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Thread: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

  1. #2241
    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    As an interesting aside, and also perhaps something to take into consideration when comparing expected annual average death rates relative to 2020 deaths...

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...0graphicdetail

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    In summary and for those who don't paywall... There was no Influenza season in 2020 in the southern hemisphere thanks to lockdowns. Something for you up north to look forward to as the weather gets cold. It has lead to lower than usual death rates in countries which have managed to stay on top of Covid.
    Last edited by antaeus; September 14, 2020 at 06:52 PM. Reason: Et tu, Brute?
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  2. #2242

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Federal Judge Pennsylvania's pandemic restrictions unconstitutional:
    "The declaratory judgment says "(1) that the congregate gathering limits imposed by defendants' mitigation orders violate the right of assembly enshrined in the First Amendment; (2) that the stay-at-home and business closure components of defendants' orders violate the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment; and (3) that the business closure components of defendants' orders violate the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment."

    In his written opinion, Stickman noted that the Wolf administration's actions "were undertaken with the good intention of addressing a public health emergency," but that "even in an emergency, the authority of government is not unfettered."


    "The liberties protected by the Constitution are not fair-weather freedoms -- in place when times are good but able to be cast aside in times of trouble," Stickman wrote. "There is no question that this country has faced, and will face, emergencies of every sort. But the solution to a national crisis can never be permitted to supersede the commitment to individual liberty that stands as the foundation of the American experiment. The Constitution cannot accept the concept of a 'new normal' where the basic liberties of the people can be subordinated to open-ended emergency mitigation measures.


    "Rather, the Constitution sets certain lines that may not be crossed, even in an emergency. Actions taken by defendants crossed those lines. It is the duty of the court to declare those actions unconstitutional.""
    https://www.wtae.com/article/judge-r...onal/34013103#

  3. #2243
    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    "Rather, the Constitution sets certain lines that may not be crossed..."
    I guess that nullifies all those pesky amendments?
    Last edited by antaeus; September 15, 2020 at 12:31 AM. Reason: I best head for the door before the tarring and feathering starts...
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  4. #2244

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    I guess that nullifies all those pesky amendments?
    Obviously, except that the Amendments are part of the Constitution. And the judge cited both the First and Fourteenth...

  5. #2245
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    I guess that nullifies all those pesky amendments?


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  6. #2246
    antaeus's Avatar Whataboutery
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Obviously, except that the Amendments are part of the Constitution. And the judge cited both the First and Fourteenth...
    Yadda yadda... something about living document designed to be amended as required... yadda blah blah... lines that can't be crossed until the words are changed as required to allow it.... blah etc etc...

    Otherwise, What Cope said.
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  7. #2247
    Praefectus
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    ... There was no Influenza season in 2020 in the southern hemisphere thanks to lockdowns. Something for you up north to look forward to as the weather gets cold. It has lead to lower than usual death rates in countries which have managed to stay on top of Covid.
    That chimes exactly with my experience. Instead of about a week off with my own and family illnesses there's been zero days off with coughs etc.

    Mrs Cyclops has called a lot of this, I better ask her for the lottery numbers. Yeah I already know the answer will be "don't gamble".

    I wonder what synergies an unfettered flu season + COVID holds?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  8. #2248
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    The United States and the European Union have comparable population sizes, and Europe was hit hard earlier.
    September, 20: New Cases of COVID-19 In World Countries - Johns Hopkins

    In Europe,strong public health systems, a general willingness to wear masks and maintain social distance could explain the disparity. In the US, lack of a well coordinated, "communist" National Health Service makes the difference.

