Thread: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

  1. #2361
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Source?
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    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Here we go again. Aexodus, this ground has been covered to death in this thread. There's 100 pages in which we have discussed lockdown vs no lockdown, the extent of government powers to impose lockdown, and the extent of police powers to enforce lockdown. As well as death rates, long term chronic conditions, the ethics of favouring health over economy, the side effects for society of lockdowns, etc etc etc.

    Any sources required for any perspective are likely already linked to in this thread.
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  3. #2363

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    How many of the infected people will die, and to what extent does that justify increased police powers.
    250k Deaths vs 11 Million infections. Plus long-term complications for many survivors. Considering similar circumstances in UK (though not quite to the same degree), I would think you would know/


    On the other hand, scrolling through Reddit, this made me chuckle.


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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    250k Deaths vs 11 Million infections.
    Where are you getting those stats from, and what conclusions can you draw from them.

    Plus long-term complications for many survivors.
    I have heard of long term lung problems and loss of smell and taste. I don’t know how severe they are, how common they are, and I certainly haven’t heard of rashes, or hair loss.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Always quite actual, if you want to inform yourself about the Covid 19 pandemy:

    1. USA:246.101 deaths
    2. Brazil
    3. India
    4. Mexico
    5. UK: 52.026 deaths

    https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

    Every child can see, that this pandemy is a serious threat for the national health system.

    And countries led by populist - rightwing governments (USA, UK, Brazil) are managing this pandemy miserable, as they have uncontrolled exponentially growing infection cases and actual deaths.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; November 15, 2020 at 07:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Where are you getting those stats from, and what conclusions can you draw from them.
    You can get COVID data from the CDC website. And I think we can safely conclude that this pandemic is no mere "Flu" and warrants every bit of seriousness and level of response the experts are asking of us.

    I have heard of long term lung problems and loss of smell and taste. I don’t know how severe they are, how common they are, and I certainly haven’t heard of rashes, or hair loss.
    Rashes and hair loss aren't something I personally would consider serious. I mean sure, I suppose it'd be serious to a Victoria Secret model (though maybe not this one), but long-term effects like lung complications and kidney injury are definitely serious consequences of contracting COVID. Most people don't have long-term problems, but it's certainly going to be a large number.

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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Its worth mentioning again, the US is having a couple of 9/11s a week. They shut down every airport in the country instantly.

    Likewise the deaths were politicked into a war for Big Oil to steal Iraq. We had tin foil hat wearers insisting areoplanes hitting buildings would not cause them to topple. So its no surprise we have arseclowns denying people are even dying, or iTs JuSt A fLu.

    There is a massive spike in excess mortality despite measures that reduce disease, so COVID is definitely killing people. Anyone arguing otherwise is at best a useful idiot for people who want US citizens to die, at worst they want lots of US citizens to die. The immense pressure on an already heavily leveraged health system will lead to increased deaths among health workers, and that feeds back into more deaths as other morbidities go untreated.

    The US system is very strong overall but this pandemic has found some of the bigger cracks.

    Contrast in styles
    In a lighter vein
    .. if only Trump enjoyed beer, the deaths would be close to zero.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Its worth mentioning again, the US is having a couple of 9/11s a week. They shut down every airport in the country instantly.

    Likewise the deaths were politicked into a war for Big Oil to steal Iraq. We had tin foil hat wearers insisting areoplanes hitting buildings would not cause them to topple. So its no surprise we have arseclowns denying people are even dying, or iTs JuSt A fLu.

    There is a massive spike in excess mortality despite measures that reduce disease, so COVID is definitely killing people. Anyone arguing otherwise is at best a useful idiot for people who want US citizens to die, at worst they want lots of US citizens to die. The immense pressure on an already heavily leveraged health system will lead to increased deaths among health workers, and that feeds back into more deaths as other morbidities go untreated.

    The US system is very strong overall but this pandemic has found some of the bigger cracks.

    Contrast in styles
    In a lighter vein
    .. if only Trump enjoyed beer, the deaths would be close to zero.
    Some context:

    Last year, the US suffered the equivalent of twenty-five 9/11s a day in terms of deaths. The mortality rate is up ~11% on what it was in 2019. Annually, an estimated 300,000 Americans die from complications of obesity.

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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Some context:

    Last year, the US suffered the equivalent of twenty-five 9/11s a day in terms of deaths. The mortality rate is up ~11% on what it was in 2019. Annually, an estimated 300,000 Americans die from complications of obesity.
    Either way... in anybody's language... the increase in death this year in the US has been quite shocking, no matter how those deaths are categorized.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Either way... in anybody's language... the increase in death this year in the US has been quite shocking, no matter how those deaths are categorized.
    They aren't as shocking when considered in the context of 2.8m annual deaths in an ordinary year. As your source outlines, only two-thirds of the ~11% increase in deaths from 2019 can be directly attributed to C19. In my view, there has been a disproportionate response to this virus vis-a-vis other preventable health crises in America like the opioid crisis or the obesity epidemic, which, as I pointed out in my previous post, cost more lives than C19.

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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    They aren't as shocking when considered in the context of 2.8m annual deaths in an ordinary year. As your source outlines, only two-thirds of the ~11% increase in deaths from 2019 can be directly attributed to C19. In my view, there has been a disproportionate response to this virus vis-a-vis other preventable health crises in America like the opioid crisis or the obesity epidemic, which, as I pointed out in my previous post, cost more lives than C19.
    You're saying that an excess of 300,000 deaths (up to October) on the previous year is not shocking?

