Thread: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

  1. #3881

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    How long was this guy in the system?
    Yeah, it's been a while:

    After completing his medical residency in 1968, Fauci joined the National Institutes of Health (NIH) as a clinical associate in the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases's (NIAID) Laboratory of Clinical Investigation (LCI).[15] He became head of the LCI's Clinical Physiology Section in 1974, and in 1980 was appointed chief of the NIAID's Laboratory of Immunoregulation. In 1984, he became director of the NIAID, a position he still holds.[16]
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  2. #3882
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    12,106

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Vanity Fair,
    In late March, former Centers for Disease Control director Robert Redfield received death threats from fellow scientists after telling CNN that he believed COVID-19 had originated in a lab
    Fellow scientists? hard to believe.

    Virus rebel Professor Edward Holmes named NSW Scientist of
    For his troubles, Professor Holmes will be awarded $60,000 from the NSW government on Tuesday night, after not a single day off in the past nine months, and a steady battering of online harassment and death threats from conspiracy theorists.
    If he had said this "I received death threads from fellow scientists”, I would have made the same comment: hard to believe.

    Vanity Fair,
    More recently, Shi and her colleagues at the WIV have performed high-profile experiments that made pathogens more infectious. Such research, known as “gain-of-function,” has generated heated controversy among virologists.
    How recently?
    A SARS-like cluster of circulating bat coronaviruses ... - Nature 2015
    Editors’ note, March 2020: We are aware that this article is being used as the basis for unverified theories that the novel coronavirus causing COVID-19 was engineered.

    --
    That said, read the whole article. The Wuhan Lab and the Gain-of-Function Disagreement
    FactCheck.org’s SciCheck feature focuses exclusively on false and misleading scientific claims that are made by partisans to influence public policy .
    ... Perlman told us that he thought Fauci’s response in the May 11 exchange was correct — that no money was given for gain-of-function research. But, he added, there’s a scientific discussion to be had on the benefits and risks of research making recombinant viruses, which involves rearranging or combining genetic material. The politicization of the issue, Perlman said, “doesn’t do anybody good.”
    ------
    Fauci stands by gain-of-function research denials, defends 24 October 2021
    --
    More,
    Fauci and Paul, Round 2

    Paul said that “all the evidence is pointing that it came from the lab,” but there is no evidence linking the novel coronavirus to a lab — only speculation. As we’ve explained, many scientists with expertise in coronaviruses consider a lab escape unlikely and a natural spillover of the virus from an animal to a human the most likely scenario, based on the data we have so far. Several of those scientists summarized their reasoning in a July 7 paper, which has not yet been peer reviewed. Update, Aug. 19: The paper was published in the journal Cell on Aug. 18.


    The Origins of SARS-CoV-2
    In the July 20 hearing, Paul, again, tied the U.S. funding of the Wuhan lab to the origin of the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic, and after the hearing, the hashtag #FauciLiedPeopleDied began trending on Twitter. But as Fauci correctly said, there’s no evidence the lab had a coronavirus that could possibly be manipulated enough to lead to the SARS-CoV-2 virus, according to several experts. Paul then said he wasn’t implying that.

    Here’s part of that exchange:

    Paul: It’s a dance, and you’re dancing around this because you’re trying to obscure responsibility for 4 million people dying around the world from a pandemic.
    Fauci: I have to … well, now you’re getting into something. If the point that you are making is that the grant that was funded as a sub award from EcoHealth to Wuhan created SARS-CoV-2, that’s where you were getting. Let me finish. …
    Paul: We don’t know if it didn’t come from the lab, but all the evidence is pointing that it came from the lab, and there will be responsibility for those who funded the lab, including yourself. …
    Fauci: I totally resent the lie that you are now propagating, senator, because if you look at the viruses that were used in the experiments that were given in the annual reports that were published in the literature, it is molecularly impossible.
    Paul: No one’s saying those viruses caused it. No one is … We’re saying they are gain-of-function viruses, because they were animal viruses that became more transmissible in human and you funded it. And you won’t admit the truth. …
    Fauci: And you are implying that what we did was responsible for the deaths of individual. I totally resent that.
    Paul: It could have been. It could have been.
    Fauci: And if anybody is lying here, senator it is you.

