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Thread: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

  1. #61

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    So, should children be able to buy guns?
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  2. #62

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Children used to own guns for decades. It only became a "scary thing" due to legacy media fearmongering.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    So, should children be able to buy guns?
    Reduction to absurdity.

    Try again.



  4. #64
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Children used to own guns for decades. It only became a "scary thing" due to legacy media fearmongering.
    ..and let's include the words "fun", family", and"sharing the experience", "My first rifle", "First Love. First Car. First Rimfire"



    Keep america safe. Guns are a bulwark against tyranny,and foreign invasions.How to Survive a Russian Invasion of the United States

    America is so comprised at this point in time that our national security is pretty much non-existent. Why? Our so called leaders belief and participation in a global economy!

    Oh dear.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  5. #65
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    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    delete

  6. #66

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Reduction to absurdity.

    Try again.
    What's absurd about it? #toddlersagainsttyranny
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  7. #67
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    - Should over-populated urban centers really have power to legislate over less densely-populated areas? There is an obvious disparity in political beliefs and values, and mob rule by urbanite population is a very destabilizing factor.
    I think this is the key point of this issue. The whole gun laws nonsense is merely obfuscation.
    There should be measures put in place to ensure the rights of minorities, this includes the rights of rural citizens whose will and needs are overshadowed by the louder and more numerous voices of the urban population whose needs/wills differ strongly and are often at odds with one another.

    - The reason why Democrats were elected in Virginia was because of influx of population from other blue states. Essentially what is happening is Democrat voters escape results of Democrat policies in blue states - only to vote for these policies in red states they just moved to. What changes need to be implemented to prevent that? If someone from a blue state moves to a red state, should his vote count for the previous state at least for the next one or two election cycles (and visa versa)?
    No changes. America is a Federal Republic, this is how a federal republic is meant to work.

    - Should media be held at least morally responsible for openly defaming gun-rights activists?
    It's a delicate line that needs to be walked. "Defamation" of this kind is achieved through popular opinion. Popular opinion is already against gun-rights activists. The nature of mass media is to reinforce previously established opinion. I don't see what can be done, except draconian censorship.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  8. #68

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    I think this is the key point of this issue. The whole gun laws nonsense is merely obfuscation.
    There should be measures put in place to ensure the rights of minorities, this includes the rights of rural citizens whose will and needs are overshadowed by the louder and more numerous voices of the urban population whose needs/wills differ strongly and are often at odds with one another.
    Gun rights are not the only issue, but they are very far from nonsense. It is easier to treat unarmed population worse then the armed one.
    No changes. America is a Federal Republic, this is how a federal republic is meant to work.
    The problem is people who run away from results of Democrat policies only to vote for those policies in the new state.
    It's a delicate line that needs to be walked. "Defamation" of this kind is achieved through popular opinion. Popular opinion is already against gun-rights activists. The nature of mass media is to reinforce previously established opinion. I don't see what can be done, except draconian censorship.
    Negative opinion of gun activists is result of smear campaign by mainstream media and anti-gun politicians, both stem from elites that would rather see population disarmed (as elites themselves enjoy guarded gated neighborhoods and armed bodyguards).
    So elites are clearly a problem.

  9. #69

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    My interpretation of the 2A's meaning is not limited by what the SCOTUS deems constitutional. I see creeping state bans (or attempted bans) on "assault weapons" (which are unlikely to be struck down) as being a threat to citizens' rights. Whether the Court deems them legal isn't particularly relevant to my opinion of them.
    What does that have to do with the 2A?
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    So rude.
    Well, you know, when you see a spade...
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    What evidence do you have that "owning an AR15 is protected by the 2A"? Seems to me that states like California have already banned them without any successful legal challenge. Manufacturers/owners have to update their models to conform to the law.
    I never said it was, I was speaking to the limits to what Americans believe regarding ARs and the 2A.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Just say "Yes. Yes they are lying".

