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Thread: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

  1. #81
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Citizens of certain European countries have significantly less individual freedoms then Americans do, which is the point.


    Ahh yes like the right to NOT have their kids to do lock down in place drills
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #82

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post


    Ahh yes like the right to NOT have their kids to do lock down in place drills
    To be fair, most schools in our state don't experience gun violence. Which, considering the liberal gun laws in Washington State, is quite surprising.

  3. #83
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    To be fair, most schools in our state don't experience gun violence. Which, considering the liberal gun laws in Washington State, is quite surprising.
    True perhaps, but US gun still makes itself a staggering outlier vs every OECD developed nation in your chance of being killed by a gun.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  4. #84

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    True perhaps, but US gun still makes itself a staggering outlier vs every OECD developed nation in your chance of being killed by a gun.
    In any case, I don't think focusing on the gun debate moves the country forward in any real way. It's an unfortunate distraction, but lobbying and legislative resources are better employed towards other activities. Every time there is a massive school shooting or something, politicians are obligated to drop everything and the debate is re-ignited again... Which could devolve into being a black hole for all debate. To draw a parallel, the scumbag Tim Eyeman somehow managed to dupe enough people into voting for i-976, which has set been a thorn in tax reform and lobbying for months. It's a huge issue obviously, but by the time it's solved, there will be another election cycle, new issues, and... it's just hard enough to mobilize resources. Retarded like i-976 or some school shooting takes away resources from the big underlying problems.

  5. #85
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    "Tim Eyeman"

    Ahh yes I want to complain about the quality of all my government services but somehow I think pink pony unicorns provide them for free as soon as government does not due to lowered tax income. But than again maybe I assume I will always be wealthy and elite.
    Last edited by conon394; February 06, 2020 at 12:49 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  6. #86

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    The charlatan should be banned from politics. It's bad enough that he's been annoying people for a decade, he wasted a good portion of November and December that I could've spent on other . I've also had zero progress with trying to push zoning as an agenda. Affordable housing is a buzzword that people love to bring up but nobody actually wants to tackle or really talk about.

  7. #87

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Slippery slope is kind of real when it comes to government infringements on individual freedoms, so he is correct.
    Slippery slope for me but not for thee, eh?
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  8. #88

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    It's not a slippery slope when the intentions and arguments of leading liberals are there for us to see. Their supposed inability to do what they claim to want is irrelevant.



  9. #89
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    It's not a slippery slope when the intentions and arguments of leading liberals are there for us to see. Their supposed inability to do what they claim to want is irrelevant.
    Not sure what you mean. I am perfectly fine with gun ownership as soon as it is well regulated in a system. Hmm that sounds familiar.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    It's not a slippery slope when the intentions and arguments of leading liberals are there for us to see.
    What an inane statement. You still never gave what any of this would look like and are still going down the "step 2: ??? / step 3: Tyranny" route. You obviously don't put stock in primary posturing, you are just pretending to now for convenience.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Their supposed inability to do what they claim to want is irrelevant.
    Not really; going "down a slippery slope" implies something is actually happening. If dark, shadowy agents want to do something but can't do anything, then you aren't really going down in any meaningful way.

    And I am just trying to imagine you using this exact line when discussing something about Trump. "It's not a slippery slope when the intentions and arguments of Trump are there for us to see. His supposed inability to do what he claims to want is irrelevant" It's like staring at an eclipse.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  11. #91

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    What an inane statement. You still never gave what any of this would look like and are still going down the "step 2: ??? / step 3: Tyranny" route. You obviously don't put stock in primary posturing, you are just pretending to now for convenience.
    We could go in circles discussing the hypothetical scenarios in which the government could successfully ban "assault weapons". As I've stated, that's irrelevant to whether certain liberals actually want to ban "assault weapons."

    Not really; going "down a slippery slope" implies something is actually happening. If dark, shadowy agents want to do something but can't do anything, then you aren't really going down in any meaningful way.
    A slippery slope implies that the implementation of position A will facilitate, encourage or act as a Trojan horse for the implementation of position B. Position B is therefore a future projection/expectation not a description of the present. A slippery slope fallacy occurs when someone infers or deduces position B from position A without evidence: e.g. "legislating for same-sex marriage facilitates, encourages or acts as a Trojan horse for the legalization of pedophilia". In this case (gun control), candidates like Sanders are already openly supporting position B (banning "assault weapons"), so no fallacious inference of intent has occurred.

    And I am just trying to imagine you using this exact line when discussing something about Trump. "It's not a slippery slope when the intentions and arguments of Trump are there for us to see. His supposed inability to do what he claims to want is irrelevant" It's like staring at an eclipse.
    If Trump wanted something impractical, I wouldn't argue that you were engaging in a slippery slope fallacy for pointing out that he wants it.
    Last edited by Cope; February 06, 2020 at 07:31 PM.