    There’s no evidence that the Wuhan laboratory, with or without funding from an NIH grant, created SARS-CoV-2.
    Many scientists remain open to a lab escape of a natural virus, but fewer entertain the notion that SARS-CoV-2 was engineered. While this cannot be ruled out entirely, multiple coronavirus experts view this as implausible. And the only way SARS-CoV-2 could have come from the lab, whether manipulated or a naturally occurring virus, is if the Wuhan lab was in possession of a virus much more similar to SARS-CoV-2 than the coronaviruses that have been identified.
    Robert F. Garry, a virologist at Tulane University School of Medicine, told us a coronavirus would have to be “at least 99%” similar to SARS-CoV-2 and “probably” 99.9% similar “to make that kind of switch in the lab at all.”
    “There’s just no evidence,” he said, that the Wuhan Institute of Virology “had anything close to that.”
    Shi announced in late January 2020 that a bat virus the lab named RaTG13 shares 96.2% of its genome with SARS-CoV-2, which is the highest percentage of any known virus. But experts say speculation that RaTG13 could have been changed to become SARS-CoV-2 is misplaced.
    That’s because RaTG13’s genome still differs from SARS-CoV-2 by more than 1,000 nucleotides. “RaTG13 is too divergent to be this ancestral virus,” David Robertson, the head of viral genomics and bioinformatics at the University of Glasgow, told us.
    Shi says there is only a genome sequence for RaTG13 anyway — live virus was never isolated from the sample.
    Notably, other teams have subsequently found three other bat viruses that are more closely related to SARS-CoV-2 than RaTG13 when factoring in viral recombination — although they, too, are not precursors to the virus.
    Paul claimed: “We don’t know if it didn’t come from the lab, but all the evidence is pointing that it came from the lab.” That’s not the case.
    “On lab-leak, there’s no evidence that SARS-CoV-2 escaped from a lab other than the coincidence of the Wuhan Institute of Virology being there,” Robertson told us.
    Many scientists who study coronaviruses say what data we do have points to a natural spillover as the likely origin, given the presence of similar viruses circulating in bats, the links of many of the first COVID-19 cases to animal markets in Wuhan and past spillover events with other coronaviruses. But without identification of a near-identical virus in a bat or other animal, scientists cannot be completely certain.
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 25, 2021 at 06:45 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  3. #3883

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Virus rebel Professor Edward Holmes named NSW Scientist of

    For his troubles, Professor Holmes will be awarded $60,000 from the NSW government on Tuesday night, after not a single day off in the past nine months, and a steady battering of online harassment and death threats from conspiracy theorists.
    Yes, Edward Holmes has received plenty of public funds from multiple governments, which only makes his campaign of deception on this issue more reprehensible. Although to be fair, the Chinese government appears to have gotten their money's worth from him. Incidentally, an article on the University of Sydney website (probably written by Holmes himself) is now claiming that Holmes has never received funding from the Chinese government, contrary to what has been widely reported. Yet, if Holmes would like us to believe that, he's going to have to expunge his publication record. For example, his affiliation on this article about COVID-19 is listed as Shanghai Public Health Clinical Center, Fudan University, Shanghai, China.

    Thanks to Freedom of Information Act litigation, we have pretty good evidence that Holmes and his regular collaborators all lied:

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Some information from the Fauci emails.

    On January 31st 2020, Fauci sent an email to Kristian Andersen and Jeremy Farrar asking about this article in Science: Mining coronavirus genomes for clues to the outbreak’s origins

    Andersen wrote back to Fauci the same day saying "The unusual features of the virus make up a really small part of the genome (<0.1%) so one has to look really closely at all the sequences to see that some of the features (potentially) look engineered... I should mention that after discussions earlier today, Eddie, Bob, Mike, and myself all find the genome inconsistent with expectations from evolutionary theory." The Eddie and Bob that Andersen is referring to are Edward C. Holmes and Robert F. Garry, who were two of Andersen's coauthors on the article he wrote for Nature supposedly debunking the possibility of a lab origin. That would be the same article referenced on the first page of this thread, the one which the media constantly referred to when dismissing the lab origin "conspiracy theory".

