or give themselves unlimited political powers. These politicians are just as bad as the virus itself.

  10. #730

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    It seems that some governments are using ongoing pandemic as an excuse to engage in corruption or abuse of power. Liberals here already want to have power of spending without parliamentary approval. It is quite disgusting to see career politicians and various government agencies using virus as an excuse to enrich themselves or give themselves unlimited political powers. These politicians are just as bad as the virus itself.
    What country do you think you're talking about now?
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  11. #731
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/23/13/17-0601_article
    Preventing zoonotic diseases requires coordinated actions by government authorities responsible for human and animal health. Constructing the frameworks needed to foster intersectoral collaboration can be approached in many ways. We highlight 3 examples of approaches to implement zoonotic disease prevention and control programs. The first, rabies control in Ethiopia, was implemented using an umbrella approach: a comprehensive program designed for accelerated impact. The second, a monkeypox program in Democratic Republic of the Congo, was implemented in a stepwise manner, whereby incremental improvements and activities were incorporated into the program. The third approach, a pathogen discovery program, applied in the country of Georgia, was designed to characterize and understand the ecology, epidemiology, and pathogenesis of a new zoonotic pathogen. No one approach is superior, but various factors should be taken into account during design, planning, and implementation.
    https://research.illinois.edu/regula...notic-diseases
    1. PROPER PERSONAL HYGIENE



    • Wash hands before and after animal handling.
    • Do not eat or drink in the animal housing areas.
    • Wear coveralls, farm specific clothing or laboratory coats when handling animals.
    • Avoid handling sick animals or animals with lesions unless gloved.
    • Wear a mask if you are allergic to animal hair or dander or if feed or bedding dust is present.
    • If you are sick, DO NOT enter the agricultural animal facilities. You are more susceptible to other infective agents and you may transfer pathogens to the animals!
    • Routinely wear gloves when cleaning animal area.
    • Note progression of any illness. Report illnesses to your supervisor.
    • Inform physician of your animal related activities.


    1. ENVIRONMENTAL MAINTENANCE



    • Keep animal housing areas well organized and clean.


    • Avoid urine and fecal build-up. Dry feces result in fecal dust which may be inhaled.
    • Clean rooms have a lower likelihood of horizontal or zoonotic transfer.
    • Proper ventilation protects the animal and workers.
    • Clean feed and bedding from floors. Litter attracts vermin which may introduce a zoonotic disease into the facility.


    1. HERD/FLOCK MAINTENANCE



    • Observe animals for health status on a daily basis.
    • Report sick or dead animals.


    • Note health problems such as diarrhea, difficulty breathing, depressed, immobile.
    • Take extra caution in cleaning the areas around ill animals. Don’t spread possible pathogens.
    • Isolate affected animals as appropriate.
    • Record history or progression of animal disease.
    There are basic measures for preventing zoonotic diseases like SARS CoV II that exist. Viruses spreading from animal to human are not inevitable or equally likely in all situations or places. It depends on animal>human health and hygiene standards.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2169-0
    The ongoing outbreak of viral pneumonia in China and beyond is associated with a novel coronavirus, SARS-CoV-21. This outbreak has been tentatively associated with a seafood market in Wuhan, China, where the sale of wild animals may be the source of zoonotic infection2. Although bats are likely reservoir hosts for SARS-CoV-2, the identity of any intermediate host that might have facilitated transfer to humans is unknown. Here, we report the identification of SARS-CoV-2-related coronaviruses in Malayan pangolins (Manis javanica) seized in anti-smuggling operations in southern China. Metagenomic sequencing identified pangolin-associated coronaviruses that belong to two sub-lineages of SARS-CoV-2-related coronaviruses, including one that exhibits strong similarity to SARS-CoV-2 in the receptor-binding domain. The discovery of multiple lineages of pangolin coronavirus and their similarity to SARS-CoV-2 suggests that pangolins should be considered as possible hosts in the emergence of novel coronaviruses and should be removed from wet markets to prevent zoonotic transmission.
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  12. #732
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spyrith View Post
    The history books will remember it as starting in China, but will mostly focus on how incompetent the West was in containing the disease. If the CCP puts a lid on infections (as their official data suggests), but the West loses control of it and has hundreds of thousands of dead, then every historian will use coronavirus as an example when a democracy was more incompetent than a dictatorship.
    Competence is relative. By the time the CCP’s coverup had been foiled by the rapid spread of the virus, the disease had already gone global, as the timeline shows. Competence was not going to spare the west from the disease through effective containment at that point. Korea, for example, has been able to substantially limit the surge there, by adopting a strategy similar to what was additionally proven more effective than the CCP’s during the H1N1 outbreak, as I referenced earlier:
    Rather than seek to contain the spread of the virus, the US government and health authorities focused their energy and resources on strengthening surge capacity to treat the increasing number of cases and diminish the virus spread. According to a report of the President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology (PCAST), there were four critical pillars to the mitigation effort: vaccines antivirals medical care and non-medical interventions. Particular attention was focused on ‘decisions that could reduce instances of severe disease and death by accelerating the delivery and use of vaccines; developing integrated plans to protect especially vulnerable populations; and ensuring access to intensive care facilities.

