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Thread: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

  1. #461
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    The legality of the assassination of General Soleimani is not a controversial subject, as it undeniably violates the terms, according to which the American military presence in Iraq is tolerated. Namely, the Iraqi government had not given her consent, which means that the drone attack also broke international law. Given that Washington has so far failed to support its claim about the assassination being an act of self-defense aimed at an individual plotting against the United States (after all, the Iraqi Prime-Minister has already explained that Soleimani had arrived in Baghdad following the invitation of the government, under the capacity of diplomatic envoy of Iran), Donald's action also constitued a breach of the Hague and Genava Conventions, especially if we take into account the fact that, together with Suleimani, members of the Popular Mobilisation Forces were also killed, who are legally considered as members of Iraq's army. Of course, the same observation also applies for the dozens of PMF soldiers, who were killed during the previous retaliatory strikes.

    Meanwhile, for a change, there's a positive reaction to the American operation: ISIL has proudly approved of the murder of Iraqi and Iranian officers, calling it a divine act against its evil enemies.

  2. #462
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Absolutely.
    ---

    Trump Declares War · LRB - London Review of Books - the most successful literary publication in Europe.I highly recommend the LRB.

    ...It’s hard to explain Trump’s decision other than as a response to insult, since such a dangerous escalation seems inconsistent with his aversion to foreign wars, and his (so far) unerring sensitivity to his right-wing isolationist base. As Robert Malley of the International Crisis Group remarked on Twitter, killing Soleimani is for all intents and purposes a declaration of war against Iran. It is, of course, possible that Trump is unaware of this, or that he imagines that Iran ‘can’t do anything’ in response and will simply absorb the blow – in which case he is hallucinating.

    Not for the first time, the American government has proved an objective ally of Iran’s hardliners. The man once known as the living martyr would be smiling.
    --
    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Huh?
    My friend, The Gurkhan is quite right when he says, "Just as you would have opposed Iran in the 1950s under a government which would have been completely at odds with the current one ironically" .#463
    and, #153 ( it's about the imperialism and its endless wars)
    Last edited by Ludicus; January 10, 2020 at 10:28 AM.
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  3. #463
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-...020/index.html

    There is increasing consensus between the Europeans, Americans, and Canada that Iran accidentally shot down Flight 752. Iran is also refusing to give up the black boxes to anyone. Nothing to hide right?

  4. #464
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Iran is also refusing to give up the black boxes to anyone.
    Nope. Iran invites both Ukraine and Boeing to investigate plane ...

    ...it will also welcome experts from other countries' whose citizens died in the crash.
    In fact, Ukrainian experts have already arrived in Iran, and US experts and a 10-member delegation from Canada is also expected to travel.According to the news, "the investigation would include experts who worked on the investigation into the 2014 downing of Malaysia Airlines"

    ---
    In his first campaign election rally of 2020,I heard Trump saying that he served up... "American justice" .
    Referencing the 2019 Nobel Prize winner, Ethiopian PM Abiy Ahmed, the grandiloquent lunatic said that he himself deserved the honour instead,
    I made a deal. I saved a country, and I just heard that the head of that country is now getting the Nobel Peace Prize for saving the country. “I said, ‘What?’
    Quousque tandem, Trump..?
    Last edited by Ludicus; January 10, 2020 at 11:12 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  5. #465
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    My friend, The Gurkhan is quite right when he says, "Just as you would have opposed Iran in the 1950s under a government which would have been completely at odds with the current one ironically" .#463
    and, #153 ( it's about the imperialism and its endless wars)
    I’m asking for clarification of what his accusation via a hypothetical scenario is referring to. It doesn’t make sense as presented.

  6. #466
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Nope. Iran invites both Ukraine and Boeing to investigate plane ...