  12. #92
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    I never quite followed this line of reasoning: if the point of the 2A is, in fact, to allow citizens to resist a tyrannical government, why are proponents of this interpretation comfortable with restrictions on many types of weapons that would be incredibly useful in that instance? I mean, you are for restricting citizen access to mortars and grenade launchers, right? Why? Those would be incredibly useful in resisting a tyrannical takeover. If this is your view, where are you drawing your line on weapon access?
    You better keep your hands off my Sherman tank.










  13. #93

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    I thought I already answered that point:

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail
    "The wording of the amendment is as follows: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The "security of a free State" would be jeopardized if radicals, gangsters, terrorists and psychopaths were able to hold the country to ransom with howitzers, missile systems, tactical nukes etc. For my part, I wouldn't mind if fully automatic weapons were largely unrestricted (though I'm happy to compromise on that point), but once semi-automatic rifles or "assault weapons" are removed then the people would no longer possess the capacity to resist the state. A militia equipped with six-shooters and blunderbusses is as good as disarmed."
    As cool as Sherman tanks are, you can lump 75mm cannons in with howitzers, missile systems and tactical nukes as weapons for the purposes of my point.



  14. #94

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Not sure what you mean. I am perfectly fine with gun ownership as soon as it is well regulated in a system. Hmm that sounds familiar.
    But the 2A states that it is a Right, not a privilege, nor does it mention any exceptions to the entitlement of this Right.

    Regulation = privilege.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Having a constitutional right doesn't mean it can't be regulated. It's not a blank check either. There is a reason why people often try to deflect simple questions such as what Himster directed. They have no answer.
    "The Right to bear arms shall not be infringed."

    Shall

    Not

    Be

    Infringed


    Definition of infringe

    transitive verb
    1: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another



    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post


    Ahh yes like the right to NOT have their kids to do lock down in place drills

    Sure.

    You guys just have truck attacks every other week, and have to defend yourselves with swordfish because your government has allowed butter knives!!
    Last edited by alhoon; February 07, 2020 at 12:58 AM. Reason: Triple post

  15. #95
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I thought I already answered that point:
    [...]
    As cool as Sherman tanks are, you can lump 75mm cannons in with howitzers, missile systems and tactical nukes as weapons for the purposes of my point.
    Blame my inability to make my sarcasm (directed at quoted post of The spartan) obvious.
    Last edited by Gigantus; February 06, 2020 at 11:27 PM.










  16. #96

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    Blame my inability to make my sarcasm (directed at quoted post of The spartan) obvious.
    My bad. When we've had variations of the same comment made about 30 times it can be difficult to spot which ones are sarcastic and which are genuine.



  17. #97
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Understandable, no issue.

    Always interesting to see a 200 year old phrasing aimed at circumstances 200 years ago getting perverted** for today's situation. Getting reminded of bible interpretation.
    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    Was the District of Columbia v. Heller case mentioned already?

    "One of the points at issue in the Heller case is whether the right to bear arms is related directly to service in a militia, or whether it’s an individual right conferred on every American. Opponents of gun control favor an individual rights reading, ignoring or minimizing the militia’s presence in the Second Amendment."

    The 5\4 ruling: Writing for the majority, Antonin Scalia argued that the operative clause of the amendment, “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed,” codifies an individual right derived from English common law and codified in the English Bill of Rights (1689).
    Dissent: Justice John Paul Stevens asserted that the court’s decision “fails to identify any new evidence supporting the view that the Amendment was intended to limit the power of Congress to regulate civilian uses of weapons.”

    A PDF with the complete opinion of the judges can be found here.

    ** Having an intended meaning altered or misrepresented
    Last edited by Gigantus; February 07, 2020 at 01:23 AM.










  18. #98

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by MarchOfThePigs View Post
    "The Right to bear arms shall not be infringed."


    Definition of infringe



    transitive verb
    1: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another

    Quoting the dictionary = instant win. WITH FACTS & LOGIC!
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  19. #99

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by MarchOfThePigs View Post
    "The Right to bear arms shall not be infringed."
    Shall
    Not
    Be
    Infringed
    Definition of infringe
    transitive verb
    1: to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another
    So, you're OK with arming convicts or the mentally ill?


    Quote Originally Posted by MarchOfThePigs View Post
    But the 2A states that it is a Right, not a privilege, nor does it mention any exceptions to the entitlement of this Right.
    Regulation = privilege.
    Pretty much every clause in the constitution is regulated one way or an other. You have free speech but you can't yell fire in a crowded theater as the cliche example goes. Supreme Court is OK with that.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; February 07, 2020 at 12:38 AM.
    The Armenian Issue

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Here is a section of the court's opinion I linked to earlier that seems to get totally ignored:

    Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited.
    It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.
    Somehow I doubt that automatic weapons and the like are "in common use".
    Last edited by Gigantus; February 07, 2020 at 01:41 AM.










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