    The following day, February 1st 2020, Fauci sent an email to Hugh Auchincloss, with a PDF attachment titled "Baric, Shi et al - Nature medicine - SARS Gain of function". Fauci writes "Hugh: It is essential that we speak this AM. Keep your cell phone on. I have a conference call at 7:45 AM with Azar. It likely will be over at 8:45 AM. Read this paper as well as the e-mail that I will forward to you now. You will have tasks today that must be done." Auchincloss is the deputy director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID).

    Jeremy Farrar who is the director of the Welcome Trust, who had been CCed on the emails between Andersen and Fauci, then set up a big conference call for the same day (February 1st), at which Andersen and Holmes talked about the SARS-CoV-2 genome. Most of the invited attendees are redacted in the email, but included Fauci, Francis Collins (director of the NIH), and Andrew Rambaut. Keep in mind, that according to the Andersen's email the previous day, he and Holmes, the two experts on this conference call, believed that the genome did not look natural. Rambaut was another one of Andersen's coauthors on the Nature article supposedly debunking the conspiracy theory. Most everything in Fauci's emails regarding this conference call has been redacted.

    Just one week later, Andersen, Rambaut, Holmes, and Garry already had the preprint of their article published in Nature supposedly debunking the various conspiracy theories. Now that this has come to light, Andersen is saying that they did indeed originally believe that the origin didn't look entirely natural but after an intensive investigation, came to the conclusion that it was almost certainly of completely natural origin. In my opinion, his claim is doubtful. In that week that he and the others were supposedly involved in an intensive investigation, he apparently had time to write emails, post on twitter, and speak to journalists dismissing "crackpot theories" about the virus having been "somehow engineered".
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Vanity Fair,
    More recently, Shi and her colleagues at the WIV have performed high-profile experiments that made pathogens more infectious. Such research, known as “gain-of-function,” has generated heated controversy among virologists.
    How recently?
    A SARS-like cluster of circulating bat coronaviruses ... - Nature 2015
    Obviously, more recently than that (but I'm guessing they aren't going to be publishing the results):

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Richard Ebright's comments on the newly released documents:

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Ebright
    The materials show that the 2014 and 2019 NIH grants to EcoHealth with subcontracts to WIV funded gain-of-function research as defined in federal policies in effect in 2014-2017 and potential pandemic pathogen enhancement as defined in federal policies in effect in 2017-present.

    The materials confirm the grants supported the construction--in Wuhan--of novel chimeric SARS-related coronaviruses that combined a spike gene from one coronavirus with genetic information from another coronavirus, and confirmed the resulting viruses could infect human cells.

    The materials reveal that the resulting novel, laboratory-generated SARS-related coronaviruses also could infect mice engineered to display human receptors on cells ("humanized mice").

    The materials further reveal for the first time that one of the resulting novel, laboratory-generated SARS-related coronaviruses--one not been previously disclosed publicly--was more pathogenic to humanized mice than the starting virus from which it was constructed...

    ...and thus not only was reasonably anticipated to exhibit enhanced pathogenicity, but, indeed, was *demonstrated* to exhibit enhanced pathogenicity.

    The materials further reveal that the the grants also supported the construction--in Wuhan--of novel chimeric MERS-related coronaviruses that combined spike genes from one MERS-related coronavirus with genetic information from another MERS-related coronavirus.

    The documents make it clear that assertions by the NIH Director, Francis Collins, and the NIAID Director, Anthony Fauci, that the NIH did not support gain-of-function research or potential pandemic pathogen enhancement at WIV are untruthful.
    In summary, these experiments which could have been the source of SARS-CoV-2 were (at least partially) funded by the NIH during the moratorium on US government funding of gain-of-function research, which means Francis Collins and Anthony Fauci lied. Though, for some reason, I doubt Fauci will be held responsible.
    Like I said before:

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Whether or not SARS-CoV-2 was the result of a lab leak, the efforts to suppress inquiry and the dishonesty on the part of scientists and government agencies remains something to be concerned about.
    Although, the circumstantial evidence for it having been a lab leak continues to pile up, while the Chinese government appears to have lost interest in looking for a natural origin. Perhaps because they already know where it came from and/or because their story now is that it originated in an American lab.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  4. #3884
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    12,106

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    circumstantial evidence for it having been a lab leak continues to pile up
    Why I’m highly skeptical about the idea of that SARS-CoV-2 was created at WIV,

    Three days ago,Wuhan research theory 'molecularly impossible': Fauci

    Stephanopoulos also pressed Fauci..."What did we learn from the letter? Does it show that some of the research we were finding was riskier than we know?" Stephanopoulos pressed.