    ---
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I wonder what synergies an unfettered flu season + COVID holds?
    Bad synergies. Here,we keep saying that we should seriously think about the use of a ( compulsory) mask abroad across the country, and flu (mass) vaccination in October.
    --
    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    What you said (post 2229):
    "Excess mortality is a term that refers to the number of deaths from all causes during a crisis."
    What you left out:
    "above and beyond what we would have expected to see under ‘normal’ conditions"
    It's the same thing. During a crisis, "Above and beyond " is a redundancy. The term "Excess mortality " already means a difference, obviously.
    As I said, from all causes during a crisis : Covid deaths that were not diagnosed + deaths from no-covid causes. ( ex, excessive deaths from heart attacks, cancer diseases, etc. Many patients are afraid to hospital to treat emergency conditions, patients are postponing colonoscopy procedures and other screenings.)
    Last edited by Ludicus; September 21, 2020 at 05:18 AM.
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  9. #2249

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post


    It's the same thing. "Above and beyond" is a redundancy. The term "Excess mortality " already means a difference, obviously.
    Not a redundancy, an integral part of the definition of excess deaths/mortality.It becomes obvious, yet again (see e.g. earlier comments in this thread on the Spanish Flu where you cited articles that did not support your position as evidence of your position, and you citing fraudulent studies that had to be withdrawn, despite you supposedly being a professional in the field)) that you are intent on being dishonest in your posting.

    As I said, from all causes during a crisis
    Deaths from "all causes" over and above what would be normally expected for that period of time.
    Last edited by Infidel144; September 21, 2020 at 05:27 AM.

  10. #2250

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    The United States and the European Union have comparable population sizes, and Europe was hit hard earlier.
    September, 20: New Cases of COVID-19 In World Countries - Johns Hopkins

    In Europe,strong public health systems, a general willingness to wear masks and maintain social distance could explain the disparity. In the US, lack of a well coordinated, "communist" National Health Service makes the difference.
    Albania, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Greece, Hungry, Malta, Moldova, Montenegro, Netherlands, Poland, Romania, Slovokia, Slovenia, Spain, have higher infection rates at the moment than in March or April. Without new lock downs, the spread in many parts of Europe is in it's infancy.

    https://www.euronews.com/2020/09/21/...ntry-breakdown

  11. #2251
    Mithradates's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Well, in march people were expecting something like the Black Death or Ebola so they took it very seriously, remember the TP hoarding lol but the world didnt ended and by now people have run out of their paid holidays and their savings, they need to earn money, schools need to start again so the second wave is going to hit harder.
    Last edited by Mithradates; September 22, 2020 at 03:51 AM.

  12. #2252
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    In my opinion we should all go back to work. Vulnerable people, ie the elderly and infirm should be supported financially to stay at home until a vaccine is available if they wish. If they want to go out, their choice.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus

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    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.


  13. #2253

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by tgoodenow View Post
    Hungry


    shame on you sir, shame

  14. #2254
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Not a redundancy.
    Yes it is a redundancy.You have been talking about the sex of angels for long enough.Excess mortality during a crisis is never below what would all be expected for that period of time.It is always "above and beyond".

    Its called "Excess mortality" or "excess all-cause deaths". For example, in the US, epidemic period estimates for all ages in the 1915/1916 and 1916/1917 seasons were 2,100 and 2,800 excess all-cause deaths.


    Spanish Flu
    The first confirmed cases originated in the United States. Fort Riley or New York. Period. Anything else is speculation.

    citing fraudulent studies that had to be withdrawn
    You are blatantly lying.
    ---
    ---
    From the news.
    Stockholm faces local restrictions after 'worrying' infection signs

    COVID-19: Sweden considers unprecedented measures in in light of the increase in cases in Stockholm

    The downward trend has ended. If the curve continues to rise, the situation could become dangerous, ”said Stockholm health official Bjoern Eriksson.
    The head of public health in Sweden, Anders Tegnell, who has defended the position so far in the country, also acknowledged that if the upward trend continues, “local restrictions” will have to be considered in Stockholm.
    ------
    ------
    Quote Originally Posted by tgoodenow View Post
    have higher infection rates at the moment.. Without new lock downs, the spread in many parts of Europe is in it's infancy.
    Yes. Another option is the mandatory use of masks. Keeping economy shutdown is not an option, unless absolutely necessary.For example,Israel enters unpopular second Covid lockdown | World news ..

