Coronavirus outbreak - From China to the World.

[PointOfViewGun]

Italy providing accurate numbers isn't enough. You can't determine the lethality of the disease based on data from just one country. Infection numbers help determine the spread to the disease and how long quarantine measures need to be enacted to combat the disease. There's no excuse for purposely under-reporting infections.

Once again, how would China providing accurate numbers would change the response we saw from countries like USA, UK, or Brazil?

[Vanoi]

Once again, how would China providing accurate numbers would change the response we saw from countries like USA, UK, or Brazil?

I'm sorry where did i claim in my posts that China reporting accurate numbers would change the responses of those countries?

How about you address my post and not a claim i didn't make.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Went through both links but I don't see any real effect of the cover up. I don't see how different USA, UK or Brazil would act differently if China was providing accurate numbers since day one.

You’re entitled to deliberately ignore information if you wish. Doing so won’t lend credence to the appeal to consequence used to construe your assertion as empirical.

[Stario]

According to Walter Ricciardi:
"“Only 12 per cent of death certificates (of people listed as dying from coronavirus) have shown a direct causality from coronavirus,” said Professor Walter Ricciardi, scientific adviser to Italy’s health ministry.

“The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus.’’

Something also worth considering (as already stated in this tread), covid-19 is not the primary root cause of death (this is the other real dishonesty here)- in majority of cases it is ongoing chronic heart disease, respiratory disease, obesity, diabetes, cancer etc.

Yup I totally agree with you Infidel144, the above quote is what I posted a week ago in the other covid-19 threat. Only you said it much clearer with good reference. Rep points for you Mister ヽ(･∀･)ﾉ

He said while 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, the other 88 per cent of deaths had least one comorbidity – and many had two or three. Each year in Italy there are 17,000 deaths from influenza."
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/wor...522be679fa63c7

WOW 17,000 death from Influenza -imagine how many have both Influenza + Covid-19. With influenza hitting up to 3-5 million each year -adding it to the equation explains why places like Italy are so overwhelmed.
For example here in Australia we still have 2-3 month until we hit peak influenza season. But that explains why we are only having 20 deaths. Once influenza hits on top of Covid-19 things might be very different.

But if a patient dies having both influenza + covid-19 & places like John Hopkins Corona virus resource center are reporting it as a Corona virus death -this is real dishonesty :-<

[Sar1n]

Stario, did you even bother to check how people die from influenza? It's almost always through comorbidities, rarely directly from viral pneumonia. Same as Covid-19.

The real dishonesty is counting deaths from influenza and Covid-19 differently in order to make one of them appear less severe.

[PointOfViewGun]

I'm sorry where did i claim in my posts that China reporting accurate numbers would change the responses of those countries?
How about you address my post and not a claim i didn't make.

You don't realize that you jumped into responding to my posts? The same posts that I've been asking what would be different if China reported accurate numbers.

You’re entitled to deliberately ignore information if you wish. Doing so won’t lend credence to the appeal to consequence used to construe your assertion as empirical.

I'm not sure what information I'm ignoring. I doubt you know it as well since you didn't go beyond providing vague links...

[Stario]

The real dishonesty is counting deaths from influenza and Covid-19 differently in order to make one of them appear less severe.

If a patient test positive for both Influenza + Covid-19 & time of death, and we a reporting it as a Coivid-19 death, then there is a serious BIAS at work here. Because reality is that we a seeing the results of both Influenza + Covid-19. And since influenza affects more than 3-5 million people per year this would skew any results we see as far as CFR % etc.

[Infidel144]

But if a patient dies having both influenza + covid-19 & places like John Hopkins Corona virus resource center are reporting it as a Corona virus death -this is real dishonesty :-<

I would think giving more information would be better.
The article I linked to had something about how Germany was counting deaths (stricter than Italy), but the article is now behind a paywall for me.

[sumskilz]

If a patient test positive for both Influenza + Covid-19 & time of death, and we a reporting it as a Coivid-19 death, then there is a serious BIAS at work here. Because reality is that we a seeing the results of both Influenza + Covid-19. And since influenza affects more than 3-5 million people per year this would rely skew any results we see as far as CFR % , no # of cases etc.

Considering more than 12% of confirmed COVID-19 cases in Italy have already died, finding out that about 1/8th of them had no comorbidities doesn't really make the situation look better, since we already knew who the high risk groups were. Especially in light of this: Italy’s Coronavirus Death Toll Is Far Higher Than Reported

Although it would be interesting to see how Germany is counting victims since that could explain some of the disparity between the two countries. Your hypothesis doesn't hold up to scrutiny when the death rates in some parts of Italy are more than four times what they are normally at the same time of the year.