    Fauci said “that the implication that the research led to COVID-19 is "unconscionable" and "molecularly impossible."There's all of this concern about what's gain-of-function or what's not, with the implication that that research led to SARS-CoV-2, and COVID-19, which, George, unequivocally anybody that knows anything about viral biology and phylogeny of viruses know that it is molecularly impossible for those viruses that were worked on to turn into SARS-CoV-2 because they were distant enough molecularly that no matter what you did to them, they could never, ever become SARS-CoV-2”

    And yet when people talk about gain-of-function, they make that implication which I think is unconscionable to do, to say, 'Well, maybe that research led to SARS-CoV-2'," Fauci added. "You can ask any person of good faith who's a virologist, and they will tell you, absolutely clearly, that that would be molecularly impossible.
    Why many scientists say it's unlikely that SARS-CoV ... – Science -updated 7 September
    Excerpts,

    IN THE MOST ELABORATE lab-leak scenarios, SARS-CoV-2 is not a naturally occurring virus, but was created at WIV.
    Shi has created chimeric viruses in the past to get around the difficulty of growing coronaviruses isolated from bats.
    In work with Peter Daszak of the EcoHealth Alliance and Wang, described in a 2017 paper in PLOS Pathogens, WIV made chimeras using the genetic “backbone” of one of the bat coronaviruses her lab could culture and genes that coded for the surface protein, called spike, from newly found coronaviruses.

    Scientists disagree about whether this was GOF research. Shi says it was not, because the hybrid viruses her group created were not expected to be more dangerous than the original strains. Anthony Fauci, head of the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, which helped fund the study, told Congress it does not qualify as GOF research under NIAID’s guidelines. Relman finds the GOF label “vague and confusing” and instead describes this as “unnecessarily risky research.”

    Definitions aside, if Shi was creating chimeric viruses, SARS-CoV-2 may have been one of them, lab-leak proponents say.

    Still, many scientists contend that SARS-CoV-2 can’t be a lab concoction because no known virus is close enough to have served as its starting material.
    Some have countered that RaTG13, the virus found in the Mojiang mine, could have been that backbone. That makes no sense, asserts a “critical review” by Garry, Worobey, and 19 other scientists that Cell published online on 19 August. More than 1100 nucleotides, the building blocks of RNA, separate the genomes of the two viruses, and the differences are scattered in a way that doesn’t suggest deliberate engineering.

    “Nobody has the sort of insight into viral pathogenesis to design something as really devious as SARS-CoV-2,” Garry says. Three other bat viruses more similar to SARS-CoV-2 than RaTG13 in some key genomic regions are also unlikely to have been used as a template for the pandemic virus, according to the paper.
    The “smoking gun” evidence that SARS-CoV-2 was engineered, in the words of virologist and Nobel laureate David Baltimore, has not held up either. Spike has a cleavage site, a spot where a human enzyme named furin cuts the protein, which helps SARS-CoV-2 infect cells. Since early in the pandemic, lab-origin proponents have claimed that no SARS-related bat coronaviruses have this feature, leading to speculation that a lab added the site to a virus so it could infect humans.

    But it’s dead wrong, say many coronavirus specialists and evolutionary biologists. The SARS-related coronaviruses are in the beta genus, one of four in the Coronaviridae family. Several members of that genus feature furin cleavage sites, which appear to have evolved repeatedly.

    And one SARS-CoV-2–related virus, described in a Current Biology paper last year by a team led by Shi Weifeng of Shandong First Medical University, has three of the four amino acids that constitute the furin cleavage site, which is “strongly suggestive of a natural zoonotic origin” for SARS-CoV-2, the authors concluded.

    Baltimore has backpedaled the statement. He did not know several bat beta coronaviruses have the furin cleavage site, he acknowledged in an email to Science. “[T]here is more to this story than I am aware of,” he wrote. “The furin cleavage is the most ridiculous stuff,” Wang says.
    ----
    The earliest official announcement about the pandemic came on 31 December 2019, when Wuhan’s Municipal Health Commission reported a cluster of unexplained pneumonia cases linked to the city’s Huanan seafood market. Huanan market played a critical role.