    Why? hospitals are reaching their saturation point.
    Last edited by Ludicus; September 22, 2020 at 05:57 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  15. #2255

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Yes it is a redundancy.You have been about the sex of angels for long enough.Excess mortality during a crisis is never below what would all be expected for that period of time.It is always "above and beyond".
    Nope, not a redundancy. At this point, you are just deceitfully trying to cover up for your error.
    I now begin to wonder if that was an attempt to cover up for Portugal, during a seven week period, having an excess mortality "3.5- to 5-fold higher than what can be explained by the official COVID-19 deaths."
    The first confirmed cases originated in the United States.Period.
    Excellent. Of course, that was not what you were arguing. Your previous argument was that the Spanish Flu started in the US.
    "It doesn't really matter, but the so-called Spanish's flu started from the US, Kansas, and nobody calls it the "American flu"."
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15890530
    And when I questioned you on that, noting other possible origins, you re-emphasized your unqualified assertion:
    "It's a fact.The 1918 epidemic started in Kansas, sailed with American troops across the Atlantic and spread across the world." https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15890588
    You are blatantly lying.
    Really? I could have sworn you cited this study:
    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...324-6/fulltext

    And that you cited it in this post:
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15916681

    And that I called you out on it in this post:
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15921962

    And that you acknowledged it in this post:
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15922008
    Last edited by Infidel144; September 23, 2020 at 06:50 AM.

  16. #2256
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Really? I could have sworn you cited this study:
    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...324-6/fulltext

    And that you cited it in this post:
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15916681

    And that I called you out on it in this post:
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15921962

    And that you acknowledged it in this post:
    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15922008
    Yes, and yes and yes. But you keep lying. Stop saying that I have quoted a retracted paper. You are acting in extreme bad faith, and you know what you are doing.

    Mehra MR, Desai SS, Ruschitzka F, Patel AN: Hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine with or without a macrolide for treatment of COVID-19: a multinational registry analysis. Lancet 2020, published: May 22. Full-text: https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(20)31180-6

    You know quite well that my post, quoting the article, was written on 23 May, a day after its publication, May 22

    You should be ashamed of your behavior.

    Chloroquine. May/June, the fast chronological timeline of the relevant events.

    May 22

    Publication of the Lancet article

    Next day, May 23, I quoted the paper.

    June 05


    Retraction
    ------
    Now, apologize.
    -----------
    -----------
    But let's go deeper into the topic,

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    June 06
    Would Lancet and NEJM retractions happen

    Neither does it mean that chloroquine and HCQ are now vindicated as COVID-19 therapy and prophylaxis drugs, quite the opposite. The rest of published research literature either clearly proves chloroquine drugs useless against the coronavirus.
    June 15 Letter revoking EUA for chloroquine phosphate and ... - FDA

    July 1, 2020 Update: summary of the FDA
    review of safety issues with the use of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine to treat hospitalized patients with COVID-19 is now available. This includes reports of serious heart rhythm problems and other safety issues, including blood and lymph system disorders, kidney injuries, and liver problems and failure.

    June 15, 2020 Update: Based on ongoing analysis and emerging scientific data, FDA has revoked the emergency use authorization (EUA) to use hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine to treat COVID-19 in certain hospitalized patients when a clinical trial is unavailable or participation is not feasible. We made this determination based on recent results from a large, randomized clinical trial in hospitalized patients that found these medicines showed no benefit for decreasing the likelihood of death or speeding recovery. This outcome was consistent with other new data, including those showing the suggested dosing for these medicines are unlikely to kill or inhibit the virus that causes COVID-19. As a result, we determined that the legal criteria for the EUA are no longer met. Please refer to the Revocation of the EUA Letter and FAQs on the Revocation of the EUA for Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate and Chloroquine Phosphate for more information.

    Frequently Asked Questions on the Revocation of the ... - FDA

    ------
    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Nope, not a redundancy. At this point...
    Don't be ridiculous, you are embarrassing yourself. At this point, you are trolling. The term excess mortality is the sole, necessary and sufficient term used in epidemiological studies, as I have showed you yesterday. It is redundant to write "deviation in mortality from the expected level". Read some titles, "Excess mortality estimate during the Covid Pandemic"; "Excess mortality in type 1 Diabetes"." etc, ad nausea. Are you trying to teach me?