    In fact, Ukrainian experts have already arrived in Iran, and US experts and a 10-member delegation from Canada is also expected to travel.According to the news, "the investigation would include experts who worked on the investigation into the 2014 downing of Malaysia Airlines"

    ---
    In his first campaign election rally of 2020,I heard Trump saying that he served up... "American justice" .
    Referencing the 2019 Nobel Prize winner, Ethiopian PM Abiy Ahmed, the grandiloquent lunatic said that he himself deserved the honour instead,


    Quousque tandem, Trump..?
    Inviting to them investigate is not Iran giving up the black boxes.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51042326

    Iran has already violated international protocol regarding plane crashes too.

    https://www.businessinsider.sg/iran-...gation-2020-1/

  7. #467
    B. W.'s Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    My understanding is that Iran first bulldozed the site and then invited investigators. We'll have to see how that plays out.

  8. #468
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Wait Ludicus why are you covering for Iran of all countries?
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  9. #469

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    How can you not know?

  10. #470

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Idk what this is supposed to mean but you can start with a citation and non-facetious framing pls thx.


    That’s not to say that the CIA effort was bootless. Run from secret operations centres in Turkey and Jordan, the program pumped many hundreds of millions of dollars to many dozens of militia groups. One knowledgeable official estimates that the CIA-backed fighters may have killed or wounded 100,000 Syrian soldiers and their allies over the past four years. By the summer of 2015, the rebels were at the gates of Latakia on the northern coast, threatening Assad’s ancestral homeland and Russian bases there. Rebel fighters were also pushing toward Damascus.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...7e5_story.html

    As already mentioned, this sort of state funded terrorism alone would be hard to emulate by Iran.


    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Saudi Arabia and Qatar are not US client states. Also same as above.


    Explaining how at least one of Washington's most erstwhile and oldest regional vassals is a client is just as demanding as having to apparently explain in 2020 how the US spent much of the last decade emboldening militant Salafism in Syria.

    They directly provided significant arms to regional clients in full knowledge these would almost certainly end up bolstering Salafi terrorists. The bold bit would later be shown to be at best criminally negligent if not outright disingenuous on the part of the US.

    Still one of the best summaries of US support for Al-Qaeda and assorted terrorists I have ever read.

    https://www.theamericanconservative....ists-in-syria/

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    By far the most consequential single Saudi arms purchase was not from the Balkans, however, but from the United States. It was the December 2013 U.S. sale of 15,000 TOW anti-tank missiles to the Saudis at a cost of about $1 billion—the result of Obama’s decision earlier that year to reverse his ban on lethal assistance to anti-Assad armed groups. The Saudis had agreed, moreover, that those anti-tank missiles would be doled out to Syrian groups only at U.S. discretion. The TOW missiles began to arrive in Syria in 2014 and soon had a major impact on the military balance. This flood of weapons into Syria, along with the entry of 20,000 foreign fighters into the country—primarily through Turkey—largely defined the nature of the conflict. These armaments helped make al Qaeda’s Syrian franchise, al Nusra Front (now renamed Tahrir al-Sham or Levant Liberation Organization) and its close allies by far the most powerful anti-Assad forces in Syria—and gave rise to the Islamic State.


    The US initially also subcontracted arms shipments to proxies ( i.e. terrorists) via clients like the Saudis and Qataris. It's one of the most basic tasks regional clients with the necessary knowledge and contacts can do for their benefactors.

    Flush with weapons acquired from both the CIA Libya program and from the Croatians, the Saudis and Qataris dramatically increased the number of flights by military cargo planes to Turkey in December 2012 and continued that intensive pace for the next two and a half months. The New York Times reported a total 160 such flights through mid-March 2013. The most common cargo plane in use in the Gulf, the Ilyushin IL-76, can carry roughly 50 tons of cargo on a flight, which would indicate that as much as 8,000 tons of weapons poured across the Turkish border into Syria just in late 2012 and in 2013.
    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Same as above.
    American so called vetted Syrian proxies participating in offensives side by side with unambiguous Salafi terrorists is a matter of record. The US clearly supporting the forces of militant Salafism in the pursuit of a geopolitical goal.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The non-jihadist armed groups getting advanced weapons from the CIA assistance were not part of the initial assault on Idlib City. After the capture of Idlib the U.S.-led operations room for Syria in southern Turkey signaled to the CIA-supported groups in Idlib that they could now participate in the campaign to consolidate control over the rest of the province. According to Lister, the British researcher on jihadists in Syria who maintains contacts with both jihadist and other armed groups, recipients of CIA weapons, such as the Fursan al haq brigade and Division 13, did join the Idlib campaign alongside al Nusra Front without any move by the CIA to cut them off.