    What can we learn from these two countries’ responses to the H1N1 pandemic? A comparison of the effectiveness of the two strategies clearly points to the inferiority of the containment strategy in handling the H1N1 pandemic. The containment approach is costly, unsustainable, inflexible and impractical. When adopted at the very beginning of the outbreak, it may help slow down the transmission of the virus. But, against the backdrop of globalisation, it is impossible to institute barriers against such spread. Moreover, it may complicate efforts of surge capacity building when a shift to mitigation becomes necessary. Interestingly, China looked to a centuries-old approach to contain the rapid spread of the H1N1 flu pandemic, even though both scientific data and historical evidence suggested the limits of this approach.

    https://www.cfr.org › contentPDFWeb resultsComparing the H1N1 Crises and Responses in the US and China - Council on Foreign Relations
    The CCP’s authoritarian coverup and political theater is responsible for this pandemic, regardless of the reaction of the rest of the world being delayed by the CCP coverup, or the reaction time of other governments.

  13. #733

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    In Germany at least partial lock down seems slowly to work, as infection rate is going under the "Infections doubling every three days" line:

    https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/yEoQ4/5/
    As I read everything I read the numbers will keep doubling for a while. The first goal is to get it to double slower. Always. You can't just suddenly reverse it. If every three days infections double. Sometime before infections *go down*, infections will still double *every six days* and then infections will still double *every ten days*. At some point infections will go down. Think of a car going 70 mph and you need to slam that thing into reverse. This is basically a positive power function without an asymptotic line. You hit the brakes(or just put it in reverse) and start slowing down and eventually the car starts going backwards. You hit every speed in between. You don't just go from +70mph to -30mph. Same thing with COVID numbers. No matter what the countries do, numbers will keep going up until they know where their sick are and they have the equipment they need, and they have the cooperation of their people to keep it from spreading, and the doubling slows, slows more, stops, and infection rate starts going down.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  14. #734

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Its like a big vessel, which will still drive forward, even if you have your "machines full stop".

    As i have heard in the news today, german government plans are to further increase tests from 500.000 per week to 200.000 per day.

    All you can do is testing, testing, testing.

    Obeying to the authorities is a "german virtue". So i think, this will be the least problem.
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  15. #735
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Did the Spanish Flu start "from" the US?
    As I understand it, the first cases were reported in Kansas. But it may have actually started in China.
    Not really.It's a fact.The 1918 epidemic started in Kansas, sailed with American troops across the Atlantic and spread across the world.

    Is calling it the Spanish flu racist
    ...or "American flu". Yes. Calling the 1918 virus the "American virus" is racist. The same applies to Trump's racist slur for the virus. Fauci said the would never call coronavirus the "The Chinese virus", and he is right. Read my previous post.It takes a whole world to create a new virus, not just China The Guardian

    ---------
    This idiot is going to be reelected.
    Trump Talks To Hannity About Coronavirus ...
    I don’t believe you need 40,000 or 30,000 ventilators. You go into major hospitals sometimes, and they’ll have two ventilators
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    From tomorrow, people older than 65 are only allowed to visit shops between 9-12, but only they are allowed to visit shops in this period. Tthe goal is to separate the vulnerable age group from the others, is this happening elsewhere too?
    Here,there are dedicated shopping hours for the elderly, between 9-10.But they allowed to visit shops (grocery stores,meat and fish shops, pharmacies) anytime, and they receive prompt and preferential treatment.
    Last edited by Ludicus; March 27, 2020 at 01:25 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  16. #736

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    What country do you think you're talking about now?
    I'm talking about Canada, but American statists aren't any better. it seems to some ongoing pandemic is an excuse to double-down on partisanship or settle scores with opposition rather then deal with pandemic itself.

  17. #737

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Not really.It's a fact.The 1918 epidemic started in Kansas, sailed with American troops across the Atlantic and spread across the world.
    I do think I just provided a link to a study, which has China as the more likely origin:
    "The most plausible explanation is that the 1918–19 influenza virus, or a closely related precursor, had originated in China, so that many Chinese had prior exposure and hence some immunity. It is thus conceivable that Chinese workers en route to France would have carried the virus with them, leading to the pandemic."
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...V6YaQ59lE1LN3Y

    As opposed to you just saying something...