    The report describes how scientists took many samples from floors, walls, and other surfaces at Wuhan markets and were able to culture two viruses isolated from Huanan. That shows the market was bursting with virus, Wang says: “In my career, I have never been able to isolate a coronavirus from an environmental sample.”

    The report also contained a major error: It claimed there were “no verified reports of live mammals being sold around 2019” at Huanan and other markets linked to early cases. A surprising study published in June by Zhou Zhao-Min of China West Normal University and colleagues challenged that view. It found nearly 50,000 animals from 38 species, most alive, for sale at 17 shops at Huanan and three other Wuhan markets between May 2017 and November 2019. (The researchers had surveyed the markets as part of a study of a tick-borne disease afflicting animals.)

    Worobey says the paper played a key role in tilting his thinking away from the lab-origin hypothesis. “The fact that early [COVID-19] cases were linked to the market, and that the market was selling what were very likely intermediate hosts?” he says. “All of that is probably trying to tell us something.”

    Worobey suspects that after a SARS-CoV-2 progenitor jumped from animals to humans, it pingponged back and forth, steadily adapting to its new host.
    Linda Saif, a veterinarian at Ohio State University, Wooster, says China’s enormous fur industry is at the top of her list of places to hunt for SARS-CoV-2’s precursors.
    Saif cites a report showing the vast majority of the world’s pelts from raccoon dogs and foxes—both canids, a family readily infected with SARS-CoV-2—are from animals farmed or trapped in China (see graphic, above). The country produces half of the world’s mink pelts, too.

    An epidemic of African swine fever virus in pigs might also, indirectly, have helped spark the pandemic, a perspective in the 27 August issue of Science suggests. China’s mass culling of pigs because of that virus led to record high pork prices in November 2019. Food consumers and producers may have resorted to alternative types of meat, ​leading to "increased wildlife-human contacts."

    But even without China’s cooperation, there are ways to move ahead.

    Some studies elsewhere have already yielded intriguing leads. Researchers have found coronaviruses in bats in neighboring countries that suggest evolutionary pathways from an ancestor of SARS-CoV-2 to the pandemic virus. More clues may come from studies in Southeast Asia of wild pangolins—the only other species to date found to harbor a close SARS-CoV-2 relative.

    Researchers can also hunt for cases outside of China that predate the December 2019 outbreak. One possibility, Wang says, is to check the blood of Wuhan visitors or residents who were in the city in the months before, including the 9000 athletes from more than 100 countries who attended the Military World Games there in October 2019. (A new antibody assay from his lab, he says, can distinguish between SARS-CoV-2 and related viruses that may have preceded it.)

    The search will never lead us to patient zero, the first person to be infected by SARS-CoV-2, Hanage says. “Humans are looking for a story,” he says. “They want Columbo to come in and just somehow get somebody to confess or show what actually happened.” Instead, there are “possible stories” about SARS-CoV-2’s origin—some more probable than others—and stories that can be excluded, Hanage says.

    “And the space of possible stories in which there was a natural origin in or around the markets is much larger than the space of possible origins in which the Wuhan Institute of Virology is involved".
    --
    --



    The denialist who spreads viruses around himself accuses Fauci of killing 4 million people.
    Rand Paul tells people to ignore CDC as COVID-19 surges
    Sen. Rand Paul suspended from YouTube for spreading mask misinformation
    ----
    Meanwhile in Brazil senators back criminal charges against Bolsonaro over Covid handling
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 27, 2021 at 10:31 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  5. #3885

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Presence of characters like Fauci has certainly destroyed CDC's reputation( corruption, pandering to foreign governments and involvement with such, and last but not least, practice of inhumane vivisection and animal abuse), just like WHO destroyed its own reputation by essentially causing world pandemic by covering up data on human-to-human transmission rates earlier last year. I think its fair to blame both WHO and CDC for how bad this pandemic got, given their blatant misdoings are bordering with definition of intentional sabotage.

