Thread: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

  1. #3281

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    I'd say without looking into it, that the data there probably aligns with other metrics like income levels, education, health care coverage etc etc etc at least at a guess. Maybe Cope can pull up that data for us so we can have a more complete picture before we discuss the "why" part.

    I only wish enough people were vaccinated in my country so that we could have these conversations. Instead it seems that those who are least likely to get vaccinated are either hyper-privileged or under-privileged. And nobody who wants to get vaccinated can, because the Euros stole all our vaccines, then once they started to trickle in, the self righteous thought that there was no urgency because lockdowns work. They obviously hadn't been reading their Lord Thesaurian.
    Disparities between groups in vaccine uptake have a variety of causes. However, polling from last year showed that African Americans were the most vaccine sceptical of the major racial groups in the US, despite being the most affected by C19:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  2. #3282
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Disparities between groups in vaccine uptake have a variety of causes. However, polling from last year showed that African Americans were the most vaccine sceptical of the major racial groups in the US, despite being the most affected by C19:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Again... It would be interesting to see if there is any correlation between vaccine uptake (and as you suggest, vaccine scepticism) with education, access to healthcare, income levels - broader wellbeing indicators.

    But you've also added another metric that would be interesting to look into for correlations... trust in local government (state level and down) information - seeing as it is state governments that have been responsible for leading the Covid response - and if we're looking specifically at the African American population - the largest states by African American population are in the south

    What I'm hinting at (as POV also showed us with a basic google search), is that this whole line of conversation is likely a whole lot more complicated than a single graph posted with little analysis or context, or the sarcasm shown by Infidel and Lord Thesaurian might suggest.

    *shrug*
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  3. #3283
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    It isn't like the African-American community in the United States hasn't been repeatedly lied to and deceived by the American medical establishment they're supposed to trust. The Tuskegee Experiment still haunts the black public conscious of America.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

  4. #3284

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorBatman999 View Post
    It isn't like the African-American community in the United States hasn't been repeatedly lied to and deceived by the American medical establishment they're supposed to trust. The Tuskegee Experiment still haunts the black public conscious of America.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study
    That is the weaksauce excuse given to present vaccine hesitancy among African Americans as part of the systemic racism narrative, when the reality probably has more to do with the same factors prevalent in anti-vax conspiracies overall. For whatever reason, the medical experiments excuse doesn’t apply to people of other racial backgrounds, even though the military routinely conducted dangerous medical experiments on soldiers in general for decades, and probably still does for all we know. These soldiers were often kept in the dark about what was being tested on them, nor given adequate care for the damage done to them.

    https://www.npr.org/2015/09/05/43755...ry-for-answers

    Back in the day, subjects were often separated by race (black, white, hispanic, asian, etc) to see if race was a factor in the given test.

    Civilians (usually orphans or mental patients, but also prisoners and the elderly) were also subjected to medical testing, including non consensual, deliberate syphillis infections.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethi..._United_States
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; July 27, 2021 at 10:30 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    No, we don't care about your libertarian "evidence".
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  5. #3285

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Again... It would be interesting to see if there is any correlation between vaccine uptake (and as you suggest, vaccine scepticism) with education, access to healthcare, income levels - broader wellbeing indicators.

    But you've also added another metric that would be interesting to look into for correlations... trust in local government (state level and down) information - seeing as it is state governments that have been responsible for leading the Covid response - and if we're looking specifically at the African American population - the largest states by African American population are in the south

    What I'm hinting at (as POV also showed us with a basic google search), is that this whole line of conversation is likely a whole lot more complicated than a single graph posted with little analysis or context, or the sarcasm shown by Infidel and Lord Thesaurian might suggest.

    *shrug*
    First, a lack of trust in institutional authority was the first explanation I offered for vaccine hesitancy; it isn’t an “added metric”. Second, the broader point is being missed here: the liberal willingness to reasonably analyse African American vaccine hesitancy/uptake is conspicuously absent when it comes to white conservatives. The issues of education, access, income and rational distrust suddenly cease to be relevant and are replaced with prejudice.
    Last edited by Cope; July 27, 2021 at 11:01 AM.



