Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

[B. W.]

Not a blood clot. I read nothing you post. Still no counters to the covid is more dangerous than vaccines? Being a fraidy cat is a sadness.

It's obvious you don't read what I post...and yet you quote me. Very strange.

[enoch]

It's obvious you don't read what I post...and yet you quote me. Very strange.

You make up easily discernible lies about a dead friend to spread vaccine denier messaging on a barely populated forum. Also strange. Wouldn’t call it very sadly.

[conon394]

It's obvious you don't read what I post...and yet you quote me. Very strange.

What have you posted so far. A story a about a 45 year old with high blood pressure having a stroke. You do realize how common that is men in the US and High blood pressure is a risk factor. Also no particular link of his stoke to the specific one under investigation.

[B. W.]

You make up easily discernible lies about a dead friend to spread vaccine denier messaging on a barely populated forum. Also strange. Wouldn’t call it very sadly.

Quit projecting your faults on me.

What have you posted so far. A story a about a 45 year old with high blood pressure having a stroke. You do realize how common that is men in the US and High blood pressure is a risk factor. Also no particular link of his stoke to the specific one under investigation.

Of course there's no link. He got the shot and immediately had problems. Where could there possibly be a link?

[enoch]

I expected more. Disappointing. How's your fake friend's family doing? Trump got the vaccine and he got his whole family it cutting the line so I guess I am saying your lack of support for 45 is sad. I thought you respected him. Good to know even you think Trump is a chump.

[conon394]

Of course there's no link. He got the shot and immediately had problems. Where could there possibly be a link?

A morbidity factor high blood pressure. literary anything. I am sure it was eggs in liberal Ann Arbor that did for my father that morning. Again a stroke related to clots is not some out of the blue struck by lighting thing for men in the US of his age with high blood pressure. But again again no story linked to your story describes his stroke/clot as specifically the type under investigation.

[B. W.]

Nothing conclusion, but it is an interesting read:

https://www.americanthinker.com/arti...s_it_true.html

[enoch]

Nothing conclusion, but it is an interesting read:

https://www.americanthinker.com/arti...s_it_true.html

You meant nothing. It is idiocy.

[conon394]

You meant nothing. It is idiocy.

Actually for once its not. Well before the pandemic lots of credible researchers have seriously questioned the validity of gain of function research whether or not it is ethical or safe. China was clearly doing gain of function and Lab accidents are a real thing. At even the best run level 4 labs anywhere (or other labs). BW could have found a better not spun Russian source for the ideal - there are several credible published papers to be used many from before the pandemic. It don't help that say the WHO included very noted supporters of the ideal on its investigation team but not any noted critics of gain of function.

Edit I want to absolutely clear here I am simply pointing out that GOF and accident were a potential risk and one many researches deemed too risky before the pandemic. The research happens in many countries and any one of those Labs in the US or Japan or Europe (and probably Russia as well) could also screw up. Nor do I doubt the US or France or the UK or Japan would not potentially butt cover mistakes or try gloss over them. For comparison consider how long the Air Force was able to point F-22 accidents on Pilot error before finally admitting the air supply system was asphyxiating its pilots and actually fix it. SO no Bio weapon BS from the loony web. Nor any particular criticism of China in the sense that I think the data shows that GOF was always a reasonably likely probability for this and it could have been any number of nations whose lab made the mistake and any number of international collaborations funding the research.

I find it funny the Russian based link blandly cites Russians working China on GOF in Wuhan as a source... but that jumps to American funded? Who funded the Russians there?

[B. W.]

Here's another informative article on the vaccines. It has lots of embedded links and one video that I strongly recommend you watch before getting jabbed:

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog..._families.html

[PointOfViewGun]

Saw this on social media and its just perfect:

The same people who don't fear COVID because of a "98% survival rate" now fear a vaccine that has a 0.00009% risk of causing blood clots.

[Ludicus]

As I said, Taiwan’s death rate is lower, though not by much. Your insistence that the death rate is “exactly the same” ....