    As the Idlib offensive began, the CIA-supported groups were getting TOW missiles in larger numbers, and they now used them with great effectiveness against the Syrian army tanks. That was the beginning of a new phase of the war, in which U.S. policy was to support an alliance between “relatively moderate” groups and the al Nusra Front.The new alliance was carried over to Aleppo, where jihadist groups close to Nusra Front formed a new command called Fateh Halab (“Aleppo Conquest”) with nine armed groups in Aleppo province which were getting CIA assistance. The CIA-supported groups could claim that they weren’t cooperating with al Nusra Front because the al Qaeda franchise was not officially on the list of participants in the command. But as the report on the new command clearly implied, this was merely a way of allowing the CIA to continue providing weapons to its clients, despite their de facto alliance with al Qaeda.


    It should be stressed again that the US was facilitating the killing of military personnel belonging to an internationally recognised sovereign state they were not actually legally at war with. Identical to the crocodile tears wept when justifying the assassination of Suleimani. I'm just saying apply the standard to the terrorist enabling CIA.


    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Why repeat the same ridiculous allegation already addressed?

    Huh?

    Gosh if you say so.

    Not sure what Putin’s desire to put a stranglehold on the European gas supply chain (partly the same reason he’s in Syria) and the US offer to instead sell to our allies at rates that would be a loss to US suppliers has to do with the discussion.
    Oh no poor Ukraine! Putin bad! As per the article.

    Anything which increases interdependency between Russia and the engine of Europe that is Germany should be celebrated. Of course it will undercut more pro-US states such as Ukraine and weaken an increasingly tenuous American 70 year grip on Western Europe. God willing.

    The closing paragraph is real reason for the suspiciously vehement anti-Nord Stream advocate. I'm sure he really just wants everybody to have a warm winter....

    The highlighted is good thing and a disaster for Anglo-American perfidy on the Continent.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    When it comes online in the coming years, Nord Stream 2 will break down the 50-year-old system through which Russian gas supplied consumers of Central Europe and Southern Germany. It will not provide flexibility. And what’s more, by having three Russian pipelines—Nord Stream 1, Nord Stream 2, and Yamal-Europe—end in Germany, Europe will become dangerously dependent on bilateral relations between Berlin and Moscow.Nord Stream 2 booklets and promotional publications succeeded in convincing many Europeans that the project is about getting more Russian gas by an additional route. In fact, it is about diverting transit revenue from Ukraine and Slovakia to Germany and physically liquidating most of the pipelines taking gas to and through Ukraine. Nord Stream 2 may promise that “natural gas transportation through the Baltic Sea is a sustainable solution to meet the demand for natural gas in the EU.” But the pipeline is not the solution. It is the problem.


    As always there are other motivations for opposing or supporting it.

    https://www.intellinews.com/busting-...-myths-147476/

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Another objection is that Nord Stream 2 will increase Europe’s dependence on Russian gas, implying that Russia will send even more gas than now. Having more pipeline routes (Gazprom is also building the Turk Stream pipeline in southern Europe that will eventually form a trident of pipelines from Russia) means supplies to Europe are more diversified, not less, and the demand for Russian gas in Europe is set to rise rapidly.



    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    You are aware Iran was formerly a US ally and hands down the most powerful country in the region and a pillar of regional stability with virtually unassailable regional hegemony? Bailed out entire governments in the west? Held successive US Administrations and western governments on a golden leash? Fastest growing economy for a time and rolling in oil money? And Islamic terrorism wasn’t even a thing? And the world still turned on its axis.


