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Thread: Missile units

  1. #1

    Default Missile units

    Hello guys,
    Crossbowmen, archers etc, are ridiculously overpowered, Knights, basically horse riders or mounted units are struggling to defeat them, there is no point of recruiting foot soldiers since archers can fight ** Knights on horses with ease. Totally agree that some units can be strong ranged and foot soldiers but this should be kinda special/rare thing, currently peasant crossbowmen are frickin rambos
    Is there a plan to fix this or maybe a submod?
    (btw great mod otherwise)

  2. #2
    Miles
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    Default Re: Missile units

    It sounds like you are talking about missile units in melee rather than the actual missile attack of these units. There are definitely some weird morale things going on in this mod where sometimes peasant archers will take a wedged shock cavalry charge to the rear and then stand there and fight to the death for 4 minutes without routing even after their general is dead, and then there are elite melee units that will route within seconds of crossing swords because they don't like what they see. Archers will still route quickly if you flank them, you may need to use 2 units per enemy archer unit to eliminate them.

    As for missile attacks, they are very strong. Several crossbowmen can basically destroy an entire wedged cavalry unit before it can charge. What puzzles me is that while all bow units have 40 missile attack, there is a wild difference in actual damage output between bow units. For example my Byzantine archers were doing barely any damage, but as the Zengids my Junior Ghulam foot archers deal lots of damage very quickly despite both units having 40 missile attack. There are probably some invisible things going on behind the scenes.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Missile units

    Sorry,
    yeah I mean missile units and their melee capability, the strength of actual arrows and bolts is fine imo, I mean when missile units fight close combat they are superb, you charge with knights into crossbowmen formation and they just shrug it of and continue fighting for 5 min like nothings happens, there is no point of using actual melee units since archers/crossbowmen in melee are just as good. Many times I try to flank with cavarly to engage units and the attacks just gets shredded by peasant crossbowmen in close combat ( horse units vs said missile units).

  4. #4

    Default Re: Missile units

    We want to break the convention that archers or any soldiers using ranged weapon are squishy just because they're missile units. Archers in the medieval era were professional or hardened soldiers competent in melee.

    However, I do agree that missile unit's resilience against cavalry charges are way too high. It need to be rebalanced, so flanking and blitzing archers out of position are effective. In the same time, we are adamant that we'll never make missile unit man-per-man have lesser melee skills just because they're missile unit - missile units will always have the exact same melee skills as melee unit of the same skill level. Wait for next update, you'll have your cavalry and melee units capable of beating most missile units in melee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Artannis Wolfrunner View Post
    What puzzles me is that while all bow units have 40 missile attack, there is a wild difference in actual damage output between bow units. For example my Byzantine archers were doing barely any damage, but as the Zengids my Junior Ghulam foot archers deal lots of damage very quickly despite both units having 40 missile attack. There are probably some invisible things going on behind the scenes.
    Accuracy and Reload skill.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Missile units

    When are you guys planning on updating?

    Also, you can have strong archer units with ability to melee and then you can just edit the rules and morale db tables so that stuff like fighting cavalry and getting hit in the flanks has a greater effect on morale and can cause them to rout.

    That way they are badasses but they also arent super human. Very possible to have your cake and eat it if you play around with all the db tables and not just the land units db
    Last edited by Athos187; January 16, 2020 at 12:29 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Missile units

    Here's your cake Hahaha, I made this submod a few days ago, javelin's and archer's morale go with your general's zeal so army composition and battles are more dynamic with archers doing long range damage, can be able to fight/hold off at least one unit before they waver and heavy cavalry charges have a satisfying charge effect on missile units that route them if done properly, (You can't use 1 cavalry to route all the archers though because outnumbering your enemies even cavalry as archers will help you fight since you notice you can win with numbers, but if you use light cavalry you could possibly lose to being outnumbered faster by archers with combat skills and weapons, especially good armor. Enjoy and please give Feedback : https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...rhaul-Beta-0-5
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos187 View Post
    When are you guys planning on updating?

    Also, you can have strong archer units with ability to melee and then you can just edit the rules and morale db tables so that stuff like fighting cavalry and getting hit in the flanks has a greater effect on morale and can cause them to rout.