  6. #3286

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Apparently Foo Fighters show where only vaccinated people are allowed was cancelled because one of the fully vaccinated members got Covid, hopefully he recovers soon.
    The fact that one can get COVID while being fully vaccinated is pretty much the reason why significant amount of population doesn't see any point in getting it. Asking everyone to alpha-test a rushed experimental pharmaceutical product is one thing, but asking people to do that when it doesn't even work is beyond irresponsible.

  7. #3287

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Apparently Foo Fighters show where only vaccinated people are allowed was cancelled because one of the fully vaccinated members got Covid, hopefully he recovers soon.
    The fact that one can get COVID while being fully vaccinated is pretty much the reason why significant amount of population doesn't see any point in getting it. Asking everyone to alpha-test a rushed experimental pharmaceutical product is one thing, but asking people to do that when it doesn't even work is beyond irresponsible.
    The primary benefit of the vaccine is not in preventing infection but in dramatically reducing the probability of death or hospitalization as a consequence of infection. Bizarrely, both sceptics and alarmists damage perceptions of vaccine efficacy by fixating on/sensationalizing case numbers.



  8. #3288

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    No one ever suggested that one could not catch COVID19 while being fully vaccinated. Vaccines don't work like that. They, however, help you battle with the virus much more easily which is why fully vaccinated people require much much much less medical attention. This really isn't rocket science.
    The Armenian Issue
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  9. #3289
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Again... It would be interesting to see if there is any correlation between vaccine uptake (and as you suggest, vaccine scepticism) with education...
    Certainly-Education Is Now a Bigger Factor Than Race
    ---------
    ---------
    Jul 21, 2021 -Latest Data on COVID-19 Vaccinations by Race/Ethnicity | KFF

    As observed in prior weeks, Black and Hispanic people have received smaller shares of vaccinations compared to their shares of cases and compared to their shares of the total population in most states.
    White people received a higher share of vaccinations compared to their share of cases in most states reporting data.

    ...Together, these data show that, despite recent trends suggesting improving equity in COVID-19 vaccination patterns and a recent narrowing in the gap between vaccination rates for White and Hispanic people, disparities are persisting.

    Less than half of Black and Hispanic people have received at least one COVID-19 vaccine dose in nearly all states reporting data, including a number of states where less than a third have received a vaccine. These lower vaccination rates among Black and Hispanic people leave them at increased risk for coronavirus, particularly as the Delta variant spreads, potentially leading to widening disparities going forward and limiting the nation’s recovery.

    All reported data on vaccinations by race/ethnicity are available through our COVID-19 State Data and Policy Actions tracker and downloadable through our State Health Facts Online tables
    --
    Race/Ethnicity of People Receiving a COVID-19 Vaccine in the U.S. as of June 28, 2021




    Analysis
    As of July 19, 2021, CDC reported that race/ethnicity was known for 58% of people who had received at least one dose of the vaccine. Among this group, nearly two thirds were White (59%), 9% were Black, 16% were Hispanic, 6% were Asian, 1% were American Indian or Alaska Native, and <1% were Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander, while 8% reported multiple or other race. However, CDC data also show that recent vaccinations are reaching larger shares of Hispanic, Asian, and Black populations compared to overall vaccinations. Thirty percent of vaccines administered in the past 14 days have gone to Hispanic people, 6% to Asian people, and 14% to Black people (Figure 1). These recent patterns suggest a narrowing of racial gaps in vaccinations at the national level, particularly for Hispanic and Black people, who account for a larger share of recent vaccinations compared to their share of the total population (30% vs. 17% and 13% vs. 12%, respectively).
    ---
    According to the CDC, in the US, in certain regions and localities, vaccination posts are located in neighborhoods with predominantly white populations and the same imbalance is observed in the number of devices with Internet access, necessary for scheduling vaccination appointments
    The same thing happens in Brazil.Use google translate
    Brasil. Vacinação de pessoas brancas é duas vezes superior

    a "fila" para a vacina parece ser mais rápida para brancos do que para negros.
    Yes, that's systemic racism, Vacina e racismo: brancos são 2 vezes mais vacinados do ...

