Last edited by Ukiah; February 25, 2020 at 08:46 AM.
You admit that you know nothing of the US budget process and yet you weigh in with some whattaboutism. Typical. Trump's budget for the CDC is around 33 BILLION $, not millions. There are no cuts in the CDC budget...which means the articles Conon394 cited were outright lying. That is why it is so shameful.
Trump's CDC budget, notice there are no cuts, none whatsoever:
https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/p...dget/index.htm
The entire Trump proposal for the budget is linked in post #133 if you want to read it.
This from the guy who thinks National Review is a pro-Trump site. You obviously haven't read any of the pap Jonah Goldberg and Rich Lowrey publish there.
Last edited by B. W.; February 25, 2020 at 12:43 PM.
Right, comparing figures from the same source is whataboutism, let's stick to hailing fixes that reverse the cuts previously done during the same administration.
I admit it, US budgets are a mystery to me: I haven't got a clue where the 33 billion figure comes from nor how it relates to the discussion about CDC that we are having here, (figure for the total health care budget?), it certainly does not appear to be for the CDC: according to the detailed PDF that is the source for the figures on the page you link to the total CDC budget is roughly 7.3billion - down over 10% from previous year (8.28b). I used the figures from the bottom line instead of the 'total' (7.18b versus 6.48b), my guess is the 'total' is planned expenditure and the bottom line is provisional \reserve\whatever? Global health is one of the few sections that actually remained roughly the same with 488m.
See the screenshots in the spoiler.
Note: I have no idea why you continuously mention conon394's links in response to my posts - I am exclusively responding to material you posted, using figures from sources you yourself provide.
Spoiler for budget total:
Spoiler for global health section:
Looking forward to being educated with facts that actually support your claims.
Edit: I am getting a bit confused between you pointing out that the global pandemic control allocation increased by 50m (apparently included in the total of 475m for the global health section as per your linked '2020 budget highlights') and the above '19' budget that was 488m already.
Spoiler for relevant budget speech excerpts from your link:
"Oh, and by the way, you should have read the budget proposal. It includes 100 million to the CDC for the purpose of global pandemic control...a 50 million dollar increase."
I am not sure what is praiseworthy about reshuffling slightly reduced funds. If I am wrong do correct me, please.
Where are you getting 33 billion from, I don’t see it in the link chap.
I suppose anything dissenting against the leader is just pap eh.This from the guy who thinks National Review is a pro-Trump site. You obviously haven't read any of the pap Jonah Goldberg and Rich Lowrey publish there.
It has a huge pandemic potential.
We are between Scylla and Charybdis. IF it's better not to impede the free flow of people, in order to avoid economic disruption ( from what I'm seeing in Europe), we are going to let the virus go, and spread rapidly and widely. The question is, are we prepared? not at all.
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
I think its a pandemic now, its just Iran can't measure the extent of the outbreak so the numbers aren't official. Not sure WTF is happening in Italy, very surprised as their health system is not the worst. Maybe decades of Trumpish rule have eroded their state to the point of abject incompetence.
There's more than just two monsters here, there's a bunch of misatched agendas. Countries with ageing populations are looking at a higher number of critical cases: typically they also have something like the infrastructure in place but not the US which has a highly variable (and sometimes vampiric) health system. China's fairly centralised system meant official denial was uniform but so is the harsh reaction in place.
The US probably lacks the political will to undertake savage measures if there's a serious outbreak in the continental US. The reversal of CDC cuts is just another example of poll-driven blatherskiting from Trump and demonstrates his unfitness for office; what I would give for a sensible technocrat like Bush Snr in office right now. I'd even take a slimy POS like Clinton or Nixon, at least those oily scumbags were capable.
The manufacturing outlook is dire: apparently Apple will run out of iPhones in September. Given Xie (and Trump)'s populism is based in part on the exchange of cheap consumer goods the fact the world's manufacturing hub is shutting down could contribute to political instability, nowhere more than in the two most powerful polities. Retooling for the Philippines or India is possible by likely they will join the party soon enough in any case. The current crisis will likely impoverish Australia which has been living off Chinese expansion for three decades: whatever else happens our happy time looks to be done for now.
Jatte lambastes Calico Rat
The WHO says, "We are in a phase of preparing for a potential pandemic".
I completely agree.Estimation of COVID-2019 burden and potential for international dissemination of infection from Iran.. - medRxiv
This article is a preprint and has not yet been peer-reviewed
Anyway, let's keep in mind that Schengen rules give member countries wide discretion to reintroduce border controls in response to a "serious threat to public policy or internal security" (sic)...it is likely that Iran is currently experiencing a COVID-19 epidemic of significant size for such exportations to be occurring. This is concerning, both for public health in Iran itself, and because of the high likelihood for outward dissemination of the epidemic to neighbouring countries with lower capacity to respond to infectious diseases epidemics
--
Edit, from the news.