    That way they are badasses but they also arent super human. Very possible to have your cake and eat it if you play around with all the db tables and not just the land units db

  7. #7

    Default Re: Missile units

    Dont think that is quite what the modding team had in mind in terms of professional archers, I actually like the idea of missile troops being melee troops as well and it is something I am integrating into a lot of my own mods.

    I just think by editing other db tables like morale, rules and battle entities they can have the strong archer units and also give them more realistic weaknesses that can be exploited by the player.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Missile units

    Welp if it's not your taste then no worries, P.S. I did edit morale, kv_rules, and battle entities and I seem to have fixed these issues cause I play the game as well and found it a little troubling. So far none of my battles have been the same and they are more challenging, there is not much room to exploit but it has good challenging battles that require your attention, reaction, and tactics that I wanted to accomplish in my submod. Enjoy your search, I'll enjoy these interesting battles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos187 View Post
    Dont think that is quite what the modding team had in mind in terms of professional archers, I actually like the idea of missile troops being melee troops as well and it is something I am integrating into a lot of my own mods.

    I just think by editing other db tables like morale, rules and battle entities they can have the strong archer units and also give them more realistic weaknesses that can be exploited by the player.
    Last edited by Mugen234; January 16, 2020 at 09:47 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Missile units

    Quote Originally Posted by You_Guess_Who View Post
    We want to break the convention that archers or any soldiers using ranged weapon are squishy just because they're missile units. Archers in the medieval era were professional or hardened soldiers competent in melee.
    That is reasonable and accurate, but within the game's context it devalues a large bulk of the melee infantry. Archers, particularly crossbowmen, should probably be much more expensive than spearmen, if they got twice the training (ranged and melee) and equipment to show for it.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Missile units

    Quote Originally Posted by Sver View Post
    That is reasonable and accurate, but within the game's context it devalues a large bulk of the melee infantry. Archers, particularly crossbowmen, should probably be much more expensive than spearmen, if they got twice the training (ranged and melee) and equipment to show for it.
    In England, the longbowmen of the Hundred Years war period, were typically paid half that of a billman.
    They were mustered for a campaign and disbanded at the end of it.

    Only professional English longbowmen would those in royal or noble retinues or mercenary soldiers in free companies.
    The rest were ordinary folk who just had a longbow and whatever bits and pieces of armour they could accumulate or were issued with.
    Weapons would be short sword / dagger and that's about it. And a mallet.
    The mustered longbowmen weren't given any training in melee fighting, if they survived they may learn if they fought in several campaigns.
    Seasoned campaigners would try and teach newly recruited longbowmen the basics whilst on campaign.
    In certain circumstances they could be useful as light infantry but one-on-one wouldn't last long against professional infantry on solid ground.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Missile units

    Exactly, my reply was focusing specifically on those units which (behave as if) they were given melee training - as is the problem of the OP.

    Do add to the previous post, various game abstractions should also be taken into account, since the player in Total War is more of a country than a king over feudal lords. Which means that the cost of equipment (and a crossbow is a reasonably expensive piece of equipment, more so than a spear at least), and its repair/replacement, and supply of ammunition (and every arrow is hand-made) is all on the player.
    Last edited by Leonardo; January 26, 2020 at 06:10 AM. Reason: Posts merged.

  12. #12
    Condottiere SOG's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Missile units

    Archers and crossbowmen were quite functional as melee soldiers being the basis of infantry in most medieval armies. Particularly with England and France and imitator states. This logic also took hold during the Italian Wars. Only levies tended to run, if at all, and the rest of the runners are in fables and movies. The thought of plunder was of interest to the Medieval soldier and kept him on the battlefield more than anything else. Arrows, bolts, long knives and hammers easily brought down mounts and killed mounted warriors in melee. English and French archers fought along side men-at-arms in most battles of the Hundred Years' war

    I am surprised in game that most infantry do not use "counter_cavalry_tactics" or carry buckler shields(missile troops) in all tiers like they would have if not more properly armed. Buckler shields were easy to make.
    Archer/Crossbowmen Sergeants tend to be the core of my armies, in-game.

    Instead of giving cavalry "wedge_formation"(a rare occurrence, if at all), give them "trample" which is how cavalry more easily dispersed infantry in shock actions. Medieval mounted warriors trained their mounts to bash and spar in melee.

    These are changes I intend to make if they are not made so...
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