  6. #3886

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Presence of characters like Fauci has certainly destroyed CDC's reputation( corruption, pandering to foreign governments and involvement with such, and last but not least, practice of inhumane vivisection and animal abuse), just like WHO destroyed its own reputation by essentially causing world pandemic by covering up data on human-to-human transmission rates earlier last year. I think its fair to blame both WHO and CDC for how bad this pandemic got, given their blatant misdoings are bordering with definition of intentional sabotage.
    It is amusing how despite Little Fasci Fauci, the Pathetic Lying POS, having lied repeatedly, the totalitarian collectivist cultists hang on his every word, perform proskynesis, and proceed to lick his boots when ever he opens his lying mouth.

  7. #3887

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    I love how just the mention of Fauci's name sends the right into a full-on toddler tantrum. And all because he contradicted Strong Daddy.

  8. #3888

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Fauci was actually sucking up to Trump, just like he sucks up to Biden now. I mean the guy literally looks like a rodent, so who would be surprised?
    Jokes aside, reason why Fauci is viewed negatively has nothing to do with Trump, but recent revelations, pointing out Fauci's involvement with Wuhan lab, as well as corruption, spreading of misinformation and complicity with animal cruelty.

  9. #3889

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Jokes aside, reason why Fauci is viewed negatively has nothing to do with Trump,
    Correct.
    but recent revelations, pointing out Fauci's involvement with Wuhan lab, as well as corruption, spreading of misinformation and complicity with animal cruelty.
    No, not just 'recent', but when his lies (by his own admission, he has lied) started coming out.
    The only thing pathetic coward nazis are no doubt disappointed about, is that Little Fasci Fauci could not fulfill the little dictatorial fantasies of gutless nazis and declare martial law in response to people exercising their first amendment rights, and declare those people terrorists, subjecting them to summary arrest and shipping them off to Gitmo...

  10. #3890

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    What did Fauci lied about exactly?
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  11. #3891
    Stario's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Not the CCCP
    Posts
    1,935

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post

    ...and between asymptomatic and symptomatic groups.But it’s very important to get vaccinated, because – once again- all vaccines greatly reduce the risk of severe disease, hospitalization and death.
    The fact that we now require booster shots suggests otherwise. And certainly, the data coming from places /w high vaccination levels show most (in some cases as much as 3/4 of all hospitalisations are in the vaccinated). Not to mention recent studies that now show natural immunity trumps vaccine immunity (by as much as 27x fold if one looks at the recent study from Israel). Then there is the fact of the lack of medium-term studies, and long-term studies non-existent at this time. And the other problem is for every Health Expert there is a counter Health Expert. But regardless of what side one is on, one's safety should end at another's skin I.E. bodily integrity and implied consent should never be eroded and be done with even if this was the bubonic plague we were dealing with (which it is clearly NOT).

    But considering here in Australia the Covid survival rate; if one is a non-nursing home resident, is roughly > 99.95% across all ages. And if you look at the under 50 age group (again as long as one is NOT a nursing home resident), it's near 100%. So as an under 50 non-nursing home resident I should be afforded bodily integrity and implied consent and be able to depend on my immune system just as the next guy who may opt instead to get the jab.
    Right now this is not the case for most people here in Australia without losing their job/ability to participate in society (well for certain groups I.E. Tennis players; General Practitioners; Lawyers/Barristers, Politicians, etc. it's still business as usual as they are still exempt from mandatory vaccinations).
    So there is a double standard here at work. Not to mention the states get roughly $30 per jab from the commonwealth and have ordered roughly 60 million vaccines for 2022 and a further 30 mil for 2023 for a population of roughly 26 million (so clearly there is $$$ to be made here).

    The Gov is also trying to put in absurd totalitarian laws (on the basis of an Emergency), children under 15 will start being issued $40 fines for not wearing masks (now how is a 9 yo going to pay his/her fine ? child labour camps next???). Then there is Vic Police shooting rubber bullets and bashing their own people all in the name of Covid. And the QLD Premier let it slip they are building quarantine facilities set to complete next year that could also be used for the unvaccinated in the future!?! Now, what does that supposed to mean? Concentration camps?
    In Australia at least it is not about health anymore. Things have gotten somewhat weird and and the same time scary in the last 6 months. To me, it seems like a time-warp back to communism (and believe it when I say I've lived that).

    edit: I am currently in a legal battle myself trying to push against this "Medical Apartheid" we are experiencing here in Australia. I figure I can't lose, only win or learn. But I know it's going to get painful before it gets better.
    in the end, at least I can look myself in the mirror and know that my family and my true friends (lost some supposed friends - O how peoples characters are revealed in the last 6 months), will look back at this in a decade or two or three and be proud of me and the many others like me that are pushing back and will continue to do so...
    Last edited by Stario; October 27, 2021 at 07:39 PM.