    Rough translation.
    ...Another element that caused such inequality in the vaccination process was the determination of what is or is not an essential service: outsourced workers in hospitals, from sectors such as cleaning and security, who are mostly black, were not selected as preferential to receive the vaccine.
    ...In sum, therefore, the broad scenario pointed out by the report shows in a comprehensive and effective sense the functioning of structural racism in the country, under the lens of a situation as urgent as the pandemic and vaccination.
    More,
    December, 2020
    4 out of 5 Africans would take a COVID-19 vaccine: Africa CDC survey.
    About 80% of Africans surveyed said they were willing to take a COVID-19 vaccine once it's publicly available and deemed safe and effective. Of those that said they would not take a vaccine, safety was the leading concern.
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 27, 2021 at 06:12 PM.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  10. #3290
    TheDarkKnight's Avatar Compliance will be rewarded
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I'm pretty sure that its "then whole restaurant clapped" situation with that anecdotal example tailored specifically to attack conservatives, but I'm still pretty amused at how most "peace and love" people tend to be the most hateful ones, especially when it comes to people that disagree with them.
    It's hateful to show someone the same sympathy they have showed on all those that suffered from a particular event before it became personal for them? That's news to me.

    I have tried to help them realize the seriousness of the situation, especially when they were saying it's not a big deal because it wasn't affecting them. They said this back in the middle of May of last year, right around the time we were about to cross 100,000 dead in America if I remember correctly. Hundreds of thousands of families were suffering when you account for the hospitalized victims at this time as well.

    So the indifference they are getting from me for their plight does not feel out of place, nor does it seem unjustified, when another half million dead still did not change her mind.

    Only when it affected her personally, this past week, 30 million infections and 620,000 deaths later, did she finally care.
    If you know anyone who participated in the attempted overthrow of the US election results in January, you have a duty as a patriot to report them.

    The difference between the average conservative with TDS and the Taliban is that I don't feel very threatened by the Taliban.

  11. #3291

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Italy says 99% of COVID deaths since Feb were not fully vaccinated
    Almost 99% people who have died of COVID-19 in Italy since February this year were not fully vaccinated, the National Health Institute (ISS) said on Tuesday.
    Nearly all COVID deaths in US are now among unvaccinated
    Nearly all COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. now are in people who weren’t vaccinated, a staggering demonstration of how effective the shots have been and an indication that deaths per day — now down to under 300 — could be practically zero if everyone eligible got the vaccine.

    An Associated Press analysis of available government data from May shows that “breakthrough” infections in fully vaccinated people accounted for fewer than 1,200 of more than 107,000 COVID-19 hospitalizations. That’s about 1.1%.

    And only about 150 of the more than 18,000 COVID-19 deaths in May were in fully vaccinated people. That translates to about 0.8%, or five deaths per day on average.
    Just to put things in perspective for those that love to talk about vaccinated people getting the infection and dying.
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  12. #3292

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    No one ever suggested that one could not catch COVID19 while being fully vaccinated. Vaccines don't work like that. They, however, help you battle with the virus much more easily which is why fully vaccinated people require much much much less medical attention. This really isn't rocket science.
    Covid denial/anti-vax has effectively become a big tent conspiracy theory. It's a sort of Rorschach test that conspiricists of all stripes can project their conspiracy theories onto, which is why it can so easily be made to accommodate other crank doctrines like stolen election, Q-anon, NWO, climate denial, 9-11 was an inside job, chemtrails, white genocide, great replacement, Ect. That there is little internal consistency within the movement is in fact it's greatest strength. The conspiracy is vague enough to appeal to a large enough number of people, but specific enough to steer them in the same direction when it matters.