That said, I agree with you that South Korea is the model to follow. Although the reaction time was too slow in a lot of countries, so the lockdowns are basically stopgap measures meant to compensate for lack of preparedness.

[Stario]

I would think giving more information would be better.
The article I linked to had something about how Germany was counting deaths (stricter than Italy), but the article is now behind a paywall for me.

Ye the virus scaremongers (similarly to those climate scaremongers), don't want you too see it [article] for fear their dishonesty would be reveled.
In the meantime here in Australia the government is encouraging neighbours to snitch + dob on neighbours -there are individual fines over $1,000 (some states and territories near $2,000), & business that breaches the draconian lock-down laws can face many thousand dollar fines (hence a lot of businesses have closed).
People are recording people on facebook & other social media then dobbing them in to the authorities. I feel like those would be the same people that would have called the Gestapo on Anne Frank. Its is really sad situation.

Your hypothesis doesn't hold up to scrutiny when the death rates in some parts of Italy are more than four times what they are normally at the same time of the year.

Total deaths in Italy is 13,915 NOW the total yearly death in Italy from Influenza is 17,000 per year. Who is to say 1/2 of the deaths aren't from Influenza or even that 60, 80, 90% of death are from influenza? Who is to say both viruses aren't contributing to this scenario & this is why Italy is struggling so hard?!
Reality, there is no way of knowing who the real culprit is due to such BIAS in reporting.

[Vanoi]

You do know that influenza and covid-19 are different viruses, right? You can easily test the dead and figure out what disease they had. There's no proof of those deaths being attributed to influenza.

[B. W.]

You lied about facts we can Google. You lied that Politiwoops didn't let us see Chuck Schumer's deleted pics. It does. You lied that Snopes' argument for Schumer's non-existent tweet was that his account was hacked. Snopes never argued as such. You lied that Democrats tweeted those five tweets about response to coronavirus. Four of those tweets were not about corona virus response, or anything related to the pandemic, while the fifth one was a fake.

This is now about utilizing simple logic. You can not use an article from end of January to claim that people didn't consider a particular action till end of March. It doesn't matter what is said on the article. That's not how time and logic works. No matter how you try to twist things. Nor any of that changes the fact that the bill had nothing to do with corona virus response or travel bans in relation to it.

Now you're in denial that the Dems ever criticized Trump for the Chinese travel ban.

As for Snopes, your preferred source of authenticity, you remain oblivious to the fact that it is totally bias. It started out as a husband and wife team living in a trailer in the woods of northern California, funded by discrete donations by none other than George Soros. The wife divorced her husband after she found out he had spent nearly $100,000.00 of their hard earned Soros money on prostitutes.

He kept the operation going and married a porn star and they hired a retired porn star to be their chief researcher. That's it in a nutshell for your fact checker.

The next thing you'll tell me is that Twitter isn't biased.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Considering more than 12% of confirmed COVID-19 cases in Italy have already died, finding out that about 1/8th of them had no comorbidities doesn't really make the situation look better, since we already knew who the high risk groups were. Especially in light of this: Italy’s Coronavirus Death Toll Is Far Higher Than Reported

Although it would be interesting to see how Germany is counting victims since that could explain some of the disparity between the two countries. Your hypothesis doesn't hold up to scrutiny when the death rates in some parts of Italy are more than four times what they are normally at the same time of the year.

That said, I agree with you that South Korea is the model to follow. Although the reaction time was too slow in a lot of countries, so the lockdowns are basically stopgap measures meant to compensate for lack of preparedness.

In Europe, the number of intensive-care beds per capita is very unequally distributed. In Italy, it is three times lower than here (filled in by me: Germany). In England, five times lower. The challenge in England will be greater than in Spain. And the situation in the U.S. is very alarming. The reporting system there is also underdeveloped.

https://www.spiegel.de/international...f-cf5ca254b008

A interview with Christian Drosten, one of german Top Virologists:

Christian Drosten

Virologist provides first explanations for low death rates in Germany

Together with Research Minister Karliczek, Charité virologist Christian Drosten commented on the comparatively low death rate at Corona in Germany - and presented a new research network.

"We have so few deaths because we do a lot of laboratory diagnostics," says Christian Drosten, virologist at the Berlin Charité and government advisor in Berlin this morning.