    Sure, if you want to have a grade-level take on party primaries, they are lying. Would you consider that noteworthy?
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    The boy's a conservative!
    No, just a Liberal.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Even I (Señor "Partisan Hack") can see the reason in limiting full autos.
    Why? So the tyrants can have an edge when the revolution begins?
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Well I'm glad we can agree that many of the proposals made by leading Democrats are "unfeasible". That doesn't mean they're not going to try and limit gun freedoms if they get elected.
    How?
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    1. The key is in the "weapons of war" rationale. The whole point of the 2A is to give citizens access to arms with which they can depose a hypothetically tyrannical government. When the libs. start whining about how regulated assault rifles/semi-automatic hand guns are "weapons of war", that means that they've disregarded the 2A's primary function. That's the central reason why I don't think the progs. have any limiting principles on this.
    I never quite followed this line of reasoning: if the point of the 2A is, in fact, to allow citizens to resist a tyrannical government, why are proponents of this interpretation comfortable with restrictions on many types of weapons that would be incredibly useful in that instance? I mean, you are for restricting citizen access to mortars and grenade launchers, right? Why? Those would be incredibly useful in resisting a tyrannical takeover. If this is your view, where are you drawing your line on weapon access?
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    2. I'm confident that you're familiar with the basics of how legislation is passed and/or challenged in the courts.
    Good, then you would know how the 2A isn't really close to being threatened right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Bernie Panders?
    Classic.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    When the Trump hysteria is over and we've moved onto the next Republican demon that needs slaying, you'll understand.
    You mean like harping that the Libs are coming for law abiding citizen's guns?
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    "When you're older, kiddo. Here, let me show you my 2016 meme war medal instead..."
    It only cost functional governance.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I never knew you'd become such a convert to the rationale of the Trump train.
    Hey, if it works, it works.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    What does that have to do with the 2A?
    VA limiting 2A rights concerns the 2A.

    Well, you know, when you see a spade...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I never said it was, I was speaking to the limits to what Americans believe regarding ARs and the 2A.
    According to Pew, most Americans do not believe that AR's are covered by the 2A.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pew Research
    The groups [gun owners vs. non gun owners] are more divided when it comes to three other policy proposals: creating a federal database to track gun sales; banning assault-style weapons; and banning high-capacity magazines. Even so, significant shares of gun owners are open to these proposals. Roughly half of gun owners (54%) say they would favor creating a federal database, and 48% favor a ban on assault weapons. Some 44% of gun owners favor banning high-capacity magazines. Support for these proposals is much higher among non-gun owners, with about three-quarters or more saying they would support each of these proposals.
    Sure, if you want to have a grade-level take on party primaries, they are lying. Would you consider that noteworthy?
    I just wanted to hear you say it.

    No, just a Liberal.
    Nobody's perfect.

    Why? So the tyrants can have an edge when the revolution begins?
    The further the tyrants' advantage, the greater the people's glory!

    How?
    See:

    -> Post 49 and;
    -> Post 51

    I never quite followed this line of reasoning: if the point of the 2A is, in fact, to allow citizens to resist a tyrannical government, why are proponents of this interpretation comfortable with restrictions on many types of weapons that would be incredibly useful in that instance? I mean, you are for restricting citizen access to mortars and grenade launchers, right? Why? Those would be incredibly useful in resisting a tyrannical takeover. If this is your view, where are you drawing your line on weapon access?
    The wording of the amendment is as follows: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The "security of a free State" would be jeopardized if radicals, gangsters, terrorists and psychopaths were able to hold the country to ransom with howitzers, missile systems, tactical nukes etc. For my part, I wouldn't mind if fully automatic weapons were largely unrestricted (though I'm happy to compromise on that point), but once semi-automatic rifles or "assault weapons" are removed then the people would no longer possess the capacity to resist the state. A militia equipped with six-shooters and blunderbusses is as good as disarmed.

    Good, then you would know how the 2A isn't really close to being threatened right now.
    Yes, because the federal government isn't controlled by Democrats.

    Classic.
    I thought it was pretty original personally.

    You mean like harping that the Libs are coming for law abiding citizen's guns?
    A few thousand 2A absolutists marching in VA isn't the same as the entire liberal establishment (D.C, the press, academia etc.) throwing an unrelenting temper tantrum for four years (and not just in the US). Once they've moved on and the frothing has receded, you'll realize that I wasn't such a Trump loyalist after all.

    It only cost functional governance.
    As per my arguments in the the impeachment thread Trump is a consequence of institutional damage, not the cause of it. In any case, if this is what dysfunction looks like (improved living standards, the continuation of peace and increasing life expectancy) then we don't much need "functional governance" after all. Roll back the state I say.

