Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

It is reckless to force these particular vaccines on people, or else face social isolation or legal punishment.

No, the plans of my government are absolutely legal and constitutional, not reckless. What reckless is, is that some few think their freedom of being stupid and irrational is more worth than the rights of a happy life and of health of the majority.

I KNOW a person, who died on covid, i give a , if you fear to become impotent by the vaccine. I want a normal life in the future again.

How do you people think tuberculose and diphteria could be extincted in western countries?

More or less by enforced vaccinations in school age!

And the first tuberculose vaccination failed horrible 1930 in Bremen, as 200 babys died because of the vaccine had been contaminated with living bacterias.

You want no vaccine? Fine immigrate to another country, you are free to leave!

Edit:

And to give the people a impression of the antivaxxers is germany:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Three police men rescuing the Reichstag of becoming the Capitol 2.0 in Summer.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[nhytgbvfeco2]

You kinda just did care a post ago. People these days abandon their arguments so damn fast...

Literally all I said was that it's incomparable. Because it is. Are you really going to keep pretending that being unable to get higher education in a country is the same as not being able to live in a country?

Telling a Texan that they can go to a university outside of Texas if they don't want to get vaccinated is not exactly a good argument. It's really laughable. You know what? If USA makes COVID19 vaccination mandatory you can always leave for a different country that doesn't. How about that?

You need to have another passport to move to another country, which isn't always possible. You're still in the same country if you move from Texas to Oklahoma. Really not a good comparison.
The bigger point, however, was that getting higher education isn't a necessity, but a privilige. Living is a necessity, not a privilige. There's no comparison here.

Mandatory vaccination is neither tyrannical nor a violation of human rights.

It is both of those, and sets an extremely dangerous precedent where government can force you to put something into your body without your consent. If you don't see how governments might be able to abuse that, well.. lets just say that you are severely lacking in imagination.

If it is then there are endless other things that we take for granted that could fall in that category.

Probably.

There is little sense in hollowing out ideals when its convenient. If your opinion about the value of a vaccine is determined by whether its enforced or not then that kind of opinion has little value.

Say you eat cereal every day, of your own volition. One day someone comes to your house, says he's from the government, points a gun to your head and tells you to eat your cereal. I would say that that's somewhat odd, and I'm now unsure about eating that cereal, that for some reason the government REALLY wants me to eat.

It seems to me that the right's hatred and suspicion of government power is not only dependent on what letter the President has next to his name, but on whether it is serving them exclusively or serving everyone.

I'm suspicious of anything any government forces me to do, regardless of who happens to be in power. I believe the government should have as little say as possible in a persons day to day life.

a serious disease

A glorified flu. And just like people can weigh the risks and choose not to be vaccinated for the flu, this should be the case here as well.

[Coughdrop addict]

Yes, the government CAN tell you what to do or not to do when it comes to the common good. That's why we have governments instead of law of the jungle. Whether it's a tribe's council of elders or a modern nation's democracy, people make governments to direct communal effort towards undertakings that benefit everyone, like the building of roads and a justice system.

For example the government can tell you that you have to feed your child, send them to school, and yes, get them vaccinated. They can tell you that you can't beat them, sell them into slavery, or abandon them in the woods to die. It has these powers because we the people decided there was a need for them.

And glorified flu? The flu doesn't kill over 700K in a year.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Epilog about ruthless german future government:

The german Federal Constitutional Court decided yesterday, that the complete lockdown of the country was constitutional.

So obviously the life and health of many is more important than the spleens and even the life of a few.

[PointOfViewGun]

Literally all I said was that it's incomparable. Because it is. Are you really going to keep pretending that being unable to get higher education in a country is the same as not being able to live in a country?
You need to have another passport to move to another country, which isn't always possible. You're still in the same country if you move from Texas to Oklahoma. Really not a good comparison.
The bigger point, however, was that getting higher education isn't a necessity, but a privilige. Living is a necessity, not a privilige. There's no comparison here.
It is both of those, and sets an extremely dangerous precedent where government can force you to put something into your body without your consent. If you don't see how governments might be able to abuse that, well.. lets just say that you are severely lacking in imagination.
Probably.
Say you eat cereal every day, of your own volition. One day someone comes to your house, says he's from the government, points a gun to your head and tells you to eat your cereal. I would say that that's somewhat odd, and I'm now unsure about eating that cereal, that for some reason the government REALLY wants me to eat.