  12. #3892

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    I have noted repeatedly in this thread Fauci's lies. Including lies by his own admission (masks*, herd immunity), and otherwise (e.g.. outdoor spread, GoF funding).
    The pretense at ignorance is, of course, expected, though pathetic
    Here is a Slate article on some of them (which the article characterizes as "noble"):
    https://slate.com/technology/2021/07...cdc-masks.html
    with the conclusion:
    "Noble lies are a trap. We cannot predict the public’s behavior, and loss of trust is devastating. The general population is far too skeptical to blindly follow the advice of experts, and far too intelligent to be easily duped."

    *as an aside, there is video of Little Fasci Fauci being interviewed on Bloomberg (I think in 2019) where he refers to mask wearing as 'paranoid'.
    Last edited by Infidel144; October 28, 2021 at 07:26 AM. Reason: Personal.

  13. #3893

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    I have noted repeatedly in this thread Fauci's lies. Including lies by his own admission (masks*, herd immunity), and otherwise (e.g.. outdoor spread, GoF funding).
    The pretense at ignorance is, of course, expected, though pathetic
    Here is a Slate article on some of them (which the article characterizes as "noble"):
    https://slate.com/technology/2021/07...cdc-masks.html
    with the conclusion:
    "Noble lies are a trap. We cannot predict the public’s behavior, and loss of trust is devastating. The general population is far too skeptical to blindly follow the advice of experts, and far too intelligent to be easily duped."
    *as an aside, there is video of Little Fasci Fauci being interviewed on Bloomberg (I think in 2019) where he refers to mask wearing as 'paranoid'.
    It's cute that you automatically tie asking a question to a "pretense of ignorence" which is interesting that you jumped on that gun so quickly. So, what did Fauci lie about exactly? You can pick one. Shouldn't be hard to decipher it I assume.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  14. #3894

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    It's cute that you automatically tie asking a question to a "pretense of ignorence" which is interesting that you jumped on that gun so quickly. So, what did Fauci lie about exactly? You can pick one. Shouldn't be hard to decipher it I assume.
    Why are you asking the question if you read what you quoted, which already contains the answer to your question?
    have noted repeatedly in this thread Fauci's lies. Including lies by his own admission (masks*, herd immunity), and otherwise (e.g.. outdoor spread, GoF funding).
    The pretense at ignorance is, of course, expected, though pathetic
    Here is a Slate article on some of them (which the article characterizes as "noble"):
    https://slate.com/technology/2021/07...cdc-masks.html

    with the conclusion:
    "Noble lies are a trap. We cannot predict the public’s behavior, and loss of trust is devastating. The general population is far too skeptical to blindly follow the advice of experts, and far too intelligent to be easily duped."
    *as an aside, there is video of Little Fasci Fauci being interviewed on Bloomberg (I think in 2019) where he refers to mask wearing as 'paranoid'.
    He literally pointed out where and what about did Fauci lie.

  15. #3895

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Why are you asking the question if you read what you quoted, which already contains the answer to your question?
    He literally pointed out where and what about did Fauci lie.
    I'm not really interested in vague references. If its such a big plot point for you two it should be fairly easy to state out what exactly Fauci lied about.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  16. #3896
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    12,106

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stario View Post
    The fact that we now require booster shots suggests otherwise.
    Not at all. Like some other vaccines, this booster dose will help extend the protection you gained from your first 2 doses and give you longer term protection.