    Or from National Geographic:
    "Historian Mark Humphries of Canada's Memorial University of Newfoundland says that newly unearthed records confirm that one of the side stories of the war—the mobilization of 96,000 Chinese laborers to work behind the British and French lines on World War I's Western Front—may have been the source of the pandemic."
    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/n...cience-health/
    ...or "American flu". Yes. Calling the 1918 virus the "American virus" is racist. The same applies to Trump's racist slur for the virus. Fauci said the would never call coronavirus the "The Chinese virus", and he is right. Read my previous post.It takes a whole world to create a new virus, not just China The Guardian
    So then, is Kung flu racist?
    What about West Nile virus or Ebola virus?
    Last edited by Infidel144; March 27, 2020 at 01:41 PM.

  18. #738

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I'm talking about Canada, but American statists aren't any better. it seems to some ongoing pandemic is an excuse to double-down on partisanship or settle scores with opposition rather then deal with pandemic itself.
    Sure Jan. I'll wait until you name names that you never name in your conspiracy theorist rants.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  19. #739

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Competence is relative. By the time the CCP’s coverup had been foiled by the rapid spread of the virus, the disease had already gone global, as the timeline shows. Competence was not going to spare the west from the disease through effective containment at that point. Korea, for example, has been able to substantially limit the surge there, by adopting a strategy similar to what was additionally proven more effective than the CCP’s during the H1N1 outbreak, as I referenced earlier:
    I'm not sure what your point is. "Competence" would've saved the West the current crisis. We could've taken steps to prepare the nation for the incoming disaster. The first coronavirus case in United States was in mid-January. The lockdowns did not start until March and China's own massive lockdown and final admission of human-to-human spread was also in mid-January. Trump wasted precious time claiming the virus was a hoax, that it was under control, and that we were under no danger. Yes, people should blame China for the incoming recession and crisis. However, they should be even more angry at politicians who refused to prepare themselves, who refused to take the political hits to organize a proper response. If you're outraged by the CCP propaganda and cover-up, then take a look at the political theater in United States at this very moment. Wasting precious time, precious government resources, and people's attention span on trying to pin the blame on China and making fun of its response to the epidemic.

    The CCP’s authoritarian coverup and political theater is responsible for this pandemic, regardless of the reaction of the rest of the world being delayed by the CCP coverup, or the reaction time of other governments.
    Indeed. The CCP's cover-up is intolerable and should be condemned by everyone, especially China's own citizens. The weeks long cover-up is precisely what allowed the virus to spread for weeks on end, eventually spreading across the whole world. I don't know how much precious time local authorities and the CCP wasted, but that does not absolve the West of it's own incompetence. Nor does it mitigate the accomplishments China has managed since. They've effectively managed the outbreak. They've built hospitals and they've locked down the relevant parts of the country. Now, they're helping the rest of the world solve the crisis that they did not contain.

  20. #740
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    I'm not sure what your point is. "Competence" would've saved the West the current crisis. We could've taken steps to prepare the nation for the incoming disaster. The first coronavirus case in United States was in mid-January. The lockdowns did not start until March and China's own massive lockdown and final admission of human-to-human spread was also in mid-January. Trump wasted precious time claiming the virus was a hoax, that it was under control, and that we were under no danger. Yes, people should blame China for the incoming recession and crisis. However, they should be even more angry at politicians who refused to prepare themselves, who refused to take the political hits to organize a proper response. If you're outraged by the CCP propaganda and cover-up, then take a look at the political theater in United States at this very moment. Wasting precious time, precious government resources, and people's attention span on trying to pin the blame on China and making fun of its response to the epidemic.
    Any competence or incompetence displayed by other governments is secondary because they could only react too late to a developing crisis that had been hidden and then misrepresented by the CCP for weeks. The CCP has an established record of exacerbating these kinds of outbreaks for political reasons. This time it caused a global pandemic. I can only assume your rephrasing of my criticism of Trump’s reaction is your way of agreeing with me.
    Indeed. The CCP's cover-up is intolerable and should be condemned by everyone, especially China's own citizens. The weeks long cover-up is precisely what allowed the virus to spread for weeks on end, eventually spreading across the whole world. I don't know how much precious time local authorities and the CCP wasted, but that does not absolve the West of it's own incompetence. Nor does it mitigate the accomplishments China has managed since. They've effectively managed the outbreak. They've built hospitals and they've locked down the relevant parts of the country. Now, they're helping the rest of the world solve the crisis that they did not contain.
    It remains to be seen whether China has truly contained the disease there given that information is routinely manipulated and controlled, or what help and solutions are actually available to the world offered by the CCP. Whatever that may ultimately involve, it doesn’t matter now, because the disease is everywhere. As the study and timeline shows, it is everywhere due in large part to the delay caused by the cover up.

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