You didn't really say that, but sure. Texas doesn't just require vaccination for higher education. In fact, the vaccination requirement for lower levels is much higher. Did you not even try to Google that? Sigh...

You should also go easy on the theatrics. Nobody is jumping out of the blue with a gun and forcing people to get vaccinated against COVID19.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Yes, the government CAN tell you what to do or not to do when it comes to the common good. That's why we have governments instead of law of the jungle. Whether it's a tribe's council of elders or a modern nation's democracy, people make governments to direct communal effort towards undertakings that benefit everyone, like the building of roads and a justice system.

It can stop people from harming you, actively. It cannot stop you from leading an unhealthy lifestyle.

For example the government can tell you that you have to feed your child,

Yes, you can't actively starve to death someone you're responsible for.

send them to school,

Not everywhere, some countries allow for homeschooling.

and yes, get them vaccinated.

Again, not everywhere.

They can tell you that you can't beat them, sell them into slavery, or abandon them in the woods to die. It has these powers because we the people decided there was a need for them.

Yes, you can't actively cause someone bodily harm. This isn't the same as getting a vaccine.

And glorified flu? The flu doesn't kill over 700K in a year.

No, not 700k, but pretty darn close, with up to 650k in 2017.
However, I believe the 700k statistic you've provided is specifically for the USA (don't know why you chose a US only stat). Mortality is indeed higher, but that's in large part also thanks to the higher spread (and also applying very liberally the cause of death).

You didn't really say that, but sure.

"Nooo you didn't say that!"
*quotes me saying exactly that*

Texas doesn't just require vaccination for higher education. In fact, the vaccination requirement for lower levels is much higher. Did you not even try to Google that? Sigh...

Do you get that you're comparign a privilige to a necessity and that there's really no comparison here?
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Texas allows for homeschooling, meaning that once again there's an alternative. C'mon, you can do better than that.

You should also go easy on the theatrics. Nobody is jumping out of the blue with a gun and forcing people to get vaccinated against COVID19.

No, you're right. First they'll be fined, then jailed either if they don't pay or at some point for "repeated offence". The gun will only come out if they refuse to go to jail.

[PointOfViewGun]

"Nooo you didn't say that!"
*quotes me saying exactly that*
Do you get that you're comparign a privilige to a necessity and that there's really no comparison here?
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but Texas allows for homeschooling, meaning that once again there's an alternative. C'mon, you can do better than that.
No, you're right. First they'll be fined, then jailed either if they don't pay or at some point for "repeated offence". The gun will only come out if they refuse to go to jail.

Sigh... You know I will be tedious about this and not let it fly as you wish, so why bother?

What you said:

You can avoid going to university, or go to a different one. It is a privilige, not necessity. This isn't nearly the same thing.

What you later claimed you said:

Literally all I said was that it's incomparable.

You want me to ignore 75% of what you said and only focus on the last sentence as if that's "literally" all you said. You didn't. You gotta accept such simple facts.

Education is not a privilege. It's quite concerning that people are willing to abandon basic rights so easily to argue for a point out of convenience.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Article 26
Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

Again, nobody is jumping out of the blue and forcing everyone to get vaccinated. The process is similar to those for previous vaccinations that your lot didn't rebel against. That makes the argument of principle opposition to mandatory vaccination moot.

[sumskilz]

Texas doesn't just require vaccination for higher education. In fact, the vaccination requirement for lower levels is much higher. Did you not even try to Google that? Sigh...

I assume you didn't read the exemptions section:

Texas law allows... parents/guardians to choose an exemption from immunization requirements for reasons of conscience, including a religious belief.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Sigh... You know I will be tedious about this and not let it fly as you wish, so why bother?

What you said:

What you later claimed you said:


You want me to ignore 75% of what you said and only focus on the last sentence as if that's "literally" all you said. You didn't. You gotta accept such simple facts.

It is, quite literally, what I've said. Not word by word, but the meaning. I explained why it's not the same, and then stated that it's not the same.

Education is not a privilege. It's quite concerning that people are willing to abandon basic rights so easily to argue for a point out of convenience.