    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Of course, that was not what you were arguing. Your previous argument was that the Spanish Flu started in the US
    You are wrong, it is precisely the same argument.Red carefully, from an epidemiological point of view, it's precisely the same thing. And again, everything else is pure speculation (the Orient/Chinese or European origin).
    Yes, I said that the 1918 epidemic started in Kansas, sailed with American troops across the Atlantic and spread across the world, according to exhaustive epidemiological studies. Regarding the epidemiological studies, you can be sure that I will come back to you later (it's dinner time).
    -----
    As I said, I would not never call the 1918 virus as the American virus, that's right. My dear far right Trump's lover, what enrages you is the fact that the scientific community will never call the coronavirus as the Chinese virus.

    In the US, dr Fauci is the voice of reason. Interview with Fauci, Business Insider,

    Q: You have not said China virus. (Trump frequently calls the cause of the spreading illness known as coronavirus disease 2019 a “China virus” or a “Chinese virus.”)
    A: Ever.
    Q: And you never will, will you?
    A: No.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  17. #2257

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Yes, and yes and yes. But you keep lying. Stop saying that I have quoted a retracted paper. You are acting in extreme bad faith, and you know what you are doing.
    Note that what I said is you cited a fraudulent paper that "had to be withdrawn"
    Mehra MR, Desai SS, Ruschitzka F, Patel AN: Hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine with or without a macrolide for treatment of COVID-19: a multinational registry analysis. Lancet 2020, published: May 22. Full-text: https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(20)31180-6
    You know quite well that my post, quoting the article, was written on 23 May, a day after its publication, May 22
    You should be ashamed of your behavior.
    Are you ashamed about citing a fraudulent paper that had to be withdrawn?
    If you had not been called on it, would you have ever acknowledged it?
    Chloroquine. May/June, the fast chronological timeline of the relevant events.
    May 22
    Publication of the Lancet article
    Next day, May 23, I quoted the paper.
    Quite. You immediately jumped on it (despite being a professional in the field, supposedly), because it suited your ill-conceived bias.
    June 05
    Retraction
    ------
    Now, apologize.
    No apologies. This is exactly as I stated. You cited that fraudulent study "that had to be withdrawn".
    -----------
    But let's go deeper into the topic,
    No. Anything you say on the topic is coloured by your obvious irrational bias due to Trump touting the possible benefits of hydroxychloroquine.
    Don't be ridiculous, you are embarrassing yourself. At this point, you are trolling.
    Projection.
    The term excess mortality is the sole, necessary and sufficient term used in epidemiological studies, as I have showed you yesterday. It is redundant to write "deviation in mortality from the expected level". Read some titles, "Excess mortality estimate during the Covid Pandemic"; "Excess mortality in type 1 Diabetes"." etc, ad nausea. Are you trying to teach me?
    It is not redundant when a "definition" is being provided.
    Which is what you did. Post 2229 you stated "Excess mortality is a term that refers to the number of deaths from all causes during a crisis."
    And leaving out the "above and beyond what we would have expected to see under ‘normal’ conditions".
    There is a fundamental difference between "Excess mortality is a term that refers to the number of deaths from all causes during a crisis." and 'Excess mortality is a term that refers to the number of deaths from all causes during a crisis above and beyond what we would have expected to see under ‘normal’ conditions'.
    But then you also claim there is no difference between a hypothesis and a fact (post 862).
    You are wrong, it is precisely the same argument.Red carefully, from an epidemiological point of view, it's precisely the same thing. And again, everything else is pure speculation (the Orient/Chinese or European origin).
    Had you actually intended that you would have acknowledged and stated that in the ensuing discourse. You did not. You doubled and redoubled down on your assertion...
    Yes, I said that the 1918 epidemic started in Kansas, sailed with American troops across the Atlantic and spread across the world, according to exhaustive epidemiological studies. Regarding the epidemiological studies, you can be sure that I will come back to you later (it's dinner time).
    ... which you seem to be doing here again.
    As I quoted previously:
    "“We don't know and will probably never know,” John M. Barry, the author of "The Great Influenza," a history of the 1918 flu, told USA TODAY. In his book, Barry advanced the theory that the virus began in rural Kansas, but “work since then has caused me to back away from that. The best evidence points to China. Other theories suggest France or Vietnam.”"