In Germany, over half a million corona tests are currently being carried out every week. Charité CEO Heyo Kroemer adds that Germany started testing earlier than other countries affected by the pandemic. This was also because there was more time in Germany to prepare the tests before there were many corona cases.

Andreas Gassen of the National Association of Statutory Health Insurance Physicians (KBV) later spoke at a press conference that 410,000 tests had been carried out in Germany since March 9. 360,000 tests per week are possible. There would also be test capacities in university laboratories that are not covered by the KBV. Drosten presumably includes this and therefore has a higher number.

The tests themselves do not reduce the death toll. However, more people tested give a more accurate picture of the overall situation. A high dark figure distorts the picture towards a high death rate, especially when people who are severely affected by the disease are tested. If, on the other hand, many people with a mild course are included in the statistics, the death rate drops proportionally.

However, this ratio could change quickly. A look at Italy shows how the statistics shift when especially patients with severe symptoms are tested. In Germany, too, it can be expected that the more severely ill will become more important as the number of infections increases.

At the press conference in Berlin, the doctors presented a new research network together with Federal Research Minister Anja Karliczek (CDU). According to the Minister, this "National Task Force" should develop the most effective ideas and recipes to protect patients as best as possible. It is a new association of the Federal Ministry of Research, scientific networks and university clinics. According to Karliczek, there was a call from the Chancellor who asked that the forces now be pooled.

The Ministry of Research supports the establishment of the network with 150 million euros. Accordingly, the clinics should exchange experiences about their action plans in dealing with the pandemic. In addition, a compilation of the data of all Covid-19 patients is sought in order to obtain an overview of the patient's medical history and constitution.

The initiators - Charité CEO Heyo Kroemer and Virology Director Christian Drosten - hope to gain insights into pandemic management and vaccine and therapy development from the data collection. "The university clinics are particularly close to the sick and to research," said Drosten. Together with other research networks and politics, one can react faster to current developments.

According to virologist Christian Drosten, the restrictions on public life should be lifted gradually at an appropriate time. "Of course you have to get out of there," says Drosten, without naming a specific point in time. It had to be clarified where and for whom this should apply first. Here science is asked, model predictions are needed. Simply isolating risk groups like the elderly, but it doesn't work.

It is to be hoped that the latest trend can be gradually mitigated with more and more new cases every day. That could possibly be readable in the numbers in the next few days.

https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/...c-3f85c6b00282

German clinics now have 40,000 intensive care beds

The clinics in Germany have retrofitted for severe Covid 19 cases. The number of beds in which patients can be ventilated or otherwise treated in intensive care has increased significantly.

https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/co...d-ce5101e8599e

Its simply a case of earlier testing and more intensive care beds, while in Italy the virus could spread undiscovered for weeks.

[PointOfViewGun]

Incredible.
Now you're in denial that the Dems ever criticized Trump for the Chinese travel ban.
As for Snopes, your preferred source of authenticity, you remain oblivious to the fact that it is totally bias. It started out as a husband and wife team living in a trailer in the woods of northern California, funded by discrete donations by none other than George Soros. The wife divorced her husband after she found out he had spent nearly $100,000.00 of their hard earned Soros money on prostitutes.
He kept the operation going and married a porn star and they hired a retired porn star to be their chief researcher. That's it in a nutshell for your fact checker.
The next thing you'll tell me is that Twitter isn't biased.

You lied about what Snopes argued. If Snopes was so unreliable you wouldn't need a petty lie like that. What you were able to show to support for your claim that Democrats criticized Trump for the Chinese travel restriction (no ban so far) is one fake tweet and four other tweets that were unrelated to China. Twitter's credibility isn't even a issue here, yet you mention it to deflect. If Snopes is so unreliable why did you lie about what they argued?

[B. W.]

You lied about what Snopes argued. If Snopes was so unreliable you wouldn't need a petty lie like that. What you were able to show to support for your claim that Democrats criticized Trump for the Chinese travel restriction (no ban so far) is one fake tweet and four other tweets that were unrelated to China. Twitter's credibility isn't even a issue here, yet you mention it to deflect. If Snopes is so unreliable why did you lie about what they argued?

The Democrats were still planning to bring the No Ban Act to the floor as late as March 7, 2020:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...-to-dismantle/

I posted a detailed investigation into Snopes in another thread a long time ago. You were a participant in that thread. You didn't read it then and it is doubtful you would read it now if I were to waste more of my time going back through it.