  13. #3293

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    No one ever suggested that one could not catch COVID19 while being fully vaccinated. Vaccines don't work like that. They, however, help you battle with the virus much more easily which is why fully vaccinated people require much much much less medical attention. This really isn't rocket science.
    So I guess we can agree that requirements for vaccine at certain jobs or for certain goods and services should not be a thing then.

  14. #3294

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    So I guess we can agree that requirements for vaccine at certain jobs or for certain goods and services should not be a thing then.
    Why should we? It would be ridiculous to deny such a requirement. For a number of high risk jobs or situations you'd want to mitigate the risks. The vaccination does just that.
    The Armenian Issue
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    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  15. #3295
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    For a number of high risk jobs or situations you'd want to mitigate the risks. The vaccination does just that.
    Precisely.
    ---

    More,
    Racism, disease, and vaccine refusal: People of color are ...
    PLoS Biol 19(3): e3001167. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pbio.3001167. March 8, 2021
    ...conspiracy theories have always been fundamental to American politics, infiltrate medical beliefs, and affect health behaviors [8]. The news media’s focus on mistrust or seemingly ridiculous conspiracies, however, ignores the racist structures that shape economic, political, and social realities that lead to health disparities.
    Chicago provides a good example. Aware that equity ought to drive the vaccine roll-out, that city’s health department sought to provide local pharmacies with the vaccines. But that well-intentioned effort did not account for the fact that many of the city’s minority communities are “pharmacy deserts” or are populated not by the big chains but by independent stores that do not have the capacity to vaccinate right now.
    Similarly, when vaccination signups must be done online, lack of access to decent internet connections or even smartphones make it nearly impossible to do [9].
    Structural racism and vaccine access

    Harriet Washington didn’t name her book "Medical Aparteid" for nothing. For the American writer and ethicist, the overrepresentation of white people amongst recipients of the COVID vaccine in the US is, sadly, no surprise at all. She is critical of the narrative that assumes that people of color are at fault for this and stressed that the lower proportions of vaccines delivered to people of color means that they are not getting the vaccine, not that they are rejecting it.

    Time and internet access also affect how easy it is to get an appointment. Washington explained that she had the "luxury," which she said many other people of color don’t have, of being able to scroll through the many booking sites several times a day until she got a slot. The many headlines we see about African Americans not accepting the vaccine forget that there are all these hurdles, which you can’t get around if you’re an essential worker, in a low-status job without internet access.
    That's why for Washington, the differences in levels of vaccination are a reflection of structural inequalities and racism in society.
    Vaccine Hesitancy Is a Scapegoat for Structural Racism

    ...In fact, the blanket of mistrust that has been used to explain disparities in vaccine uptake is masking underlying fundamental inequalities in the system of vaccine distribution. Those of us who work in and with historically marginalized communities see strong evidence that equality does not equal equity.
    Equality means giving everyone the exact same resources, whereas equity involves distributing resources based on the needs of the recipients. Giving everyone equal access (eg, through online scheduling) has exacerbated inequities in vaccine uptake.
    When you prioritize equality over equity, you get the results we have seen throughout the COVID-19 pandemic. Disparities grow wider and wider when we consider unequal access to broadband and internet, computers, time to visit online vaccine distribution sites to find an appointment, and the ability to drive hours across county and state lines for an appointment.
    ...We need high-touch (ie, person-to-person) practices, particularly in Black and Brown communities, to bridge the digital divide. In communities with the highest risk of infection, local community health workers have demonstrated their expertise in getting more people tested and connecting them with the care they need.8
    This same trusted workforce needs to be mobilized to address current vaccine uptake disparities and institutionalized to continue meeting the needs of historically marginalized communities.
    ----

    Who's behind Australia's anti-lockdown protests? The German conspiracy group driving marches -The Guardian

    German-based Worldwide Demonstration helped coordinate rallies across Australia, with their message amplified by local anti-vaxx and ‘freedom’ influencers.
    German-based conspiracy group helped to drive a series of anti-lockdown protests across Australia which saw dozens of people arrested and hundreds fined after violent clashes with police. Coordinated by a loose network of conspiracy-laced groups, including some with links to the far right. While billed as peaceful protests, police said they were surprised by “the level of violence that people were prepared to use”.