    But then as someone who thinks there is no difference between a hypothesis and a fact,
    and thinks that these definitions are the same:
    "Excess mortality is a term that refers to the number of deaths from all causes during a crisis."
    and
    'Excess mortality is a term that refers to the number of deaths from all causes during a crisis above and beyond what we would have expected to see under ‘normal’ conditions'.
    ... it would not be a surprise to see you now claim that you never tried to arguing that the Spanish flu began in Kansas and actually meant something different...

    -----
    As I said, I would not never call the 1918 virus as the American virus, that's right. My dear far right Trump's lover, what enrages you is the fact that the scientific community will never call the coronavirus as the Chinese virus.
    Uh... what?
    LOL
    Looks like more projection.
    But, as long as you want to go there, while you try and cover for your beloved communazis of the CCP, what do you call German measles, West Nile virus and Ebola virus?

    Edit:
    Fixed a quote tag.
    Last edited by Infidel144; September 24, 2020 at 04:13 PM.

  18. #2258
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    you cited a fraudulent paper that " that had to be withdrawn"
    "Had to be withdrawn?" do you have divinatory powers? I read the paper on March 23, you also read the paper, the article was published on 22 March. I want you to answer me truthfully and sincerely, in a simple and clear way: On March 23, how could you know that the paper "had to be withdrawn?". Tell me something I don't know.
    Remember, I gave you the opportunity to apologize. I'm waiting. My ignore list is still empty, after all these years.
    In this case, there is nothing ideologically here. Sadly, it seems that chlorine doesn't work. It is a splendid and almost essential drug for some diseases.
    It goes without a saying that millions of people, including the Presidents of the US and Brazil, falsely claimed that the chloroquine is a cure to the virus. The social pressure is terrible. In Brazil, unfavorable results from a chloroquine clinical trial led to death threats and animosity towards researchers in Brazil. Death threats after a trial on chloroquine for COVID-19

    If I'm not wrong, the NIH stopped their chloroquine studies, and according to the American CDC and prevention, there is no specific antiviral treatment to the virus. Current data shows that the drug does not help people with moderate disease nor reduce deaths among hospitalized patients. And again, Frequently Asked Questions on the Revocation of the of the Emergency Use Authorization for Hydroxychloroquine... - FDA

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Post 2229 you stated "Excess mortality is a term that refers to the number of deaths from all causes during a crisis."
    And leaving out the "above and beyond what we would have expected to see under ‘normal’ conditions".
    In my immediate answer, in order to make it clear, I told you that I was emphasizing the all causes: (all causes= covid identified, covid non identified, and lack of access to healthcare), as underlined in that post #2237. I quote,
    As I said, from all causes. Excess mortality during the Coronavirus pandemic (COVID-19 ...

    Excess mortality is a term used in epidemiology and public health that refers to the number of deaths from all causes during a crisis above and beyond what we would have expected to see under ‘normal’ conditions
    And it's there, crystal clear, what you wanted to hear, to make you happy: "during a crisis above and beyond what we would expect".
    I was not disagreeing with you. But sadly, since then, nothing stopped your obsessive, unnecessary, compulsive posts. Once again, the term excess mortality is self-defining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    But then you also claim there is no difference between a hypothesis and a fact
    I said "it's a fact", that's right . The COVID 19 was born in China, is it a fact or a theory? for me, it's a fact. I think you don't have you have a problem with that. Theories become facts when they are well supported.
    As promised yesterday. Almost everything is debatable, but if the virus did not originate in the US, no one knows how it arrived there.

    Serious epidemiological contemporary research and evidence points to the US as the site of origin of the 1918 pandemic. Read the herculean epidemiological research and encyclopedic masterwork, long read, 300 pages. The 1918 pandemic emerged in the spring of 1918 from the central United States. Vaughn, W. T. (1921) Influenza: An Epidemiological Study (Am. J. Hyg., Baltimore), Monograph 1. http://hdl.handle.net/2027/spo.0980flu.0016.890

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    John Barry: the best evidence points to China
    Show me his epidemiological studies, his published work.The last thing he wrote in 2004 was " If the virus did not originate in Haskell, there is no good explanation for how it arrived there"

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    your beloved communazis of the CCP,
    Since I'm not communist, I never voted Communist. But I'm done with Trump's socialism for the rich. If I had to choose between Trump and Communists, I would choose to live in a foreign, democratic country. That said, there is a difference- I have one or two communist friends. Far right isn't my cup of tea. Ideologically speaking the far right is repulsive. Nothing personal here.