I didn't mean privilige as in privilige vs right, I meant privilige in the sense that you can live without it (without breaking any law in the process). You cannot live without.. living.
And in terms of rights, equal access to higher education based on merit is a right, actually recieving higher education is not.

Again, nobody is jumping out of the blue and forcing everyone to get vaccinated.

The Austrians announced that they will, the German chancellor expressed support for the same. More countries, I'm sure, will follow.

The process is similar to those for previous vaccinations that your lot didn't rebel against. That makes the argument of principle opposition to mandatory vaccination moot.

No, it is not.

[sumskilz]

And in terms of rights, equal access to higher education based on merit is a right, actually recieving higher education is not.

Senate Bill 62 he cited has the same exemption anyway:

A student to whom this section applies or a parent or guardian of the student is not required to comply with Subsection (c) if the student or a parent or guardian of the student submits to the institution... an affidavit signed by the student stating that the student declines the vaccination for bacterial meningitis for reasons of conscience...

Regarding Texas more generally:

In Texas, public universities can’t require a vaccination, but private ones can.

Bigger picture:

Despite vaccination requirements at hundreds of colleges and universities for returning students, not everyone will end up getting the shots: Most of these schools are providing various exemptions to the rule, ranging from medical to religious and even philosophical reasons.

[PointOfViewGun]

I assume you didn't read the exemptions section:

Exceptions do not set the rule.

It is, quite literally, what I've said. Not word by word, but the meaning. I explained why it's not the same, and then stated that it's not the same.
I didn't mean privilige as in privilige vs right, I meant privilige in the sense that you can live without it (without breaking any law in the process). You cannot live without.. living.
And in terms of rights, equal access to higher education based on merit is a right, actually recieving higher education is not.
The Austrians announced that they will, the German chancellor expressed support for the same. More countries, I'm sure, will follow.
No, it is not.

Not in the context you were commenting in, nope. You cared about having options in Texas, and then pufff, you didn't. Yes, the hypocrisy of your arguments are at that fundamental level of fault... Are you saying that you are OK with any kind of mandate if its not, even by about 0.0000001%, deadly? That's one slippery slope to stand on. What you're missing here is that not being able to get a proper education is only a side effect. We're actually talking about mandates for many other vaccines in existence and you are talking about how you can live without education. What an amazing level of argumentation standards you're using there.

Again, nope, nothing the Austrian or Germans want to do today is akin to your description of hysteria. You only have a position to defend if you distort it.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

I'm really struggling, where to post this, but as its high likely caused by the Covid19 pandemy, probably here:

Tel Aviv is toppling Paris from the 1.Place of World most expensive cities:

Tel Aviv overtakes Paris to become world’s most expensive city - Economist Intelligence Unit (eiu.com)

But isn't Tel Aviv not also an IT Hub?

So i think, its not only covid19 caused.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Not in the context you were commenting in, nope. You cared about having options in Texas, and then pufff, you didn't.

Yes, in the context I was commenting in. I really couldn't care less about whether or not you can go to university without a meningitis vaccine in Texas. That isn't the topic, and isn't relevant, because as I've said multiple times now, it's incomparable.

Yes, the hypocrisy of your arguments are at that fundamental level of fault... Are you saying that you are OK with any kind of mandate if its not, even by about 0.0000001%, deadly? That's one slippery slope to stand on.

Where did I say that I'm okay with a mandate? Quote me on that one please.

What you're missing here is that not being able to get a proper education is only a side effect. We're actually talking about mandates for many other vaccines in existence and you are talking about how you can live without education. What an amazing level of argumentation standards you're using there.

We're talking about mandatory vaccines just to live in a country. You're, for some reason, comparing it to vaccines being required to go to universities in Texas (although as mentioned, with the exemptions provided, there's basically no mandate). It's somewhat mind boggling, but it is what it is.

Again, nope, nothing the Austrian or Germans want to do today is akin to your description of hysteria. You only have a position to defend if you distort it.

Austria will make the vaccine mandatory. What happens if you don't comply with a mandate?

I'm really struggling, where to post this, but as its high likely caused by the Covid19 pandemy, probably here:

Tel Aviv is toppling Paris from the 1.Place of World most expensive cities:

Tel Aviv overtakes Paris to become world’s most expensive city - Economist Intelligence Unit (eiu.com)

But isn't Tel Aviv not also an IT Hub?

