Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

[Coughdrop addict]

If you are having second thoughts about getting vaccinated, do me a favor:

Go speak to every doctor you know. Not just your own doctor. Your friends, family, neighbors who are doctors. People on Facebook. Friends of friends on Facebook. Every doctor you can track down somehow. Speak to them all.

Ask them just one question: "Are you vaccinated?"

That should settle the question for you.

[alhoon]

You can discuss the effectiveness of the vaccine without personal remarks or negative insinuations about those that take it or not.

[antaeus]

Some few doctors disagree with Covid vaccination either on principle, or in certain circumstances. So a blanket "see your doctor" might not necessarily result in a vaccination appointment, and the 'you're an imbecile' implication of such a statement, might even encourage stubborn or erroneously principled people into doubling down.

[Coughdrop addict]

Some few doctors disagree with Covid vaccination either on principle, or in certain circumstances. So a blanket "see your doctor" might not necessarily result in a vaccination appointment, and the 'you're an imbecile' implication of such a statement, might even encourage stubborn or erroneously principled people into doubling down.

Yes there are a few doctors who somehow have degrees in spite of believing they can cure disease by waving flowers at it and only the Jewish Space Lizard conspiracy prevents the widespread recognition of their genius. No system is perfect, and idiots and frauds do very rarely slip through the cracks.

Lets remember that anti-vaxers opinions are utterly at odds with all medical and scientific evidence. So either they don’t know what you’re talking about, or the greatest minds alive today pale in capability to the people who think masks are a communist plot. I know where I’m putting my money.

[antaeus]

Lets remember that anti-vaxers opinions are utterly at odds with all medical and scientific evidence. So either they don’t know what you’re talking about, or the greatest minds alive today pale in capability to the people who think masks are a communist plot. I know where I’m putting my money.

Sure, this is all well and good. But people will go to war and die for stupid causes, and they'll kill anyone unfortunate enough to get in their way. Stubbornness and self-identified principles can be a dangerous combination - people will put aside all logic for them the moment they're against the wall, so where possible one should always seek to not put baby in a corner.

So I will always seek to understand the root causes behind someone making a choice on vaccines.

[Coughdrop addict]

Sure, this is all well and good. But people will go to war and die for stupid causes, and they'll kill anyone unfortunate enough to get in their way. Stubbornness and self-identified principles can be a dangerous combination - people will put aside all logic for them the moment they're against the wall, so where possible one should always seek to not put baby in a corner.

So I will always seek to understand the root causes behind someone making a choice on vaccines.

A noble idea.

But anti-vaxers are to medicine what flat Earthers are to science. They're indistinguishable mentally and about equally close to the truth. It's delusional, conspiratorial thinking, so trying to find logic behind it is futile. You can't fight lunacy with reason.

[antaeus]

A noble idea.

But anti-vaxers are to medicine what flat Earthers are to science. They're indistinguishable mentally and about equally close to the truth. It's delusional, conspiratorial thinking, so trying to find logic behind it is futile. You can't fight lunacy with reason.

And that, folks, is how we divide society.

[Coughdrop addict]

And that, folks, is how we divide society.

I'm perfectly okay being divided from delusional conspiracists. I don't really want to be part of the group that thinks all doctors the world over are trying to poison them because RT and RaceWarNow1488 on /Pol/ said so.

[PointOfViewGun]

Sure, this is all well and good. But people will go to war and die for stupid causes, and they'll kill anyone unfortunate enough to get in their way. Stubbornness and self-identified principles can be a dangerous combination - people will put aside all logic for them the moment they're against the wall, so where possible one should always seek to not put baby in a corner.

So I will always seek to understand the root causes behind someone making a choice on vaccines.

What if the root cause of their decision is that they made an uninformed or ill-informed decision not to get vaccinated a while and not willing to acknowledge that their reasoning or basis was faulty because they don't want to hurt their own perception of their own pride?

[antaeus]

What if the root cause of their decision is that they made an uninformed or ill-informed decision not to get vaccinated a while and not willing to acknowledge that their reasoning or basis was faulty because they don't want to hurt their own perception of their own pride?

That's kind of where I'm getting at. People double down on poor decisions because of pride and stubbornness, and the more you push at them, the harder they'll double down - to the point where some will give their lives double-downing on poor decisions, and take others with them.

In these circumstances, it is better to reach out and seek understanding with people. To understand their perspective, and allow them to change their own mind by giving their ego room to move. This doesn't mean allowing them to do what they want. It means not allowing the conversation to dissolve into disdain. Within the context of communicable disease, if you push someone to closing down on you, they're potentially going to seed disease to others. So it might be in your best interests to behave with a little humility.