    Prior to Saturday, word of the protests was spread through a collection of Telegram, Instagram and Facebook posts, often amplified by large anti-vaccination and conspiracy pages that have amassed followings in the tens of thousands during the pandemic. The latest rallies have highlighted the role of a German-based group, named Worldwide Demonstration, which has helped to coordinate protests across the globe, including in various Australian cities.

    The group appears to be run out of Germany by individuals calling themselves “Freie Bürger Kassel”, or the Free Citizens of Kassel. Its main Facebook page is administered by two Germans and a third individual in the United Kingdom. An investigation by Logically earlier this year revealed that Worldwide Demonstration was behind a wave of 129 coordinated events and protests in March. It also planned similar rallies in May. In Australia, a Melbourne-based group has helped promote protests throughout the pandemic. The Guardian has previously revealed Harrison McLean, a 24-year-old IT programmer from Wantirna South, had become a key organiser of the protests in that city. McLean has previously denied being involved in the far-right. “I am not Far-Right. I am a Libertarian Populist, and I support Freedom of Speech,” McLean posted under an online username, Dominic, in one forum.

    Like many of the organisers, those groups have a significant rightwing bent. In March the Guardian revealed McLean had outlined his plans to introduce his “freedom” group to more radical political views, while expressing deeply antisemitic opinions.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  16. #3296

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Why should we? It would be ridiculous to deny such a requirement. For a number of high risk jobs or situations you'd want to mitigate the risks. The vaccination does just that.
    But you just yourself admitted that point of vaccine is to prevent symptoms and make it easier to recover. So being vaccinated or not doesn't make a lick of difference, as per your own words, therefore there are no risks to mitigate.

  17. #3297

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    But you just yourself admitted that point of vaccine is to prevent symptoms and make it easier to recover. So being vaccinated or not doesn't make a lick of difference, as per your own words, therefore there are no risks to mitigate.
    Not sure if you're using any logic at all? It doesn't make a "lick of difference" to be vaccinated or not? It kinda does as you recover much easier and faster with a vaccine and it immensely eliminate the mortality of the virus itself. There are plenty of risks to mitigate; hospitalization and death. The vaccines work great against those.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  18. #3298

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Not sure if you're using any logic at all? It doesn't make a "lick of difference" to be vaccinated or not? It kinda does as you recover much easier and faster with a vaccine and it immensely eliminate the mortality of the virus itself. There are plenty of risks to mitigate; hospitalization and death. The vaccines work great against those.
    You yourself said vaccine is not preventing you from getting COVID and its just to make it easy to treat it. Therefore, its a matter of private doctor-patient relationship, therefore no vaccine requirements are needed for work or travel, since in the context of how that can be affected there is no difference as you yourself stated.

  19. #3299

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    You yourself said vaccine is not preventing you from getting COVID and its just to make it easy to treat it. Therefore, its a matter of private doctor-patient relationship, therefore no vaccine requirements are needed for work or travel, since in the context of how that can be affected there is no difference as you yourself stated.
    What an obtuse way to treat how vaccines work. There is no logic in what you're saying. Let's create a baseline. Do you think vaccines some how stop your body from acquiring the virus the vaccine is made against?
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  20. #3300

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    You yourself said vaccine is not preventing you from getting COVID and its just to make it easy to treat it. Therefore, its a matter of private doctor-patient relationship, therefore no vaccine requirements are needed for work or travel, since in the context of how that can be affected there is no difference as you yourself stated.


    Polio loves you.

    Dunno what it's like where you live. But we literally have to present physical doctor signed record of about 15 vaccinations(maybe more these days) to be admitted to school. That or, well, be immuno compromised.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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