Chinese Hospitals Deploy AI to Help Diagnose Covid-19 - Wired
Yes!Definitively diagnosing Covid-19 requires detecting the virus that causes it. Because testing takes some time, and some laboratories are becoming overloaded, clinical signs such as studying lung scans have become more important. Official Covid-19 diagnosis guidelines released by China’s National Commission recommend using chest CT images as a major factor in diagnosis.
AI software might lessen the burden on hospitals dealing with outbreaks by helping radiologists identify patients with the disease earlier.
Meanwhile in Japan, Hospitals in Japan refusing to test many who suspect they have
Experts point out that the vague criteria have caused confusion among medical staff.
Last edited by Ludicus; February 26, 2020 at 09:53 AM.
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
Any idea what the ventilator to population ratio is... anywhere? I know roughly speaking - not enough.
The WHO is beholden to political interests. The reality meets their own phase 6 definition - sustained community level outbreak in two or more countries in one WHO region and at least one country in another WHO region. Maybe it hasn't been long enough to be considered "sustained" in Italy or verified well enough in Iran, but that's sort of splitting hairs.
You made your whattaboutism post in defense of Conon394 and now you're denying that it had anything to do with it. I'm not going to engage you in your whattaboutism, move the goal post, pursuit.
The fact is that Conon and his sources claimed that Trump cut the CDC's budget and that is patently false and was proved by the CDC link I provided. The negative figures you quote from the PDF are there because they list reduced funding for building and facilities. That's where they are getting those negative figures.
Anybody who knows anything about government installations knows that there are dozens of empty buildings (real estate) on these installations that are outdated and unused, but still being maintained. I spent over 30 years working at a large government facility and I have seen this first hand. That's where the funding was cut and the PDF shows this.
No program funding was cut. Fact.
https://healthinfonet.ecu.edu.au/healthinfonet/getContent.php?linkid=609294&title=Admitted+patient+care+2016-17%3A+Australian+hospital+statistics&contentid=34922_1 p.268
In Australia 2016/2017 we had 23,000 cases of pneumonia requiring hospitalisation(that's just under one case per million)and 6000 cases where ventilation was required. There's a number of well funded programs in all regions addressing pulmonary health because of anti-smoking measures as well as the needs of the ageing population.
Its reasonable to expect overlap of Covid cases with existing cases with poor pulmonary health (COPD, cancer etc) but the high infection rate would conservatively see those numbers multiply if there was a general outbreak.
During the Swine Flu outbreak entire schools were shut down and isolation clinics rapidly established: the population is docile and immunisation friendly so I have some confidence Australia can resist a wave of this. However multiple outbreaks over several years would be a different matter.
I know you have to make that disclaimer because of how the UN is seen in the US, but this action is not that political in my view. WHO is signalling as hard as it can that this is a pandemic before the definition is met because they see that's how its rolling.
Jatte lambastes Calico Rat
IncorrectNo program funding was cut. Fact.
https://www.cdc.gov/budget/documents...tification.pdfAnybody who knows anything about government installations knows that there are dozens of empty buildings (real estate) on these installations that are outdated and unused, but still being maintained. I spent over 30 years working at a large government facility and I have seen this first hand. That's where the funding was cut and the PDF shows this.
Take a walk to page to 310 I see no grand cost saving in only building and facilities - in fact there is a increase. Emerging and Zoonoitc infectious diseases (pg 105) oh yep look cuts now (2020) and proposed cuts in the future.
Proposed page 191 Public Health Scientific Services 578 497 to 58 000 - nope no cut there I am sure they were just lying and running empty buildings... but that would still be in the building and facilities line item not the program budget. Maybe over paid tree trimmers
Last edited by conon394; February 26, 2020 at 10:38 PM.
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
We are talking about preventive measures. In Europe, in my opinion, we need border controls.
Saying "We are in a phase of preparing for a potential pandemic" is a realistic statement.The risk of a severe pandemic is very high."Preparing for a potential Coronavirus Pandemic" (WHO, Feb ...
------
Let's see.
The head of immunization at the CDC, Nancy Messonnier, says,
Another realistic statement.In the absence of vaccines or medicines, officials would need to consider possible school closures
I understand this whole situation may seem overwhelming, and that disruption to everyday life may be severe. But these are things that people need to start thinking about now
I had a conversation with my family over breakfast this morning, and I told my children that – while I didn’t think they were at risk – right now, we as a family, need to be preparing for significant disruption of our lives"
Trump- world's great expert on almost everything - is reportedly furious at her and says US risk "remains very low"
Trump on Twitter,
Trump, not the WHO, is beholden to political interests."Low Ratings Fake News MSDNC (Comcast) & @CNN are doing everything possible to make the Caronavirus look as bad as possible"
Last edited by Ludicus; February 26, 2020 at 06:55 PM.
Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
Charles Péguy
Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
Thomas Piketty
You're not engaging anything because you're either not capable or not willing to read basic documents that have been provided by Trump's administration. Just to clear it up for the rest of the forum, you have so far failed to adequately address any point made against you.
You're saying this merely because of the images shown to you and not because you've actually read or analyzed anything. Read the CDC report kindly provided by conon.Anybody who knows anything about government installations knows that there are dozens of empty buildings (real estate) on these installations that are outdated and unused, but still being maintained. I spent over 30 years working at a large government facility and I have seen this first hand. That's where the funding was cut and the PDF shows this.
Many programs were cut across the board. Fact.No program funding was cut. Fact.
Patron: The Mighty Katsumoto
Sukiyama's Blog
Simple explanations of Austrian Economics POV on a number of issues.
Simplified Western Philosophy
Best of Thooorin, CS:GO Analyst and Historian.
If you think my direct response to your post was defending conon's stand then that's fine by me, each to his own defensiveness.
Thanks for pointing out the building maintenance reduction (I stand educated, was it that difficult?), it explains a good portion (480m\68%) of the drop in the overall total budget authority for the CDC, which still leaves a difference of 228m (4% of 6.484b CDC total) that got cut somewhere else - I'll go with 'mildly reduced' here.
Which leaves the second spoiler: leaving the global health section fairly unchanged (reduced by 10m\4%) and then boasting about doubling the money allocated to a sub section [(GHS) (non add)?] of it. The 50m increase (10% of the global section total) came from other sub sections if basic math is to be believed, remember - the global health budget was fairly unchanged (488m reduced to 477m), hence my final observation in my previous post:
"I am not sure what is praiseworthy about reshuffling slightly reduced funds."
In other words: where is the 60m cut that makes up the other side of the equation?
Summary:
1. While claiming that 'no programs were cut' in response to this CDC budget discussion is downright misleading (just as well I promised not to be snarky) given the above anything stronger then 'slightly reduced' would seem excessive.
2. Trying to pass off a reshuffling of funds as an increase in a budget is misleading as well.
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
OMG, Hahaha! It took me five minutes to quit laughing. I hope you wasted your time reading all those pages. Too funny. Agencies always ask for more than they actually expect to get and they always make sure to spend all the money that's left at the end of the year. I can't remember a single year that bosses did not come around and ask for a list of things to buy so the money could be spent.
So, once again, point out a single item in this list that took a cut:
https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/p...dget/index.htm
Whattaboutism on steroids! There was no cut in the budget. There are no budget cuts on this list. That was the topic. Quit trying to move the goal posts.
https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/p...dget/index.htm
Last edited by B. W.; February 26, 2020 at 11:17 PM.
Thanks for confirming the page that I got the PDF document from that I am referencing. Do kindly have a look at the bottom, that's where the link to the PDF is. The one with a reduced CDC budget, even after the building maintenance you explained, the one I provided the screenshots from, the one you responded to.
You will then notice that all figures I am mentioning are factual and amount to a mild cut in the CDC budget and no 'whataboutism' shouting is going to change anything about it.
My premise is that your (now repeated) claim that there are no cuts in the CDC budget is factually wrong. And I demonstrated it using material you yourself linked to.
You copied the 'Summary' section of my post, did you read it?
See above for the source of my figures.
GENERAL
For some reason everyone appears to be thinking that I am arguing CDC budget changes vis à vis Health budget changes while my only tangential mention of it was the budget speech itself as reference for the CDC figures in my first post.
How many sources\links\screenshots does it take to make it obvious that I am only talking about the CDC budget? How many times do I have to painstakingly make sure to use references to the CDC budget to avoid ambiguity?
Apologies for not making provisions for reflexive responses and automatic assumptions but then comparing the CDC budgets of the last years initially (and never mentioning the total health budget in any form) should have been enough of a give away, right?
Edit: maybe someone can answer me this simple question: "Why would I be interested in discussing the full health budget in a discussion about the corona virus - instead of focusing on the CDC that actually deals with the virus?"
Again re my post above 151. No Building or facility cuts but program cuts.
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
So now we're supposed to trust Pence of all people to be able to handle things if there is an epidemic in the US (as it's looking increasingly likely there will be).
Anyone else getting the distinct feeling that Trump has been told things are going to get very bad very quickly and decided to throw Pence under the bus?
While the man has no clue were medical issues are concerned this isn't necessarily a prerequisite to head something like this. What will come handy is the fact that he is in a position to get things happening fast, let's just hope that he doesn't mess up like he did in Indiana.
I wonder what he did to piss the president off? It's unlikely this virus will magically pass the US by without casualties, which means he will be the fall guy so that the president doesn't have to back pedal on his assurances.