I don't think that it is any coincidence that countries with low vaccination rates in spite of availability also have political gridlock, where debate has dissolved into disdainful principled contrarianism. Where as per Coughdrop's example, conversation has been reduced to simplified name calling.

[PointOfViewGun]

That's kind of where I'm getting at. People double down on poor decisions because of pride and stubbornness, and the more you push at them, the harder they'll double down - to the point where some will give their lives double-downing on poor decisions, and take others with them.

In these circumstances, it is better to reach out and seek understanding with people. To understand their perspective, and allow them to change their own mind by giving their ego room to move. This doesn't mean allowing them to do what they want. It means not allowing the conversation to dissolve into disdain. Within the context of communicable disease, if you push someone to closing down on you, they're potentially going to seed disease to others. So it might be in your best interests to behave with a little humility.

I don't think that it is any coincidence that countries with low vaccination rates in spite of availability also have political gridlock, where debate has dissolved into disdainful principled contrarianism. Where as per Coughdrop's example, conversation has been reduced to simplified name calling.

More often then not theır ego is unmovable or they're controlled by other factors you can not change. Often you need planetary alignment to have them see past their ego and change their mind. Unfortunately this is not a rare occurance.

[antaeus]

More often then not theır ego is unmovable or they're controlled by other factors you can not change. Often you need planetary alignment to have them see past their ego and change their mind. Unfortunately this is not a rare occurance.

And how do they get to that point in the first place?

[PointOfViewGun]

And how do they get to that point in the first place?

Often by themselves. They don't suddenly become defensive once they are told that they're wrong. They realize that they are long long before that as they can witness the evidence like you and I can. The more that they see that they're wrong the more they dig in.

[antaeus]

To a certain extent... planners and policy workers probably allow for a certain level of obstinance towards their processes. They can be open and reach out across the board, but there will always be those on the fringes. Before the pandemic, Wakefield still had anti-vax followers even after being thoroughly discredited. But they were a very small fringe, so could be largely sidelined and ignored.

I guess where the scenarios we're discussing become problematic, is when they occur across large segments of the population. In a pandemic, this has the potential to create a ghettoised response - which is where we have actually landed in reality. Where particular countries, states, provinces etc have responded markedly differently, creating both holes in societal defence, and gaps for Covid to rapidly evolve into.

Where it is significant and even majority demographics that are being obstinate, defensive and dug-in, that's when we need to be flexible in our approach. Because chances are, many of those people are disagreeing based on emotional alignment to their societal peers and leaders, and their values regarding the pandemic are not self-identified, but come as part of the package of ideas their demographic aligns with.

[TheDarkKnight]

At what point do you just say "There is no point in trying with this person (or these people)?", Antaeus? How many times can you "reach out" to understand their mindset before you realize their mindset is utter lunacy?

Like my future inlaws literally will not give a straight answer about their issues with vaccines. Every time you show them why their fear is wrong, they change to another issue. My fiance kept trying with them, eventually asking me to try. The conspiracy of the week happened to be "There's babies in the vaccine" and I sent them documentation, from a CONSERVATIVE state health agency, attesting that that is not the case.

They simply shifted the goal posts to some other nonsense. I didn't even read what they sent me in response, their so called "evidence", because I realized there is no point in reaching out to people who are deliberately making themselves unreachable. Luckily she eventually agreed with me as well, and she has not talked to them since June. We eventually found out from another family member that they won't even "expose" themselves to vaccinated people because they believe in the "shedding" nonsense. I wouldn't be surprised if they actually think they would become magnetic either.

I genuinely don't want them to, but at this point I will be indifferent if they learn the hard way. They are both in poor health and I doubt they would make it out without at least severe long COVID. There is no reaching them because their minds are lost to the death cult. And her parents are not the only people we care about that have locked themselves off from rationality. But we are beyond the point where we just throw up our hands and quit trying to understand their perspectives, because their perspectives are not tethered to reality.

At this point, I think we have tried enough. We have certainly been patient enough. Save who we can, those who genuinely are "just hesitant", and continue to reach out to get people vaccinated and boosted, if only to save the hospitals as much burden as possible. But everyone else who deliberately continues to drag us all down with their ignorance and malice? Let the scythe reap what it is owed.

Edit: I remembered what else I wanted to share. Coworker of mine who denied the severity of the virus at the beginning caught it in May of 2020. Apparently it ed up her liver to the point where she can no longer drink, and she now has to use an inhaler for her lungs. You can bet she is taking it seriously now.

