Sexual abuse among the Amish (and religious communities in general).

[Cohors_Evocata]

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifesty...incest-me-too/

An unconventional source for this forum I suppose, but a fruitful one nonetheless. The author summarizes the results of a year-long collaborative investigation of the Amish as the existence of a culture in which sexual abuse, often of minors, is not only widespread, but an open secret. Children are isolated from the outside world not just by lack of access to technology, but by language and a separate schooling course. Victims are encouraged to forgive their abusers, often family members, without due punishment of the latter and discouraged from seeking justice or help outside the community, even to the point of drugging them into comatose silence. As the article so chillingly puts it: "We're told it's not Christlike to report".

The last few years have seen disgusting revelations come to light of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church and other religious communities. Discussion has flared up on whether garments like the hijab are compatible with "Western values" like equality of the sexes. And here a rotting cesspool of deplorable behaviour presents itself in the heart of America. The Amish, such quant representatives of the good old, simple life are recast as clans of incestuous rapists. Can the Western world abide by the presence of communities which claim the right to isolate themselves from modern society and abuse their members outside any legal control?

I admit, my choice of words is somewhat dramatic, but there's potentially a serious problem with identifying and prosecuting abuse in communities like these. What, if anything, should be done about it? Also, I assume this thread fits best in the EMM forum, but if not, please move it somewhere else.

[alhoon]

Moved from the EMM

[Love Mountain]

You don't really need a source anyway. Sexual abuse perpetrated by church affiliated persons is well documented and well known. There could be some interesting debate regarding how complicit the church is, as an organization, but the frequent occurrence is beyond question.

[Gromovnik]

Hey, let's start a cult where we pretend it's 1732! What could possibly go wrong?

[Aexodus]

I’m not sure about this one tbh. My instinct would be that no-one should follow a diffdifferent set of rules, but this contradicts American policy in regard to Indian reserves. So i don’t know.

What I will say is, yet again we have organised religion resulting in abuse of children and of trust by church leaders.

[Common Soldier]

You don't really need a source anyway. Sexual abuse perpetrated by church affiliated persons is well documented and well known. There could be some interesting debate regarding how complicit the church is, as an organization, but the frequent occurrence is beyond question.

Sexual abuse not related to thr church is also well documented as well. While religious related sexual abuse gets a lot of press, sexual abuse not religiously related exist as well, if not as widely reported. If would be curious to see whether sexual abuse is any more prevalent in religious institutions as non religious ones. So far, I haven't seen any statistics one way or the other.

The abuse by Dr Nassar at Michigan State Univerairy went on for decades before it was finally revealed makes one wonder how many more similar cases like that have been hushed up. There is alao rhe Jerry Sansusky's scandal at Penn State, ans Inwonder if it wouls have ever made it to the national new at all if it hadn't involved a well known coach like Joe Patterno. The point is that sex scandals are not confined to religious institutions, ane I wondsr how often such sex scandals occur in local schools, but never get reported beyond the local news.

[Gromovnik]

TBH, Love Mountain never claimed that the abuse is confined to religious institutions.

[Common Soldier]

TBH, Love Mountain never claimed that the abuse is confined to religious institutions.

No one ever claimed Love Mountain did. But focussing only on religious institutions can give a misleading impression that in religious institutions, the problem was worse and that has no proven to be the case.

Simply because the media doesn't give as much attention to non religious institutions, doesn't mean the problem isn't as widespread as in religious ones, or that cover ups were not occurring in them. And that needs to be said to put the issue in perspective.

[Love Mountain]

Nasser's case was in the news cycle for weeks. So I'm not sure why you brought up his case specifically.

[Common Soldier]

Nasser's case was in the news cycle for weeks. So I'm not sure why you brought up his case specifically.

I thought I made the point pretty obvious. Nassar was abusing children for decades before his actions were finally brought to light. Institutions ignored complaints for years, what religious institutions did was no different than what non religious institutions did in similar circumstances. Nassar was a well known case, which is why I menrioned it, but there were other cases that aremsimply less well known.

I could have mentioned others, like USAG coach in Kentucky Robert Dean Head, or Georgia coach William McCabe, or Mark.Scheifelbein. Why are you complaining about what I wrote, which is factual? What was yor reason to tocus soley on religious institutions, and ignore similar problems innnon religious institutions?

[Love Mountain]

My reason for ignoring other institutions was because the OP is about specifically religious sexual abuse. Moreover as was stated before the Nasser and USAG scandal has been widely covered since it first broke out. There were consequences. On the other hand religious sexual abuse is not only much wider in scope and longer in terms of time, but on going. Pointing this out does not diminish other forms of sexual abuse, your finger wagging and attempts to point out some kind of double standard however, doesnt put you in a good light.