I'm back.You are wrong.
In fact, it's not the same anymore. Let's make the point of the situation,

COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista
Coronavirus (COVID-19) deaths worldwide per one million population as of April 21, 2021, by country
Vietnam : 0.36 ( population, 96.46)
China: 3.47 (population, 1,397.72)
Singapore: 5.26 (population, 5.7)
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Vietnam economy is Asia's shining star during Covid - BBC ...

Vietnam is Asia's top-performing economy in 2020 amid Covid




How did they dare ? punish them!

...analysts from Australian bank ANZ said they don’t expect any immediate actions from the U.S., partly because President Joe Biden’s administration “may not take as hard a line on the matter as under President Trump.

[Lord Thesaurian]

I'm back.You are wrong.
In fact, it's not the same anymore. Let's make the point of the situation,

I’m not wrong. Taiwan’s deathrate now slightly exceeds Vietnam’s by 0.1 deaths per million. It didn’t at the time; a screenshot of the ranking was provided to you. Your own chart further undermines your bizarre talking point on this issue, as you continue arguing with yourself. Taiwan’s GDP growth there evidently is on par with China and Vietnam. Thanks for providing further evidence supporting my point.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

[Ludicus]

It didn’t at the time ..bizarre..as you continue arguing with yourself.

Are you sure that you are not Legio?
No, back then, it was the same: 0.4 vs 0.4.

Thanks for providing further evidence supporting my point.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

How come? let's 's see what' written there,now.

Vietnam deaths per 1 million pop: 0,4
Taiwan: deaths per 1 million pop: 0,5

Anyway, as I said in the previous post, the updated figures are, as of April 21, 2021, by country
Coronavirus (COVID-19) deaths worldwide per one million population as of April 21, 2021, by country
Vietnam : 0.36 ( population, 96.46)
China: 3.47 (population, 1,397.72)
Singapore: 5.26 (population, 5.7)
Follow the link, stop denying the evidence. COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista
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The fact Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea, with no national lockdown, performed similarly to countries famous for lockdowns, including New Zealand, China and Vietnam

Leaving aside New Zealand, you are not comparing the Asian countries to the huge majority of the western countries. You are comparing Asian countries to Asian countries. In the west, lockdowns are an almost historical inevitability. In our western world, it’s common knowledge Lockdown easing will 'inevitably' lead to rise in Covid deaths
It’s also a well known fact that the eastern culture is collectivist in orientation of thought.Vietnam, China, South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Thailand, and even Cambodia (with or without lockdowns) managed the pandemic better than our countries of the West.Like it or not, the huge disparity in Eastern and Western responses to the pandemic lies in their cultural values.

For someone who’s determined to focus on Sweden

The main reason- as I said before- was that Sweden was the only country in the world that purposely sacrifice the elderly, and that is is unforgivable. Again, a sign at a memorial in Stockholm's Mynttorget square

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Sweden, deaths in the last seven days:105
Daily increase of deaths: 37.
Deaths per million in the last 7 days: 10.21
And now ( Updated: 14/04/2021) the supposedly superior, civilized Sweden declares 'personal lockdown' as country sees s the country saw its daily rate of coronavirus cases soar

On Tuesday, Sweden reported that it had reached a seven-day average of 587 new infections per million people, with the country’s average surpassing that of other countries across the continent, including France and Poland, according to the latest figures from Our World in Data.