    Such an successful powerhouse at a time when there was practically little regional competition. Completely subservient to foreign interests to the point that 80%+ of oil profits went to a foreign company. Relied on an oil bubble for growth which ultimatley would only benefit a corrupt upper middle class as delusional as he was . So successful he was overthrown by one of the most ideologically widespread protest movements in regional history. Absolutley no reason why an economic and industrial boom could not have been achieved by the nationalists in the Majlis that Anglo-American intervention destroyed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Nowhere did the FBI ever prove any of the fanciful claims about Ali Kourani being some sort of Hezbollah/Iranian sleeper agent. Quite the opposite as the sceptical neutral link provided on his case implied. He was very likely one of the many delusional but dangerous fantasists the FBI has a habit of occasionally nabbing (and entrapping) in order to grossly exaggerate as being part of some deeper conspiracy.
    Last edited by The Gurkhan; January 10, 2020 at 03:05 PM.

  11. #471

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gurkhan View Post
    Anything which increases interdependency between Russia and the engine of Europe that is Germany should be celebrated. Of course it will undercut more pro-US states such as Ukraine and weaken an increasingly tenuous American 70 year grip on Western Europe. God willing.
    Yes, "God willing" the US - a country whose presence in continental Europe saved democracy, first from fascism and then the USSR - will retreat from the world and let the dictators in China, Russia, Iran and Turkey run the show. That would be choice.

  12. #472

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Hey, it will mean less "illegal wars", so it's a good thing, right?
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  13. #473

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    Hey, it will mean less "illegal wars", so it's a good thing, right?
    Correction: it would mean fewer illegal wars by the US. Something tells me that the magnanimous states I listed above wouldn't make the most effective guarantors of international law.

  14. #474
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gurkhan View Post


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...7e5_story.html

    As already mentioned, this sort of state funded terrorism alone would be hard to emulate by Iran.

    Explaining how at least one of Washington's most erstwhile and oldest regional vassals is a client is just as demanding as having to apparently explain in 2020 how the US spent much of the last decade emboldening militant Salafism in Syria.

    They directly provided significant arms to regional clients in full knowledge these would almost certainly end up bolstering Salafi terrorists. The bold bit would later be shown to be at best criminally negligent if not outright disingenuous on the part of the US.

    Still one of the best summaries of US support for Al-Qaeda and assorted terrorists I have ever read.

    https://www.theamericanconservative....ists-in-syria/

    The US initially also subcontracted arms shipments to proxies ( i.e. terrorists) via clients like the Saudis and Qataris. It's one of the most basic tasks regional clients with the necessary knowledge and contacts can do for their benefactors.

    American so called vetted Syrian proxies participating in offensives side by side with unambiguous Salafi terrorists is a matter of record. The US clearly supporting the forces of militant Salafism in the pursuit of a geopolitical goal.

    It should be stressed again that the US was facilitating the killing of military personnel belonging to an internationally recognised sovereign state they were not actually legally at war with. Identical to the crocodile tears wept when justifying the assassination of Suleimani. I'm just saying apply the standard to the terrorist enabling CIA.
    As expected, your entire narrative relies on the false assertion that Saudi Arabia and Qatar are “US client states,” so that you can then claim US arms sold to and redirected by those countries to their own Islamist proxies are therefore backed by the US. As if your narrative weren’t vapid enough, your purpose in pushing said falsehood is so you can then justify your false equivalence between US foreign policy and Tehran’s direct (Quds/IRGC/“diplomats”) and indirect (Hezbollah) support for and commission of acts of terrorism around the world. As I told you, such an allegation against the US is patently false in any context that can be compared to Tehran.

    From your own source:
    Syria adds another chapter to the star-crossed history of CIA paramilitary action. These efforts begin with the worthy objective of giving presidents policy options short of all-out war. But they often end with an untidy mess, in which rebels feel they have been “seduced and abandoned” by the promise of U.S. support that disappears when the political winds change.
    One Syrian opposition leader highlighted for me the danger for his rebel comrades now: “The groups that decided to work with the U.S. already have a target on their back from the extremists, but now will not be able to defend themselves.”
    I mean, I knew you’d base your views on vacuous political talking points, but stringing together nonsense which conflicts with your own sources just to bolster a false claim? Pretty lame.

    Oh no poor Ukraine! Putin bad! As per the article.

    Anything which increases interdependency between Russia and the engine of Europe that is Germany should be celebrated. Of course it will undercut more pro-US states such as Ukraine and weaken an increasingly tenuous American 70 year grip on Western Europe. God willing.
    So far your justification for ranting against the US is that Assad and Putin “should be celebrated,” and you have nothing to back up your baseless assertions save more baseless assertions. Thanks for making this easy.

    Such an successful powerhouse at a time when there was practically little regional competition.
    You: The imperialist Americans would never allow Iranian hegemony in the Gulf!

    Me: Actually the US and much of the world was heavily reliant on Iranian hegemony in the Gulf.

    You: Doesn’t count!!



    Nowhere did the FBI ever prove any of the fanciful claims about Ali Kourani being some sort of Hezbollah/Iranian sleeper agent.
    Ah so opinions that support your worldview need no further justification, but facts which contradict that worldview are “fanciful claims.” Got it.

  15. #475

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Correction: it would mean fewer illegal wars by the US. Something tells me that the magnanimous states I listed above wouldn't make the most effective guarantors of international law.
    True enough, but do Americans really care about illegal wars they aren't involved in?
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  16. #476
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Inviting to them investigate is not Iran giving up the black boxes
    Why should they give the black boxes to a foreign country? In case you haven't noticed, the airplane belongs to Iran Air
    Iran has invited the National Transportation Safety Board, the U.S. accident investigation agency, Boing, Canadian and Ukrainian experts.It's likely that the plane was accidentally shot down by an Iranian missile, let's wait for probe results.
    --
    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Wait Ludicus why are you covering for Iran of all countries?
    Is the Democratic party covering for Iran of all countries? by the way,I would like to congratulate Sanders on what he had to say about Iran.
    Last edited by Ludicus; January 10, 2020 at 04:31 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  17. #477

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    As expected, your entire narrative relies on the false assertion that Saudi Arabia and Qatar are “US client states,” so that you can then claim US arms sold to and redirected by those countries to their own Islamist proxies are therefore backed by the US.
    Yes, but Western governments know that the Saudis are funnelling weapons and funds to terrorist groups, some of which (like AQ and IS) are in open conflict with the US/UK/France. This should be reason enough for us to stop selling the Kingdom hundreds of billions of dollars worth of arms. The usual excuse seems to be that "if we didn't do it, the Chinese or Russians would".

  18. #478

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    True enough, but do Americans really care about illegal wars they aren't involved in?
    Well the govt. certainly cared about the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. And Milošević's "Greater Serbia" ambitions. And the Russian incursions into the Crimea, the Donbass and Georgia. Though your question is self-defeating in the sense that almost by definition, one can be assumed not to care about the events they choose not to involve themselves in.
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; January 10, 2020 at 04:31 PM.

  19. #479
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Yes, but Western governments know that the Saudis are funnelling weapons and funds to terrorist groups, some of which (like AQ and IS) are in open conflict with the US/UK/France. This should be reason enough for us to stop selling the Kingdom hundreds of billions of dollars worth of arms. The usual excuse seems to be that "if we didn't do it, the Chinese or Russians would".
    I would chalk it up to the passivity of not holding the Saudis to account when they do stuff like that or kill American journalists. Oil money buys many things, including weapons and silence. I wouldn’t equate it to a desire to be the Saudi’s supplier rather than giving business to China or Russia, but who knows what informal lobbying from defense contractors and weapons manufacturers is doing behind the scenes. The enemy of my enemy, I suppose, justified by the need for “maximum pressure” on Tehran’s terrorist regime. I would agree US support for both Saudi Arabia and Israel is too close for my comfort, and that there should be far more transparency and accountability than there is.

  20. #480

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Yes, but Western governments know that the Saudis are funnelling weapons and funds to terrorist groups, some of which (like AQ and IS) are in open conflict with the US/UK/France. This should be reason enough for us to stop selling the Kingdom hundreds of billions of dollars worth of arms. The usual excuse seems to be that "if we didn't do it, the Chinese or Russians would".
    Neither Russians or Chinese actually would, given Saudi role in funding muslim terrorist groups in those countries. Literally the only thing that keeps Saudi regime afloat is Western elites supporting it financially and politically.

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