[Common Soldier]

My reason for ignoring other institutions was because the OP is about specifically religious sexual abuse. Moreover as was stated before the Nasser and USAG scandal has been widely covered since it first broke out.

But the abuse had been going on for years before the story broke, and it was widespread. Abuses in religious communities have also been widely reported, I hear about sex scandals of Catholic priest all the way in South America, so it is not honest to say that the sex scandals of religious communities haven't been reported.

There were consequences. On the other hand religious sexual abuse is not only much wider in scope and longer in terms of time, but on going. Pointing this out does not diminish other forms of sexual abuse, your finger wagging and attempts to point out some kind of double standard however, doesnt put you in a good light.

The question is is it any worse than what is going on in the general public, and that hasn't been proved. Nassar is just one of many secular sex scandals, the Harvey Weinstein for example, and Epstein. It is your double standard, and actions that don't put you into a good light. The Op Ed implies that the sexual abuse is someone worse in religious communities, but doesn't provide any real facts to support those claims. As I said, I brought up other, non religious sex scandals to show that the abuse is not confined to religious communities, nor necessarily even worse. Sexual abuse is pretty widespread outside the religious communities, and while the media does report some of it, there may be a lot more that the media doesn't report widely.

It sounds to me that you are upset because I challenged the implied claim that sexual abuse is worse in religious in religious communities. Implied, rather than explicitly stated, because they don't really have facts to support the claims. It is the media's favorite tactic, they report some abuses on the front page, and the others abuses back on page 30, and try to pretend to be objective when reporting because they reported both. With the same claims we could claim that universities promote a widespread and long standing pattern of abuse too. The gymnastics abuse is just one that has been exposed, and it was widespread. One may wonder how many other abuses are out there that have not been reported.

Can you provide facts to show that sexual abuse is any more frequent in religious institutions, or that religious institutions than non religious institution are more likely to hide the fact?

[Love Mountain]

But the abuse had been going on for years before the story broke, and it was widespread. Abuses in religious communities have also been widely reported, I hear about sex scandals of Catholic priest all the way in South America, so it is not honest to say that the sex scandals of religious communities haven't been reported.

So what's your point? Nobody said that the USG scandal should be ignored or wasn't important.

The question is is it any worse than what is going on in the general public, and that hasn't been proved. Nassar is just one of many secular sex scandals, the Harvey Weinstein for example, and Epstein. It is your double standard, and actions that don't put you into a good light. The Op Ed implies that the sexual abuse is someone worse in religious communities, but doesn't provide any real facts to support those claims. As I said, I brought up other, non religious sex scandals to show that the abuse is not confined to religious communities, nor necessarily even worse. Sexual abuse is pretty widespread outside the religious communities, and while the media does report some of it, there may be a lot more that the media doesn't report widely.

There is no double standard when people point out sexual abuse that are endemic in particular communities. It's not particularly inflammatory to point out sexual abuse that's common, if not rampant, in religious communities. It is especially disturbing when particularly rich and powerful churches are complicit in covering such incidents up.

It sounds to me that you are upset because I challenged the implied claim that sexual abuse is worse in religious in religious communities. Implied, rather than explicitly stated, because they don't really have facts to support the claims. It is the media's favorite tactic, they report some abuses on the front page, and the others abuses back on page 30, and try to pretend to be objective when reporting because they reported both. With the same claims we could claim that universities promote a widespread and long standing pattern of abuse too. The gymnastics abuse is just one that has been exposed, and it was widespread. One may wonder how many other abuses are out there that have not been reported.

Can you provide facts to show that sexual abuse is any more frequent in religious institutions, or that religious institutions than non religious institution are more likely to hide the fact?

The only one who seems to be upset here is you. You're welcome to open up your own thread about sexual abuse in general.

[Common Soldier]

So what's your point? Nobody said that the USG scandal should be ignored or wasn't important.

So what is your pont in the question above? Inever claimed oe implied tha anyone innthis thread was denying the USG, so why are you teying to imply I did, as you are doing by bringing up the fact.

There is no double standard when people point out sexual abuse that are endemic in particular communities. It's not particularly inflammatory to point out sexual abuse that's common, if not rampant, in religious communities. It is especially disturbing when particularly rich and powerful churches are complicit in covering such incidents up.