    I hope our discussion has came to an end. But first, tell me: on March 23, how could you know that the paper "had to be withdrawn?" that's the answer I'm waiting for.
    ----
    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    communazis
    That's an oxymoron. I think you are "clearly confused".
    Last edited by Ludicus; September 24, 2020 at 03:18 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  19. #2259

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    "Had to be withdrawn?" do you have divinatory powers? I read the paper on March 23, you also read the paper, the article was published on 22 March. I want you to answer me truthfully and sincerely, in a simple and clear way: On March 23, how could you know that the paper "had to be withdrawn?". Tell me something I don't know.
    LOL
    Hard for you to read something on March 22nd that was not published until May...
    Remember, I gave you the opportunity to apologize. I'm waiting. My ignore list is still empty, after all these years.
    Nope. Keep waiting.
    Are you ashamed about citing a fraudulent paper that had to be withdrawn?
    If you had not been called on it, would you have ever acknowledged it?
    In this case, there is nothing ideologically here. Sadly, it seems that chlorine doesn't work. It is a splendid and almost essential drug for some diseases.
    https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeati...pinion-1519535
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "As professor of epidemiology at Yale School of Public Health, I have authored over 300 peer-reviewed publications and currently hold senior positions on the editorial boards of several leading journals. I am usually accustomed to advocating for positions within the mainstream of medicine, so have been flummoxed to find that, in the midst of a crisis, I am fighting for a treatment that the data fully support but which, for reasons having nothing to do with a correct understanding of the science, has been pushed to the sidelines. As a result, tens of thousands of patients with COVID-19 are dying unnecessarily. Fortunately, the situation can be reversed easily and quickly.
    I am referring, of course, to the medication hydroxychloroquine. When this inexpensive oral medication is given very early in the course of illness, before the virus has had time to multiply beyond control, it has shown to be highly effective, especially when given in combination with the antibiotics azithromycin or doxycycline and the nutritional supplement zinc."



    In my immediate answer, in order to make it clear, I told you that I was emphasizing the all causes: (all causes= covid identified, covid non identified, and lack of access to healthcare), as underlined in that post #2237. I quote,
    As I said, from all causes. Excess mortality during the Coronavirus pandemic (COVID-19 ...