    Hey, if it works, it works.
    It only works if you don't concede that the Democratic candidates were lying!
    Last edited by Cope; February 02, 2020 at 07:21 PM.



  11. #71

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    VA limiting 2A rights concerns the 2A.
    Apparently not, unless the law has caused a change in interpretation of the 2A.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    What a drama queen. I didn't refer to you as a bad guy, just a partisan hack.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    According to Pew, most Americans do not believe that AR's are covered by the 2A.
    Ok? Am I missing a point here? Maybe you want to give that part of the post you are responding to another read.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I just wanted to hear you say it.
    Grade school logic is so cute.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Nobody's perfect.
    We can't all be partisan hacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    The further the tyrants' advantage, the greater the people's glory!
    Then take away the guns, duh.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    See:
    -> Post 49 and;
    -> Post 51
    You never said how, you just said:
    Step 1: Ban certain gun sales
    Step 2:????
    Step 3: Tyranny

    To use a trending argument template: Slippery slope argument, try again.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    The wording of the amendment is as follows: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." The "security of a free State" would be jeopardized if radicals, gangsters, terrorists and psychopaths were able to hold the country to ransom with howitzers, missile systems, tactical nukes etc. For my part, I wouldn't mind if fully automatic weapons were largely unrestricted (though I'm happy to compromise on that point), but once semi-automatic rifles or "assault weapons" are removed then the people would no longer possess the capacity to resist the state. A militia equipped with six-shooters and blunderbusses is as good as disarmed.
    Wait, why are you placing the capacity to resist the state at ARs? What is magical about the AR that makes it necessary in resisting the state that doesn't apply to other weaponry I have mentioned?
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Yes, because the federal government isn't controlled by Democrats.
    Ya need two thirds in both houses to change an amendment. I don't see Dems getting that anytime soon.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I thought it was pretty original personally.
    I am so sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    A few thousand 2A absolutists marching in VA isn't the same as the entire liberal establishment (D.C, the press, academia etc.) throwing an unrelenting temper tantrum for four years (and not just in the US).
    Yeah, 2A alarmists are limited to a few thousand people marching in VA. Right.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Once they've moved on and the frothing has receded, you'll realize that I wasn't such a Trump loyalist after all.
    You will kick him to the curb eventually, like the Right did with Bush, but not before you swing him like a bat as hard as you can. Until then, well, I don't think I have ever seen someone so radically change their foreign policy views in real time before.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    As per my arguments in the the impeachment thread Trump is a consequence of institutional damage, not the cause of it.
    Never said Trump was the cause of it. No where on these forums have I ever said that. I appreciate the hack characterization, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    In any case, if this is what dysfunction looks like (improved living standards, the continuation of peace and increasing life expectancy) then we don't much need "functional governance" after all. Roll back the state I say.
    Didn't say it was currently dysfunctional either. I was saying the cost of partisan hackery is, ultimately, functional governance.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    It only works if you don't concede that the Democratic candidates were lying!
    What? Of course it still works. I don't remember seeing a change in the rules.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  12. #72

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    You never said how, you just said:
    Step 1: Ban certain gun sales
    Step 2:????
    Step 3: Tyranny

    To use a trending argument template: Slippery slope argument, try again.
    Slippery slope is kind of real when it comes to government infringements on individual freedoms, so he is correct.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    The Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms.

    It is a RIGHT, not a privilege.


    There are no exceptions.

    Any law preventing someone from owning a firearm, of any kind, is unconstitutional, and illegal.

  14. #74
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by MarchOfThePigs View Post
    The Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms.

    It is a RIGHT, not a privilege.


    There are no exceptions.

    Any law preventing someone from owning a firearm, of any kind, is unconstitutional, and illegal.
    Uuuhhhmmm….. no exceptions?
    People in prisons?
    The mentally ill?
    Suspected terrorists?
    Known criminals?
    Children?
    Those under the influence of controlled substances?
    Illegal immigrants?
    Aeroplane passengers?
    Visitors to the White House?
    Tourists? (I have to admit that when I was a tourist in Atlanta, I wielded a .50 desert eagle and it was epic)

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Gun rights are not the only issue, but they are very far from nonsense. It is easier to treat unarmed population worse then the armed one.


    As a European... yeah, it carries all of the hallmarks of being the definition of American nonsense. Also, it seems by statistics, that an armed population treats itself worse than an unarmed population, such that mistreatment from the government becomes superfluous.