So i think, its not only covid19 caused.

Nah, nothing at all to do with Covid. Israel has very high taxes and a housing bubble, and as you mentioned it's an IT hub second only to silicon valley. The only impact of Covid is inflation in europe weakening the Euro in comparison to the Israeli Shekel which hasn't seen much inflation.

[PointOfViewGun]

Yes, in the context I was commenting in. I really couldn't care less about whether or not you can go to university without a meningitis vaccine in Texas. That isn't the topic, and isn't relevant, because as I've said multiple times now, it's incomparable.

You did though, per your comment. This really isn't that complex.

Where did I say that I'm okay with a mandate? Quote me on that one please.

You didn't. I asked you. You made the distinction between rights you can live without and rights you can't live without. So I asked you. Are you OK with any kind of mandate if its not, even by about 0.0000001%, deadly?

We're talking about mandatory vaccines just to live in a country. You're, for some reason, comparing it to vaccines being required to go to universities in Texas (although as mentioned, with the exemptions provided, there's basically no mandate). It's somewhat mind boggling, but it is what it is.

I'm comparing it to other vaccine mandates that didn't make you lot rebel. The fact that you can't get a proper education is merely a real life consequence.

Austria will make the vaccine mandatory. What happens if you don't comply with a mandate?

Yet, they're certainly not jumping out of the blue and putting a gun on your head. They're taking a public health measure based on science just like many countries around the globe did with other vaccines.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

You did though, per your comment. This really isn't that complex.

No, I did not. I elaborated on why it isn't comperable, and stated that it isn't comperable. That is all.

You didn't. I asked you. You made the distinction between rights you can live without and rights you can't live without. So I asked you. Are you OK with any kind of mandate if its not, even by about 0.0000001%, deadly?

No. As I said in a previous post, I believe government should have as little say as possible in a persons day to day life. That includes mandates.
However, while that is my personal opinion, a mandate violating human rights is no matter of opinion.

I'm comparing it to other vaccine mandates that didn't make you lot rebel. The fact that you can't get a proper education is merely a real life consequence.

I'm not aware of any other vaccine that is illegal not to have just to live in a country. Feel free to educate me and I'll rebel against that too.

Yet, they're certainly not jumping out of the blue and putting a gun on your head.

I notice that you dodged my question. It's not exactly unusual with you, not surprising, but would still be nice if you would answer
Believe it or not, I was asking the question to make your answer part of my answer, and not just out of interest

[PointOfViewGun]

No, I did not. I elaborated on why it isn't comperable, and stated that it isn't comperable. That is all.

Yet, you still commented on the Texan situation, claiming that they had an option to go to a different one, when they didn't, as the mandate covered all Texan universities. You commented on it then tried to disown it saying that you don't care about the Texan situation. It's a petty rejection of your demonstrable arguments.

No. As I said in a previous post, I believe government should have as little say as possible in a persons day to day life. That includes mandates.
However, while that is my personal opinion, a mandate violating human rights is no matter of opinion.

Then your argument about this mandate being different because it takes away your right to live (which it doesn't) is simply moot. This is the main problem with your approach that I'm bleeding out here. You made arguments in a vacuum that do not stand well within the full reality.

I'm not aware of any other vaccine that is illegal not to have just to live in a country. Feel free to educate me and I'll rebel against that too.

Already pointed out a bunch of examples. Almost all states have vaccination mandates long before COVID19 came into existence.

I notice that you dodged my question. It's not exactly unusual with you, not surprising, but would still be nice if you would answer
Believe it or not, I was asking the question to make your answer part of my answer, and not just out of interest

Not dodged but ignored as it was a tangent that you were using to shift focus from the hysteria you were trying to portray.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Yet, you still commented on the Texan situation,

Yes, to state that it's incomparable.

claiming that they had an option to go to a different one, when they didn't,as the mandate covered all Texan universities.

They do, as a:the mandate gives exemptions, including for philosophical reasons, meaning literally anyone can get it and b: they can move to a different state.
It still however doesn't matter because higher education is not necessary to be able to live in Texas.

You commented on it then tried to disown it saying that you don't care about the Texan situation. It's a petty rejection of your demonstrable arguments.