    Excess mortality is a term used in epidemiology and public health that refers to the number of deaths from all causes during a crisis above and beyond what we would have expected to see under ‘normal’ conditions
    Nope. Your immediate "answer" was in post 2229 "Excess mortality is a term that refers to the number of deaths from all causes during a crisis."
    And it's there, crystal clear, what you wanted to hear, to make you happy: "during a crisis above and beyond what we would expect".
    I was not disagreeing with you. But sadly, since then, nothing stopped your obsessive, unnecessary, compulsive posts. Once again, the term excess mortality is self-defining.
    If you were not disagreeing, then you should have simply agreed and acknowledged that when you provided a definition, for a term you claim is self-defining, you should have provided the full definition.
    Of course there was no need at all to provide any sort of definition, since it is "self-defining"...
    And was not an actual response to what I provided:
    "The excess mortality occurred between March 1 and April 22 was 3.5- to 5-fold higher than what can be explained by the official COVID-19 deaths."
    I said "it's a fact", that's right . The COVID 19 was born in China, is it a fact or a theory? for me, it's a fact. I think you don't have you have a problem with that. Theories become facts when they are well supported.
    Are you back to claiming that there is no difference between 'fact' and 'hypothesis'?
    As promised yesterday. Almost everything is debatable, but if the virus did not originate in the US, no one knows how it arrived there.
    Serious epidemiological contemporary research and evidence points to the US as the site of origin of the 1918 pandemic. Read the herculean epidemiological research and encyclopedic masterwork, long read, 300 pages. The 1918 pandemic emerged in the spring of 1918 from the central United States. Vaughn, W. T. (1921) Influenza: An Epidemiological Study (Am. J. Hyg., Baltimore), Monograph 1. http://hdl.handle.net/2027/spo.0980flu.0016.890
    Are you back to making bald statements of fact as to the where the Spanish Flu originated?
    Something, as I recall, even your sources did not do.
    "The most plausible explanation is that the 1918–19 influenza virus, or a closely related precursor, had originated in China, so that many Chinese had prior exposure and hence some immunity. It is thus conceivable that Chinese workers en route to France would have carried the virus with them, leading to the pandemic."
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...V6YaQ59lE1LN3Y
    Or from National Geographic:
    "Historian Mark Humphries of Canada's Memorial University of Newfoundland says that newly unearthed records confirm that one of the side stories of the war—the mobilization of 96,000 Chinese laborers to work behind the British and French lines on World War I's Western Front—may have been the source of the pandemic."
    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/n...cience-health/
    Show me his epidemiological studies, his published work.The last thing he wrote in 2004 was " If the virus did not originate in Haskell, there is no good explanation for how it arrived there"
    No. I had already, in our prior discourse (post 865), linked to this article:
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...lu/2895617001/
    Are you going to address his more recent assertion, where he says his veiw has changed? Or just pretend it does not exist?
    And note, in that post I address one (well several, but this one may be more at the point) of the sources you use:
    https://academic.oup.com/emph/articl...290/eoy024.pdf
    "The first wave appeared in the spring of 1918, in a well-documented outbreak at a military base in the farm state of Kansas."
    Well, it seems to be generally acknowledged that that is where it was first reported, as I said in my initial post, IIRC.
    It does however note in the Modern Reasearch section:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "This process can connect Asia to North America. How werethese areas linked? One known method is the transport of live
    swine globally, a trade that facilitated the emergence of the H1N1
    outbreak in 2009 [15, 16]. Another is the flight of wild birds. It has
    recently been demonstrated that an avian flu discovered in Korea
    traveled via wild waterfowl into the United States. Asian waterfowl
    fly north to summer in the arctic and mix with North American
    birds. These migration patterns create a broad passageway that
    connects east Asian avian viruses to North America [17]. The transition of novel influenza antigens to the United states did not
    require the movement of humans or other mammals from Asia
    or elsewhere. There was a children’s ditty popular in 1918. ‘I had a
    little bird, its name was Enza. I opened the window and in flew
    Enza’. Exactly? [5]"

    Since I'm not communist, I never voted Communist. But I'm done with Trump's socialism for the rich. If I had to choose between Trump and Communists, I would choose to live in a foreign, democratic country. That said, there is a difference- I have one or two communist friends. Far right isn't my cup of tea. Ideologically speaking the far right is repulsive. Nothing personal here.
    So, you wish to continue this. So I take it you are going to continue to proved cover for you communzi buddies in the CCP...
    I have a commie friend too, she is a revolutionary marxist. She wants a Soviet/Maoist style revolution.
    To be clear, without the firing squads.
    She wants that part to be French Revolution style, i.e. guillotines for the bourgeoisie etc.
    I'm not joking...


    I hope our discussion has came to an end.
    I'm sure you know how to end it.
    But first, tell me: on March 23, how could you know that the paper "had to be withdrawn?" that's the answer I'm waiting for.
    May. I could not know it would have to be withdrawn (though I had seen or heard some criticisms of it just after it was released). But I am not a professional in the field, nor did I immediately jump on it as a great find. Unlike you.
    I'm still waiting for you to answer if you (a professional in the field) are embarrassed by providing a fraudulent study, and if I had not called you out on it, would you have ever acknowledged that it was withdrawn.
    That's an oxymoron. I think you are "clearly confused".
    Hmmm.... lets see, totalitarian ideologies that emphasize the collective....
    Last edited by Infidel144; September 24, 2020 at 05:17 PM.

  20. #2260
    Ukiah's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    https://www.the-sun.com/news/1525439...d-last-week-2/
    Earlier this week it was revealed that one in four patients admitted to Preston hospital trusts during the pandemic had died from the virus.

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