    Negative opinion of gun activists is result of smear campaign by mainstream media and anti-gun politicians, both stem from elites that would rather see population disarmed (as elites themselves enjoy guarded gated neighborhoods and armed bodyguards).
    So elites are clearly a problem
    Negative opinion on guns is the default the world over with practically zero media influence on the topic, only America is aberrant in this regard.
    About half of Americans support stricter gun control regulations. Are you saying that half of Americans live in gated communities?

    Slippery slope is kind of real when it comes to government infringements on individual freedoms.
    By the same token, would you say that the requirement to have a driving licence (based on suitability) to use a car indicated a long term plan, by the government, to infringe upon individual freedoms or to even deprive the population of their use?
    Cars and guns are dangerous, it only makes good sense that there should be reasonable limitations on those who can be permitted their use.

    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  15. #75

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    An opinion of a former mafia hit man, and under boss...


  16. #76

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    As a European... yeah, it carries all of the hallmarks of being the definition of American nonsense. Also, it seems by statistics, that an armed population treats itself worse than an unarmed population, such that mistreatment from the government becomes superfluous.

    Citizens of certain European countries have significantly less individual freedoms then Americans do, which is the point.
    Negative opinion on guns is the default the world over with practically zero media influence on the topic, only America is aberrant in this regard.
    About half of Americans support stricter gun control regulations. Are you saying that half of Americans live in gated communities?
    it is only negative as "default" in authoritarian regimes or authoritarian-leaning regimes.
    As for public opinion, it was already pointed out to be mainly result of smear campaign and misniformation from corporate media and politicians, both institutions being coincidentally owned by elite. Hence why we never see any real grassroots anti-gun movements, but plenty for the opposite.
    By the same token, would you say that the requirement to have a driving licence (based on suitability) to use a car indicated a long term plan, by the government, to infringe upon individual freedoms or to even deprive the population of their use?
    Cars and guns are dangerous, it only makes good sense that there should be reasonable limitations on those who can be permitted their use.
    [/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
    You can't defend yourself from criminals or tyrants with cars.

  17. #77

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Uuuhhhmmm….. no exceptions?
    People in prisons?
    The mentally ill?
    Suspected terrorists?
    Known criminals?
    Children?
    Those under the influence of controlled substances?
    Illegal immigrants?
    Aeroplane passengers?
    Visitors to the White House?
    Tourists? (I have to admit that when I was a tourist in Atlanta, I wielded a .50 desert eagle and it was epic)



    As a European... yeah, it carries all of the hallmarks of being the definition of American nonsense. Also, it seems by statistics, that an armed population treats itself worse than an unarmed population, such that mistreatment from the government becomes superfluous.


    Negative opinion on guns is the default the world over with practically zero media influence on the topic, only America is aberrant in this regard.
    About half of Americans support stricter gun control regulations. Are you saying that half of Americans live in gated communities?



    By the same token, would you say that the requirement to have a driving licence (based on suitability) to use a car indicated a long term plan, by the government, to infringe upon individual freedoms or to even deprive the population of their use?
    Cars and guns are dangerous, it only makes good sense that there should be reasonable limitations on those who can be permitted their use.
    [/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

    Show me where at, in the Constitution, that it says your Rights may be revoked, arbitrarily, especially with respect to the 2A.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Having a constitutional right doesn't mean it can't be regulated. It's not a blank check either. There is a reason why people often try to deflect simple questions such as what Himster directed. They have no answer.
    The Armenian Issue

  19. #79

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Having a constitutional right doesn't mean it can't be regulated. It's not a blank check either. There is a reason why people often try to deflect simple questions such as what Himster directed. They have no answer.
    Himster's questions were answered and not deflected, explaining why regulation by state is more dangerous then civilian gun ownership. Literally the first two posts above yours.

  20. #80

    Default Re: Thousands peacefully protest for Constitutional gun rights in Virginia, legacy media screeches, WV offers to annex pro-2A counties

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Himster's questions were answered and not deflected, explaining why regulation by state is more dangerous then civilian gun ownership. Literally the first two posts above yours.
    Can you spot the exact place where someone addressed people in prison, mentally ill, or known criminals buying a gun? I could not see it.
    The Armenian Issue

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