As the old saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

[PointOfViewGun]

The Democrats were still planning to bring the No Ban Act to the floor as late as March 7, 2020:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...-to-dismantle/
I posted a detailed investigation into Snopes in another thread a long time ago. You were a participant in that thread. You didn't read it then and it is doubtful you would read it now if I were to waste more of my time going back through it.
As the old saying goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

Dance all you want. You relied on lies that were so damn basic that there was no intelligent thought in it. That's the problem of your position. I don't care what kind of analysis you have of Snopes. Snopes could be the Russian Bureau of Censorship. None of that changes the nature of your lies. No matter how much you try to spin things you lied about things that we didn't even need to Google. How much more pathetic a person's arguments can become? Sigh... You're not leading any metaphorical horse. What you imply to be the horse is holding you mirror to show what you really are as you hee-haw...

From your article:

“President Trump’s Muslim Ban is a hateful policy, born from bigotry, that denies both our country and millions of aspiring Americans a better future,” said Rep. Judy Chu of California, when she introduced legislation with Sen. Chris Coons of Delaware in April 2019.

The decision allowed the administration to restrict entry from citizens of seven countries — Iran, Libya, North Korea, Somalia, Syria, Venezuela and Yemen — because they were determined to be uncooperative in sharing information the U.S. needed to vet incoming visitors. The version approved by the Supreme Court allowed citizens from those countries to apply for waivers from the ban.

A new version of that plan went into effect last month, with Mr. Trump expanding the list to 13 countries, adding Burma, Eritrea, Kyrgyzstan, Nigeria, Sudan and Tanzania. The new countries are subject to a less restrictive ban, as only applicants from certain programs are affected.

Demonstrated by your own article, the bill continues to have no relation to China, nor tries to remove any travel restrictions with China.

[B. W.]

Dance all you want. You relied on lies that were so damn basic that there was no intelligent thought in it. That's the problem of your position. I don't care what kind of analysis you have of Snopes. Snopes could be the Russian Bureau of Censorship. None of that changes the nature of your lies. No matter how much you try to spin things you lied about things that we didn't even need to Google. How much more pathetic a person's arguments can become? Sigh... You're not leading any metaphorical horse. What you imply to be the horse is holding you mirror to show what you really are as you hee-haw...

From your article:



Demonstrated by your own article, the bill continues to have no relation to China, nor tries to remove any travel restrictions with China.

This was also in the article:

"Last week, Mr. Trump said his administration is considering establishing a travel ban on visitors from countries that have seen a severe outbreak of the coronavirus, though he did not specify which countries would be on the list."

[Cyclops]

...

That said, I agree with you that South Korea is the model to follow. Although the reaction time was too slow in a lot of countries, so the lockdowns are basically stopgap measures meant to compensate for lack of preparedness.

Testing, testing and more testing, and the infected isolated hard. Its not rocket science.

I hope Australia's experience isn't being touted as an alternative, we have a sea border so we've had some success in stemming external infection but it looks like its loose in the community in our two biggest states. We won't know until next week of course because more of our data is coming from tests on people with clear symptoms than mass testing scooping as many as possible. i feel like we are getting a testing regime up and running, be lovely to get the testing-tracking setup going.

We're talking about unfreezing at the end of June, thats premature unless we escalate testing to Singapore/RoK levels.

So far the lockdown on indigenous communities has mostly held but there's been a handful of external infected flying in. The remote communities are mostly in WA and NT, geographically huge states with sparse populations, basically mining towns, tourist traps and aboriginal settlements. The whole of WA has been preemeptively put under something like martial law, to keep the mines open (we need the bucks) and keep the poor aborigines alive.

[tgoodenow]

So trump invoked the DPA and is telling 3M to stop sending masks made in the US to Latin America and Canada. We desperately need them here, not sure why we would be servicing other countries when we are out of stock.

[Gaidin]

So trump invoked the DPA and is telling 3M to stop sending masks made in the US to Latin America and Canada. We desperately need them here, not sure why we would be servicing other countries when we are out of stock.

Right now? 3M makes three kinds of respirator masks. Industrial, hospital, and surgical. The latter two at a much lesser count because they're well, harder to make and are actually FDA approved for medical use. Other countries probably approve the Industrial masks for their own medical use so no nevermind they were shipping them. One of the Coronavirus bills had wording in it that was giving them immunity for anything that popped up from using their Industrial masks medical purposes at least during this entire corona-virus pandemic. I imagine until WHO declares the pandemic over. Now, they have to repurpose plants to hilariously ramp up production. Shockingly that takes time. But now you know the reason hospitals and clinics were running out of at least that form of PPE.