    OK.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; November 25, 2020 at 07:52 AM. Reason: Personal.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    They aren't as shocking when considered in the context of 2.8m annual deaths in an ordinary year. As your source outlines, only two-thirds of the ~11% increase in deaths from 2019 can be directly attributed to C19. In my view, there has been a disproportionate response to this virus vis-a-vis other preventable health crises in America like the opioid crisis or the obesity epidemic, which, as I pointed out in my previous post, cost more lives than C19.
    Those are numbers in a year with various measures from lockdowns to masks. Meanwhile, do enlighten us. Are obesity or opioid contagious?
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    You're saying that an excess of 300,000 deaths (up to October) on the previous year is not shocking?

    OK.
    I'm saying there are double standards on what is considered "shocking". If you're outraged by 300,000 excess deaths, you should be outraged by 300,000 annual obesity related deaths, particularly since that is known contributing factor to C19 mortality, and almost certainly one of the reasons why the US death toll is the highest on earth.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; November 25, 2020 at 07:52 AM. Reason: Continuity.

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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Those are numbers in a year with various measures from lockdowns to masks. Meanwhile, do enlighten us. Are obesity or opioid contagious?
    Unfalsifiable premise. Though the president did use it to argue that his administration had saved ~1.5m lives based on initial projections (which I'm sure he'll be credited for by liberals). I might add that the numbers for obesity related deaths also include preventative measures. That the other health crises are not contagious is irrelevant to the point being made; a life isn't less valuable if it is lost to a noncontagious disease.
    Last edited by Cope; November 25, 2020 at 07:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    The comment is firmly tongue in cheek. I think by now we can be colloquial to each other no? Or have I mistaken our banter?

    And I am outraged by all those other deaths too. How does me being shocked by excess deaths suggest otherwise?
    Last edited by antaeus; November 25, 2020 at 07:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    The comment is firmly tongue in cheek. I think by now we can be colloquial to each other no? Or have I mistaken our banter?

    And I am outraged by all those other deaths too. How does me being shocked by excess deaths suggest otherwise?
    First, the comment doesn't offend me, but moderation may not take banter into consideration (I've been stung before). Second, my position isn't predicated on your personal response to C19, but the US's national response (by "you" I meant "one").

  17. #2377

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Unfalsifiable premise. Though, the president did use it to argue that his administration had saved ~1.5m lives based on initial projections (which I'm sure he'll be credited for by liberals). I might add that the numbers for obesity related deaths also include preventative measures. That the other health crises are not contagious is irrelevant to the point being made; a life isn't less valuable if it is lost to a noncontagious disease.
    Just because it's an unfalsifiable premise its not a valid? USA kept it lower despite Trump's many actions, not because of it. When that's quite obvious, why you'd throw it as a passive agressive jab is beyond me. Almost all of obesity include preventive measures but people don't get obese within a matter of weeks and potentially die. The obesity population, despite many factors in positive indirect advocation for it, is not exponentially growing. COVID19 cases do if given the opportunity which people have as part of their daily lives' routine.
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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    First, the comment doesn't offend me, but moderation may not take banter into consideration (I've been stung before). Second, my position isn't predicated on your personal response to C19, but the US's national response (by "you" I meant "one").
    And now the comment does have its tongue in cheek context spelled out for all, and you're not offended. I've always enjoyed your posts. They're strictly business. So I will always try to illicit an emotive response out of you.

    And echoing your post, my "me being shocked" is generic. One should be shocked by ongoing high preventable mortality, be it caused by obesity or what ever. One should also be shocked by additional excess mortality caused by a new disease. Especially if that disease doubles down on other causes of mortality by accelerating that mortality.

    Being shocked by death doesn't mean you lose the ability to rationalise or contextualise it. It just means that you acknowledge the numbers represent families, loved ones, funerals, endless mourning, despair on an almost unfathomably large scale.

    I understand your point and your attempt to contextualise the death toll and rationalise it relative to the cost of preventative measures and other ongoing causes of death. But I disagree with your rationalisation. I think it is worth the right effective preventative measures in order to prevent excess deaths on this scale.

    I might be biased though. I am living in a state with no covid thanks to the right effective measures, and I am able to live my life as normal currently. To go to bars, sports events, go on holiday etc. I think the key word is 'effective' and the measures in the US have been ineffective, piecemeal, and costly. So you're right within that context.

  19. #2379

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    I'm saying there are double standards on what is considered "shocking". If you're outraged by 300,000 excess deaths, you should be outraged by 300,000 annual obesity related deaths, particularly since that is known contributing factor to C19 mortality, and almost certainly one of the reasons why the US death toll is the highest on earth.
    Seriously trying to equivocate deaths from COVID with deaths from obesity?

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    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Seriously trying to equivocate deaths from COVID with deaths from obesity?
    To be fair Big Sugar and the Burgerocracy are massacring the US as badly as the US political class (and especially Trump) has been with COVID. Yes, people should be outraged. You need more outrage really.

    Likewise Big Grog. Trump as a teetotaler is actually a very good role model as President. I don't know why I find that such an egregious part of his make up, when its actually a good thing. And he doesn't smoke.
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