With roughly the same population,just for comparison,Portugal.It is worth mentioning that nearly half of Portugal's COVID-19 deaths were in January. Portugal after the inevitable post-Christmas lockdown,
Deaths in the last seven days:20
Daily increase of deaths: 5.
Today, one death only.Deaths per million in the last 7 days: 1.95
Two days ago, this country started the third phase of the easing of lockdown with the reopening of more schools, shops, restaurants and cafes, a lifting of restrictions that is not followed in 10 counties where the incidence of Covid-19 is higher.
I repeat, it’s crystal clear that lockdowns are a recurrent,cyclic inevitability in our western world.Let’s hear LiLee Ng, an economics Professor of College Of Business at University Of Arkansas, originally from Singapore,

In a collectivist culture people might sacrifice their own comfort for the greater good of everyone else, be more accepting of authority and comply with strict enforcement of regulation more amicably

As I said before, ad nausea- for example, South Korea (and other Asian countries) has been able to implement measures that our Western nations do not even dare consider (e.g. consistent tracing, strict quarantine surveillance,etc.etc.)

[Lord Thesaurian]

No, back then, it was the same: 0.4 vs 0.4.

Taiwan vs Vietnam is your tangent, and it doesn’t appear to have gone the way you planned. Pivoting to alternative measures and using data from other sources and from 2+ months ago just means you’re committed to your sophistry. Here, again, is the latest death rate ranking in Asia, from highest to lowest, from the link you were given. As I said, Taiwan’s death rate is lower, though not by much. Your insistence that the death rate is “exactly the same” hurts your lockdown argument anyway, as I said.

It’s also a well known fact that the eastern culture is collectivist in orientation of thought.Vietnam, China, South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Thailand, and even Cambodia (with or without lockdowns) managed the pandemic better than our countries of the West.Like it or not, the huge disparity in Eastern and Western responses to the pandemic lies in their cultural values.

Repeating your self-refuting argument ad nauseam is still self-refuting, not to mention unfalsifiable. Your “no true scotsman” approach to dismissing inconvenient data with nebulous appeals to culture doesn’t support your lockdown narrative. If anything, the idea that non-compliance is why western countries couldn’t have practiced masks and social distancing the way Asian countries did (thereby invalidating those examples) would logically be the reason why they can’t comply with lockdowns either (thereby invalidating any lockdown example as well). As you were told from the beginning:

Successful compliance with policies that don’t involve national lockdowns supports my case, not yours, as does your unfalsifiable pivot to “lockdowns would have worked if....” How much longer are you going to argue with yourself? Perhaps you forgot what your point is?

Looks like at least a month.

On Tuesday, Sweden reported that it had reached a seven-day average of 587 new infections per million people, with the country’s average surpassing that of other countries across the continent, including France and Poland, according to the latest figures from Our World in Data.
With roughly the same population,just for comparison,Portugal.

And yet, Sweden’s deaths per million remain well below Portugal, France and Poland, not to mention Belgium, Italy, Spain, and UK. Please feel free to continue making my case for me over and over again.

[Ludicus]

As I said before, ad nausea- for example, South Korea (and other Asian countries) has been able to implement measures that our Western nations do not even dare consider (e.g. consistent tracing, strict quarantine surveillance,etc.etc.)

...and I forgot to add that unlike Sweden, all Asian countries- without exception- have made suppression of the epidemic their goal. Furthermore,as already repeatedly explained,Tegnell's negationist approach to the pandemic was a model of mitigation has led to a death toll seven times higher than in its Nordic neighbors, relative to the size of population. Finland and Norway opted for stricter measures/lockodwns and now have among the lowest death tolls in Europe. Norway and countries are parliamentary, same culture,both have mainly public health care systems, splendid social welfare programs, and let’s keep in mind that all education, including university, is free of charge. In fact, despite the political/social similarities,the two countries have responded differently to the pandemic. Scandinavian Journal of Public Health, January 7, 2021
A comparison of COVID-19 epidemiological indicators in in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Finland

Over the first 6 months of the current pandemic, Sweden experienced higher COVID-19 case rates, death rates, and higher all-cause mortality (especially in the Stockholm county epicenter) than its Nordic peer countries. Looser government restrictions at the beginning of the outbreak are likely to have played a role in the impact of COVID-19 in Sweden

And now –as expected-it’s getting worse. Daily confirmed COVID-19 deaths, rolling 7-day average, Sweden vs EU, Norway, Finland.