98% survival does not tell the whole story, and the people who continue to stick to that battlecry of ignorance need to be called out more for the damage they continue to cause.

[antaeus]

If you've shifted to the 'contempt' stage of a debate or argument, which it sounds like you have, then you've become a part of the problem. You cant resolve a debate if one of the debaters is showing contempt. Your only option at that point is for you to take ownership of the debate and reassess your posture.

Your in-laws can't give you a straight answer because it is likely they aren't necessarily concerned specifically with vaccines. But rather they are concerned with a particular collection of ideas from a particular world view. Vaccines have found themselves in that assemblage of ideas, but they may not be the crux of their emotional worldview. They might be concerned with government overreach or big business or corrupt politicians. The vaccine issue has conflated with those because some of the voices they trust have conflated the issues. It is part of the collection now.

I have found amongst family, that moving the conversation forward is easiest done by separating the issues clearly and discovering the root concerns. Often they aren't vaccines or Covid.

This is easy enough with individuals. But as I noted above, it takes a concerted effort if it is entire demographics conflating issues simply because they're associated with people they don't like.

[PointOfViewGun]

What you're aiming at antaeus is not based in reality. It's a naively positive take of what we're dealing with. What you're suggesting simply doesn't work in a meaningful manner.

[TheDarkKnight]

If you've shifted to the 'contempt' stage of a debate or argument, which it sounds like you have, then you've become a part of the problem. You cant resolve a debate if one of the debaters is showing contempt. Your only option at that point is for you to take ownership of the debate and reassess your posture.

How do you not show contempt for the people who have not taken it seriously at any stage, though? Two years and nearly a million American deaths and they still argue about bare minimum restrictions and such? We're overwhelmed in my county and idiots are still arguing about masks and social distancing.

It's beyond contempt. It's disgust. The sociopathic indifference these people hold towards the impact this virus has had on the collective health of our country (and species, to be honest) is appalling to me. And while it may not help I have nothing left for them if they cannot and will not take steps towards realizing their errors. I'm only human. I have limits. I am a patient person because of the nature of my work, but two years is enough for us as a species to realize some people are unreachable. If they want to Heavens Gate themselves, let them. I just don't want their idiocy and ignorance to take us with them.

Where is that line for you? It must exist.

I have said it before....I would love for this pandemic to just end. I am exhausted, mentally and physically, from dealing with all the effects of it. If it were to just stop, and the most recent death from it was the last, I would be ecstatic. But in absence of that, I'm left with utter bemusement at the hubris as well as the shattering reality these people are confronting every day to the tune of 3,000 deaths. The vast vast majority of them being self-inflicted by the antivaxxers who thought, and continue to think, that they will be fine. At least right up until the ventilator or ECMO gives out on them.

They might be concerned with government overreach or big business or corrupt politicians.

They are not, though the examples I would give as to why are not the topic of the thread. Let's just say that they are very pro-government and fine with corrupt politicians if it is for the "right" reasons, and they have only gotten worse in the last year. And while they themselves would probably do the world a favor and refuse to go clog the hospital up if they got sick, their fellows are hypocrites who are doing just that.

[antaeus]

What you're aiming at antaeus is not based in reality. It's a naively positive take of what we're dealing with. What you're suggesting simply doesn't work in a meaningful manner.

Are you sure? In a vast majority of developed countries, a vast majority of eligible adults are vaccinated against Covid. This has happened because hesitancy hasn't become an identity signal of the followers one of the major political parties. It has remained fringe.

Those developed countries where the rate is lower are also the countries which have allowed their political discourse to reach that point of contempt, and where vaccine hesitancy has become intermingled with the identity signals of the followers of a particular major political party.

As I said, there are always fringe elements who likely find joy in being on the fringe. You'll never convince them of anything. But in a place like the US where vaccine hesitancy is more widespread than other developed countries, the only way to move that dial is to separate it from that package of identity markers, and the only way to do that, is to have genuine conversations - either at the national level (amongst politicians) or the local level (amongst peers).

I'll take that accusation of naivety thanks. Usually that means I'm pushing the right buttons.

[Coughdrop addict]

TheDarkKnight is right as usual.

Anti-vaxers are the reason we are still dealing with Covid. It’s mutating BECAUSE they would rather listen to Russian propaganda mouthpieces than actual experts trying to save their lives. If we’d gotten the vaccination rate high enough to reach herd immunity we wouldn’t be dealing with mutations and life would be back to normal.

It cannot be stressed enough. All of this we are still dealing with? It’s because of THEM. And they have the audacity to complain about the world THEY created that we all have to live in.