There is, when claimint it is endemic they refuae to answer the simple question is any more endemic in these communities han he populatioj at large with actual facts.

I havs read papers that claim 10% of rhe children innthe US experience some form of sexual abuse. Is thr rate higher in the religious comunities?

The only one who seems to be upset here is you. You're welcome to open up your own thread about sexual abuse in general.

You and others been implying I have said things I didn't, getting upset because I challenge implicit claims that were being made without facts (which ar why they were implicit not explicit claims.)

You have made claims that the abuse was "endemic" without giving specific quantities as to what mean by "endemic". I have asked this question, repeat it, so stop evading it: is the abuse any more endemic than in the general population? What is the percentage and how does that compare to the percentage in thr general population?

[Gromovnik]

Anyway, is there any proof that sexual abuse in secular context has been underreported?

[Common Soldier]

Anyway, is there any proof that sexual abuse in secular context has been underreported?

Yes, according to this article. See the highlighted section below. You can read the rest of the paper in the link given.

This paper was intended to understand the magnitude and issues related to child sexual abuse. The prevalence of CSA was found to be high in India as well as throughout the world. CSA is an extensive problem and even the lowest prevalence includes a huge number of victims. Three main issues have been identified that makes it difficult to estimate exactly how many children are victims of CSA. Firstly, the way abuse is defined plays an important role. Secondly, the cases reported by the official organizations usually underrate the number of victims as many cases never get reported to them. Thirdly, different studies report the prevalence for different time periods, for e.g., few give data on number of children abused in one year, others give numbers based on children ever abused in their lifetime, and few others involve adults who recall and report their childhood abuses. The prevalence of CSA is alarming; hence, stringent measures should be taken for its prevention and control. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4311357/

[Love Mountain]

So what is your pont in the question above? Inever claimed oe implied tha anyone innthis thread was denying the USG, so why are you teying to imply I did, as you are doing by bringing up the fact.

What? And the one who brought up USG was you, in a thread explicitly about sexual abuse in religious communities.

There is, when claimint it is endemic they refuae to answer the simple question is any more endemic in these communities han he populatioj at large with actual facts.

I havs read papers that claim 10% of rhe children innthe US experience some form of sexual abuse. Is thr rate higher in the religious comunities?

You're saying sexual abuse isn't found regularly within certain churches? Sects? Or as this article claims, Amish?

You and others been implying I have said things I didn't, getting upset because I challenge implicit claims that were being made without facts (which ar why they were implicit not explicit claims.)

You have made claims that the abuse was "endemic" without giving specific quantities as to what mean by "endemic". I have asked this question, repeat it, so stop evading it: is the abuse any more endemic than in the general population? What is the percentage and how does that compare to the percentage in thr general population?

Pot calling the kettle black. Here's my post,

"You don't really need a source anyway. Sexual abuse perpetrated by church affiliated persons is well documented and well known. There could be some interesting debate regarding how complicit the church is, as an organization, but the frequent occurrence is beyond question."

And here's your confrontational response,

"Sexual abuse not related to thr church is also well documented as well. While religious related sexual abuse gets a lot of press, sexual abuse not religiously related exist as well, if not as widely reported. If would be curious to see whether sexual abuse is any more prevalent in religious institutions as non religious ones. So far, I haven't seen any statistics one way or the other.

The abuse by Dr Nassar at Michigan State Univerairy went on for decades before it was finally revealed makes one wonder how many more similar cases like that have been hushed up. There is alao rhe Jerry Sansusky's scandal at Penn State, ans Inwonder if it wouls have ever made it to the national new at all if it hadn't involved a well known coach like Joe Patterno. The point is that sex scandals are not confined to religious institutions, ane I wondsr how often such sex scandals occur in local schools, but never get reported beyond the local news."

As you can see nobody said sexual abuse doesn't occur outside of religious communities nor did anyone insinuate that it happens more often in churches. The only one who hinted at this, is you. If you're going to get all uppity about it, have fun, but I'm not going to entertain your attempts to grab my attention for the rest of this thread.

[Gromovnik]

Yes, according to this article. See the highlighted section below. You can read the rest of the paper in the link given.

It only says that CSA is underreported in general. It doesn't say that there is a concerted effort to underreport it in a secular context, while overreporting it in churches/religious communities. Also, the article interprets the following passage: "Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, andquestioning (LGBTQ) youth are more likelyto have experienced sexual abuse than heterosexual youth. However, sexual abusedoes not “cause” heterosexual youth to become LGBTQ." as: "Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender (LGBT) are more prone to CSA." Which is a bit weird.