Uppsala is one of 13 out of Sweden’s 21 regions to have brought in stricter covid measures, and has urged residents to enter a "personal lockdown".When confronted with the reality,some people love to play with words.

--

Originally Posted by me

[/QUOTE]
No, nyet, nein.Folllow the links provided.

And yet, Sweden’s deaths per million remain well below remain well below...

Irrelevant, you know: Sweden purposely sacrificed the elderly. And read above.

The idea that non-compliance is why western countries couldn’t have practiced masks and social distancing the way Asian countries did..

It's a fact. Precisely. And more, read my previous post,

for example, South Korea (and other Asian countries) has been able to implement measures that our Western nations do not even dare consider (e.g. consistent tracing, strict quarantine surveillance,etc.etc.)

...would logically be the reason why they can’t comply with lockdowns either

"would" is the past tense, wrongly applied here.Instead, you should say: "is the reason why they can't comply with lockdowns either"
Generally speaking, in the west (there are a few exceptions) we don't comply with the covid rules. That's the reason why successful lockdowns are forced by the law.

[Lord Thesaurian]

No, nyet, nein.Folllow the links provided.

Gainsaying is not an argument, and this isn’t the first time you’ve flat out rejected facts just because you don’t like them.

Finland and Norway opted for stricter measures/lockodwns and now have among the lowest death tolls in Europe.

You can cherry pick all you want but your Sweden talking point went stale a long time ago, regardless of your failed attempts to work it into a coherent narrative.

Of the 11 modelled countries, Sweden is worthy of particular attention, given that it was the only country in which no lockdown took place. As we have previously shown4, the estimated effects of NPIs change markedly when the model is not allowed to give the Swedish data the special treatment that the country-specific last NPI parameter enables. The country-specific last NPI parameter is needed to explain the decrease of Rt supported by the Swedish death data, and to provide a good model fit despite the absence of a lockdown in Sweden.

Notably, the estimated effectiveness of the public events ban in Sweden is comparable to that of lockdown in the 10 countries in which one was implemented. The result above—that is, the public events ban and the lockdown being mutually effective in Sweden and 10 other European countries—was not addressed by Flaxman et al, which is noteworthy as this result undermines the conclusion of lockdown being especially effective.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-3025-y.pdf

While the context of the above is to critique a specific model, the critique is borne out in other research.

Implementing any NPIs was associated with significant reductions in case growth in 9 out of 10 study countries, including South Korea and Sweden that implemented only lrNPIs (Spain had a nonsignificant effect). After subtracting the epidemic and lrNPI effects, we find no clear, significant beneficial effect of mrNPIs on case growth in any country.

While small benefits cannot be excluded, we do not find significant benefits on case growth of more restrictive NPIs. Similar reductions in case growth may be achievable with less‐restrictive interventions.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/eci.13484

[Ludicus]

I mean it's not my business, but out of mere curiosity,an off topic question-I can't help but wonder why you have changed your forum name.

The estimated effectiveness of the public events ban in Sweden is comparable to that of lockdown in the 10 countries

Why some people say things that they later regret? Sweden is now asking for "personal lockdowns" (really, what is that supposed to mean?),introduced tighter restrictions, the numbers are rising, and borders closed.And now-once again-the pandemic forces the Swedish hospitals to delay elective surgeries.Covid-19 forces Swedish hospitals to delay 'necessary surgery'
It’s a great performance, indeed.

The critique is borne out in other research. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...1111/eci.13484
...This further suggests that restrictive measures do not clearly achieve protection of vulnerable populations

Nonsense. Here, nearly half of Portugal's COVID-19 deaths were in January.We know first hand that the lockdown avoided the implosion of the NHS, and many thousands of unnecessary deaths.That's a fact, not an opinion.
In the UK, up to 27,000 fewer lives would have been lost in the winter wave if Covid death rates had not risen in December. As you are a libertarian lover of selective anti-lockdown studies,here is another pro-lockdown study.Check the figure 6, page 10.
If the death rate had not risen in December 2020, up to 27,000 fewer lives would have been lost in the winter wave,
The 12-month stretch - Resolution Foundation -March 2021
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Gainsaying is not an argument, and this isn’t the first time you’ve flat out rejected facts just because you don’t like them.

Well, that’s what you are doing. You are trolling, Legio. Right? there is no other explanation. For the third time, COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista
Coronavirus (COVID-19) deaths worldwide per one million population as of April 21, 2021, by country

What's written there? tell me.
It clearly says,
Deaths per million population (total)
Vietnam : 0.36 ( population, 96.46)
China: 3.47 (population, 1,397.72)
Singapore: 5.26 (population, 5.7)

You can cherry pick all you want...Sweden

No, I’m not merely stating opinions, I’m stating facts. As i said before, it is not true that Sweden's death rate is lower than most European countries (1), but even more significant is the fact that Sweden has a higher death rate compared to its Nordic neighbors.It’s a fact, not an opinion. All three enforced lockdowns early on in the pandemic.
(1) Check,
Europe: coronavirus deaths per 100,000 by country | Statista - Incidence of coronavirus (COVID-19) deaths in the European Economic Area and the United Kingdom as of April 11, 2021, by country(per 100,000 population)
In fact, in Europe, Sweden’s death rate per million is worse than in Lithuania,Romania,Luxembourg, Austria,Latvia,Ireland,Netherlands,Germany,Greece, Malta, Estonia, Denmark, Cyprus, Finland,Norway, Iceland, and Switzerland.
Sadly, it's going to get even worse, the country no longer expects to offer the vaccine to all adults in first half of 2021.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Nonsense. Here, nearly half of Portugal's COVID-19 deaths were in January.

So again, you categorically reject facts just because you don’t like them, and deflect to an irrelevant tangent, citing a case study on the government’s overall performance in the UK, a country that has a far higher death rate than Sweden despite multiple lockdowns. Arguing with yourself to the bitter end.

Well, that’s what you are doing. You are trolling, Legio. Right?

Given you’ve done nothing but repeat the same refuted talking points again and again, your accusation here reads more like a confession.

No, I’m not merely stating opinions, I’m stating facts.

You repeated the same fallacious talking points ad nauseam, and when those were refuted as many times, you’ve long since retreated to red herrings and strawmen which you reiterate in summary, here:

As i said before, it is not true that Sweden's death rate is lower than most European countries (1), but even more significant is the fact that Sweden has a higher death rate compared to its Nordic neighbors.It’s a fact, not an opinion. All three enforced lockdowns early on in the pandemic.

Your entire narrative has been reduced to this pair of tangents to escape your own lockdown claims. Recall that you brought up Sweden in order to avoid response to a post that completely refuted your original argument. When I pointed out the fact most western European countries have worse death rates than Sweden, you pivoted to Asian countries like Japan and South Korea, and claimed their “surging virus deaths” were proof lockdowns are utterly necessary. When I pointed out the fact countries like Japan, Taiwan, and South Korea had some of the lowest death rates of any major country, you pivoted to the idea those examples (which you had just raised) don’t count because of their unique culture.

When I pointed out there was no cultural reason why Taiwan, China and Vietnam performed similarly despite the fact Taiwan didn’t lock down, you pivoted back to Sweden. When I again pointed out the fact most western European countries have worse death rates than Sweden (which, to also refute your wordplay, ranks 24th highest out of all 44-48 European countries), you pivoted back to cherry picked examples, Norway, Denmark and Finland. When I cited evidence there is no significant benefits on case growth of more restrictive NPIs relative to less restrictive ones, you dismissed this peer reviewed research in a medical journal as “nonsense.”

So here we are. Your sophistry has boxed in your argument completely. There’s nowhere else for you to move the goalposts, and you’re arguing as much with yourself as you are with anyone else at this point.

[antaeus]

When are you two going to call it a draw?