I don't care about the Texas situation. I merely stated why it's incomparable. That is all. I don't share your particular fetish for vaccination requirements in Texan universities.

Then your argument about this mandate being different because it takes away your right to live (which it doesn't) is simply moot.

It literally does just that. If you're being fined for living there it means the government doesn't believe you have the right to do so, and so it penalises you.

This is the main problem with your approach that I'm bleeding out here. You made arguments in a vacuum that do not stand well within the full reality.

Dude your argument is literally "no it doesn't".

Already pointed out a bunch of examples. Almost all states have vaccination mandates long before COVID19 came into existence.

Not able to go to a university (with exemptions) is not quite the same as not being able to live in a country.

Not dodged but ignored as it was a tangent that you were using to shift focus from the hysteria you were trying to portray.

It was a followup question.

[EmperorBatman999]

No, the plans of my government are absolutely legal and constitutional, not reckless. What reckless is, is that some few think their freedom of being stupid and irrational is more worth than the rights of a happy life and of health of the majority.

I KNOW a person, who died on covid, i give a , if you fear to become impotent by the vaccine. I want a normal life in the future again.

How do you people think tuberculose and diphteria could be extincted in western countries?

More or less by enforced vaccinations in school age!

And the first tuberculose vaccination failed horrible 1930 in Bremen, as 200 babys died because of the vaccine had been contaminated with living bacterias.

You want no vaccine? Fine immigrate to another country, you are free to leave!

Edit:

And to give the people a impression of the antivaxxers is germany:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Three police men rescuing the Reichstag of becoming the Capitol 2.0 in Summer.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I meant reckless in so far as the fact that I don’t think the vaccines have been adequately tested, and won’t reach satisfactory testing until several more years, when we can get a real idea of what it does.

We can keep citing the example of other vaccine mandates for different things, but none of those are the COVID vaccine, a vaccine which was fast-tracked and was barely even tested before it received emergency release approval. To rely on the vaccine to stop the pandemic is to lean on a broken cane hoping it won’t snap and cause further injury. It might be safe, it might not. Why should young people (genuine young people, 20s-30s) with little risk of serious and enduring infection, be made to potentially damage their bodies to maybe not get infected by a disease that they will be able to survive. The only answer I’ve heard is to maybe prevent mutations (assuming mutations aren’t caused as a response to vaccinated individuals).

Article 26
Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

But advanced, post-secondary education is not by any means a guarantee. Even UDHR says it should only be competitively available to the meritorious. Not everyone gets to go to college, and nor should everyone. Conversely, standard education from the ages of 5 to 12 should be comprehensive and of high enough quality to provide the skills for all people to survive, work, create, and think critically. College/university needs to be restored to its role as a place providing specialist training in the academic fields, not as a provider of basic skills. Modern colleges in the US now do what high schools did a generation ago, and that is a massive problem.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Even young people can have a serious grade of the infection, even more if the have asthma bronchiale or other illness prepositions. The vaccine at least is causing a mild grade of the infection. And unvaccinated are here in Germany 70-90 % of the infected. You can't burn out the virus with reservoirs of unvcaccinated, where it can survive and mutate.

Finally even tested medicine can have long-term issues. Google for Thalidomide.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Even young people can have a serious grade of the infection, even more if the have asthma bronchiale or other illness prepositions. The vaccine at least is causing a mild grade of the infection.

Then they get vaccinated. Problem solved.

And unvaccinated are here in Germany 70-90 % of the infected.

Perhaps you mean 70-90% of hospitalisations?
I highly doubt that's the actual number for just infections. Unvaccinated are required to test themselves a lot more often so are more likely to be found when sick, including asymptomatic. Meanwhile asymptomatic vaccinated people (or even ones with light symptoms) are unlikely to be tested at all, so even if it's the percentage of those tested positive, it's very unlikely the actual percentage.

You can't burn out the virus with reservoirs of unvcaccinated, where it can survive and mutate.

This would be true if vaccinated people didn't get infected, but they do. The first carrier of Omicron discovered in Israel had been vaccinated 3 times, the delta strain caused a massive wave in Israel even though 80%+ of those legible for vaccination had gotten it. The vaccine reduces severity, but does not prevent spread.