    data coming from places /w high vaccination levels show most (in some cases as much as 3/4 of all hospitalisations are in the vaccinated)
    Redutio ad absurdum: what should we expect from a country with 100% vaccination rate? Here, with 87,2% fully vaccinated, of the five deaths recorded on Wednesday, three occurred in the oldest age group - people aged 80 or more.Well?
    --------
    MJ 2021; 374 doi: https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.n2282 (Published 16 September 2021)
    Unvaccinated Americans have died at 11 times the rate of those fully vaccinated since the delta variant became the dominant strain, indicate surveillance data gathered over the summer by the US Centers for Disease Control.Vaccinated people were 10 times less likely to be admitted to hospital and five times less likely to be infected than unvaccinated people, found one study that tracked adults across 13 states and cities.
    US- as of today 27 October COVID-19 Cases, Hospitalizations, and Deaths in Persons

    ----
    Proudly presenting- 87.2% fully vaccinated (Oct 27, 2021). The highest vaccination rate in the world. The country has dropped most or all restrictions.




    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  17. #3897

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    As a 90s kid, I had polio vaccine and probably some others, but never ever in my life was I required to get a "booster" for one. I think it makes sense to intepreted "booster shots" recommendation as a vague confession by media that vaccines turn out to be not so effective.
    I hope that companies like Pfizer will be eventually forced to pay reparations to the public, whose money were invested to them through taxation if this continued. All of this could have been avoided if American pharmaceutical companies weren't so backwards and undeveloped.

  18. #3898

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    It makes a lot more sense to treat such a take on it as utterly idiotic. Thankfully, people have scientific knowledge to know that different viruses work differently. People have been similarly getting "booster" shots against influenza to strengthen up their defenses for the flu season for years. I hope to live in a world where basic understanding of how things work is more widespread in the public.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  19. #3899
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    4,848

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    As a 90s kid, I had polio vaccine and probably some others, but never ever in my life was I required to get a "booster" for one. I think it makes sense to intepreted "booster shots" recommendation as a vague confession by media that vaccines turn out to be not so effective.
    I hope that companies like Pfizer will be eventually forced to pay reparations to the public, whose money were invested to them through taxation if this continued. All of this could have been avoided if American pharmaceutical companies weren't so backwards and undeveloped.
    Note.. the multiple doses.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  20. #3900
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    12,106

    Default Re: Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    People have been similarly getting "booster" shots against influenza to strengthen up their defenses for the flu season for years.
    In fact, I going to get both vaccines next saturday. ( Covid third dose + influvac tetra).
    Share of the population fully vaccinated against COVID-19, Oct 27, 2021
    But we don’t know what the winter will bring.

    3 weeks ago. An interesting CBS interview.https://www.cbsnews.com/video/portug...cination-rate/

    Edit.
    Here, after the revolution of 1974, a process of health services restructuring began, which culminated in the establishment, in 1979, of the NHS. Vaccination coverage has been always very high. Vaccination rate for measles, mumps and rubella is 95%. The infant mortality rate reduced dramatically.I quote from Eurostat: “Compared with 1961, the infant mortality decreased in all EU Member States with the largest decreases recorded in Portugal from 88.8 deaths per 1 000 live births in 1961 to 2.8 in 2019”. (Just for comparison, in 2019, the infant mortality rate in the US was 5.6 deaths per 1,000 live births). Several factors were responsible for these improvements,namely improvements in the NHS through the creation of specialized child and maternal healthcare services over the past few decades; an increase in the level of education of the population, and particularly, the reduction in illiteracy among women, which is one of the risk factors for infant morbidity and mortality.For all these reasons there is, therefore, widespread acceptance of vaccines.
    ---
    Arora P, Rocha C, Kempf A. et al. The spike protein of SARS-CoV-2 variant A.30 is heavily mutated and evades vaccine-induced antibodies with high efficiency. Cell Mol Immunol October 25, 2021. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41423-021-00779-5
    The variant A.30 (also termed A.VOI.V2), which was detected in several patients in Angola and Sweden in Spring 2021 and likely originated in Tanzania, can evade control by vaccine-induced antibodies and might show an increased capacity to enter cells in a cathepsin L-dependent manner, which may aid particularly in an extrapulmonary spread. Close monitoring warranted.

    Nevertheless, heterologous ChAdOx1 nCoV-19/BNT162b2 vaccination, which was previously shown to augment neutralizing antibody responses against VOCs compared to corresponding homologous vaccinations [7, 10], might offer robust protection against the A.30 variant.
    Last edited by Ludicus; October 28, 2021 at 08:33 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •