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Thread: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

  1. #521

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by The Gurkhan View Post
    That's just as likely them protesting against the government as a showing of defiance and less so supporting American thuggery or demonstrating any love for the US. Those could be the flags of any state and they would do the same.

    Lots of us know Iranians we can use to make proclamations about. Every Iranian I have met "secular" or otherwise, permanent diaspora or student doesn't much care for your country. They aren't stupid and actually have a grasp of history.
    I'm sure you feel that way.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  2. #522

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I'm certainly no fan of the Iranian theocracy but if you live in a world where Saudi Arabia (along with the UAE) are not the fount and source of a tidal wave of salafist terror abetted by the US good luck to you.
    Assigning responsibility to the US for the KSA and other Gulf states’ subsequent reaction to and competition with Tehran’s export of extremist doctrine and ideology simply isn’t factual, currently or historically. As I said, Wahhabism was used for centuries as a tool for domestic political control by the House of Saud and was overtly isolationist as a matter of religious “purity.” If the US is to be equated with Tehran in any context for buying oil from KSA like everyone else, or selling them weapons like alot of other countries, it’s worth mentioning that there is no equivalence to Tehran’s founding status as the “fount and source” of regional destabilization and global terrorism as an explicit vehicle for Islamic revolution.

    It’s certainly conceivable that subsequent generations after Khomeini realized a holy war on the world isn’t as cool as selling oil to everybody and raking in cash like the Shah did. Maybe Tehran’s global terror campaign and nuclear extortion is now more about trying to leverage her way back to 1978 geopolitics than it was when the regime attacked our embassy there, tried to topple Saddam via Islamic Revolution, or bombed civilians in Argentina. However, one can’t put toothpaste back in the tube, and plotting terror attacks across Europe while launching increasingly wild attacks on the US and her allies certainly isn’t a good way to let the world know all that global holy war stuff is just for domestic consumption, if indeed it is.
    Be good for Iran to have a fair and stable government but that's not what the US is offering, is it?
    I don’t understand the purpose of this question. US policy toward Tehran is predicated on defensive reaction and containment, not proactive regime change. Obviously the US and most of the world would prefer Islamists were not running the show in Tehran, but as I covered extensively, the US assisted and was ready to work with Khomeini until his regime attacked our embassy and took hostages instead. The ball has been in Tehran’s court from day one.
    the US is an ally of the worst country on Earth and the chief source of terrorism on the planet.
    The moral quandary posed by strange bedfellows in the KSA is applicable to most major countries in the world. The relationship is not remotely comparable to Tehran’s record vis a vis the origin of global Islamic terror as an official policy tool, or the course of regional destabilization. It’s important to highlight this fact only because of the political narrative which suggests the US is morally ineligible to confront or contain Tehran’s external ambitions due to whataboutist allegations of hypocrisy. No one is arguing KSA is morally superior to Tehran, nor that the US is opposed to Tehran on an exclusively moralistic basis.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  3. #523
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    So, Iran faces protests and demonstrations of public anger over the accidental Iranian shooting down of the airplane, and triggered universal condemnation. Yet, we haven't ever seen demonstrations of public anger in the US over the shooting down of the Iranian flight 655 in 1988.
    I came to the conclusion that the Iranian operative who first mistakenly identified the plane as an incoming missile and had only 10 seconds to make a decision should be awarded the Legion of Merit of the US for superior performance.
    Why not? let's keep in mind that the commander of the Vincennes and officer in charge of anti-air warfare were given the Legion of Merit award for "exceptionally meritorious conduct in performance of outstanding service" and for the "calm and professional atmosphere" during the period of destruction of the Iranian Airbus"

    As already mentioned above (pos#516 ), David Carlson, commander of the USS Sides, a frigate on the scene in the Persian Gulf when the Vincennes shot down the plane on July 3, 1988, put the blame on actions taken by the USS Vincennes. Full report: The Vincennes Incident - the US Naval Proceedings magazine

    Key points, for lazy readers.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Commander Carlson said,
    "Vincennes...Her actions appeared to be consistently aggressive, and had become a topic of wardroom conversation"
    "The ship Vincennes was dubbed "robo cruiser"
    "The crew of the Vincennes wanted to prove the viability of the ship’s Aegis missiles in the Persian Gulf"
    "The Vincennes saw an opportunity for action, and pressed hard for Commander Middle East Force to give permission to fire"
    "When the decision was made to shoot down the airbus, the airliner was climbing, not diving; it was showing the proper identification friend or foe"
    "The Vincennes was never under attack by Iranian aircraft"
    "I was also prepared to deal with an air threat, but in all honesty did not perceive one"
    "No profit has come from the pathetic post-incident attempts to place the blame on the victims. Iran Air Flight 655 was shot down for no good reason"


    But who cares? Bush proclaimed that "I will never apologize for the United States, ever -I don't care what the facts are. I'm am not an apologize-for-America kind of guy"

    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  4. #524

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    So, Iran faces protests and demonstrations of public anger over the accidental Iranian shooting down of the airplane, and triggered universal condemnation. Yet, we haven't ever seen demonstrations of public anger in the US over the shooting down of the Iranian flight 655 in 1988.
    I came to the conclusion that the Iranian operative who first mistakenly identified the plane as an incoming missile and had only 10 seconds to make a decision should be awarded the Legion of Merit of the US for superior performance.
    Why not? let's keep in mind that the commander of the Vincennes and officer in charge of anti-air warfare were given the Legion of Merit award for "exceptionally meritorious conduct in performance of outstanding service" and for the "calm and professional atmosphere" during the period of destruction of the Iranian Airbus"

    As already mentioned above (pos#516 ), David Carlson, commander of the USS Sides, a frigate on the scene in the Persian Gulf when the Vincennes shot down the plane on July 3, 1988, put the blame on actions taken by the USS Vincennes. Full report: The Vincennes Incident - the US Naval Proceedings magazine

    Key points, for lazy readers.

    [SPOILER]Commander Carlson said,
    "Vincennes...Her actions appeared to be consistently aggressive, and had become a topic of wardroom conversation"
    "The ship Vincennes was dubbed "robo cruiser"
    "The crew of the Vincennes wanted to prove the viability of the ship’s Aegis missiles in the Persian Gulf"
    "The Vincennes saw an opportunity for action, and pressed hard for Commander Middle East Force to give permission to fire"
    "When the decision was made to shoot down the airbus, the airliner was climbing, not diving; it was showing the proper identification friend or foe"
    "The Vincennes was never under attack by Iranian aircraft"
    "I was also prepared to deal with an air threat, but in all honesty did not perceive one"
    "No profit has come from the pathetic post-incident attempts to place the blame on the victims. Iran Air Flight 655 was shot down for no good reason"
    "Hey guys, look at this similar, yet totally unconnected incident that happened over 30 years ago. This clearly shows who the real culprits are."
    Last edited by Cope; January 13, 2020 at 06:51 AM.



  5. #525

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    I think the point is that Iran apologized and admitted it, unlike US, which did not.

  6. #526

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    President Trump on Monday said it didn’t matter if Iranian Gen. Qassem Soleimani posed an imminent threat to the United States because of his “horrible past.”
    Trump also asserted that his national security team agreed on the imminent threat posed by Soleimani that led to the decision to kill him. He made this assertion despite remarks from Defense Secretary Mark Esper on Sunday that undercut Trump’s claim that the Iranian general was planning to target four American embassies before a U.S. drone strike killed him in Baghdad on Jan. 3.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...mminent-threat
    Imagine what it must be like to work tor this guy His lawyers must love him.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  7. #527
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I think the point is that Iran apologized and admitted it, unlike US, which did not.
    Exactly. And more than that. Secondly, Legion of Merit was awarded to the psychopath who killed 290 passengers in Iranian waters in 1988. Captain David Carlson of Sides later said that the destruction of the airliner "marked the horrifying climax to Rogers' aggressiveness"
    Thirdly,the President of the US Bush also said that - "I don't care what the facts are". (2010)
    ------
    In my opinion, the demonization of Iran- the only country in the middle east totally opposed to the IS/Al Qaeda- is the most bizarre of all US foreign policies.
    I think we are right . EU willing to maintain Iran nuclear deal, risking rift with the US ...

    Even more bizarre is US policy toward South Arabia, U.S. Officials: More than 20 Saudi Students To Be Expelled In ...

    Some Saudi trainees failed to alert authorities about the shooter's extremist leanings. Investigators believe the gunman and other Saudi trainees watched videos of other mass shootings at a party before the attack.
    Some Saudis are being expelled because they viewed child pornography, according to the officials. Other Saudi officers in the U.S. were involved in extremist online chat rooms, according to one of the officials.
    Does it matter? no, it's unimportant, irrelevant in the grand scheme of things,
    Defense Secretary Esper to urge NATO to pay more to protect ...

    ...to contribute more to the defense of Saudi Arabia
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  8. #528
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Why do left wingers sympathise with Iran so much.

    You realise this is an Islamic Theocracy intent on exporting Islamism and terrorism around the world.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  9. #529
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Why do left wingers sympathise with Iran so much....
    why the right wing sympathize with Saudi Arabia so much.
    Fifteen of the 19 al-Qaeda hijackers who staged the attacks were Saudis.I don't have a particular sympathy for religious regimes in any part of the world.In secular countries, we don't pledge allegiance to any religion. EU foreign minister, Josep Borrell, is not a left winger. During an emergency session on 10 January, he rightly said that said the EU is willing to willing to maintain the Iran nuclear deal as long as Tehran fulfils its commitments in order to achieve it. As I said before, the right wing and left wing European Union wants to keep the nuclear deal with Iran..EU to work with top Iran diplomat despite US sanctions | The ...

    In fact, what exists need to be preserved.EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini and Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif

    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  10. #530

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    We're approaching comical degrees of whatabouterry from Ludicus. He's not even trying to conceal it anymore.
    Last edited by Cope; January 13, 2020 at 04:09 PM.



  11. #531
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    ... He's not even trying to conceal it anymore.
    ...isn't she lovely, Mogherini? she smiles at the foreign minister of Iran whenever she sees him;I guess she is in love with Zarif.

    Psss...wake up, Trump loves dictators, not me/us. I'm going to tell you something that might enrage you even more. I agree with Sanders's leftist approach to foreign policy. This man shares many of the left wing's critiques of American imperialism, across the world, particularly in Latin America and the Middle East. Sanders voted against the Gulf War and voted against the invasion of Iraq,"the most dangerous foreign-policy blunder in the modern history of this country" (sic). In fact, the focus should be on decades of horrendous US policy in the Middle East, not in the context how awful Soleimani/Iran is.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  12. #532
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus
    why the right wing sympathize with Saudi Arabia so much.
    Because they’re morally corrupt and like money more than standing up for freedom and democracy.

    The Saudis are not our friends. At best they are strategic allies, notwithstanding them exporting Wahhabism around the world not unlike what Iran does.

    You said Iran was demonised by America which is bizarre.

    In fact, the focus should be on decades of horrendous US policy in the Middle East, not in the context how awful Soleimani/Iran is.
    Wait what? Why should we concentrate only America and ignore everything Iran does? Are you saying this in the context of the US election or an international onlooker?
    Last edited by Aexodus; January 13, 2020 at 05:10 PM.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  13. #533

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    ...isn't she lovely, Mogherini? she smiles at the foreign minister of Iran whenever she sees him;I guess she is in love with Zarif.

    Psss...wake up, Trump loves dictators, not me/us. I'm going to tell you something that might enrage you even more. I agree with Sanders's leftist approach to foreign policy. This man shares many of the left wing's critiques of American imperialism, across the world, particularly in Latin America and the Middle East. Sanders voted against the Gulf War and voted against the invasion of Iraq,"the most dangerous foreign-policy blunder in the modern history of this country" (sic). In fact, the focus should be on decades of horrendous US policy in the Middle East, not in the context how awful Soleimani/Iran is.
    Are you going for the record number of consecutive posts utilising the same logical fallacy?



  14. #534
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Imagine what it must be like to work tor this guy His lawyers must love him.
    https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/n...tions/2289790/
    Trump Authorized Soleimani’s Killing 7 Months Ago, With Conditions: Sources
    Quote Originally Posted by NBC
    President Donald Trump authorized the killing of Iranian Maj. Gen. Qasem Soleimani seven months ago if Iran's increased aggression resulted in the death of an American, according to five current and former senior administration officials.
    Media is ruled by popularity and that stance lies in promiscuity, pacifism, plurality, and many more open displays of allegiance to egalitarianism or "We are all equal" and "Diversity is our strength." Ignore the fake news and move on, please move on from watching and reading media. If it isn't based in truth and reality, then it must be evil.
    Gornahoor|Liber esse, scientiam acquirere, veritatum loqui
    Crow states: "If you would be a great leader, then learn the way of the Tao. Relinquish the need to control. Let go of plans and of concepts. The world will govern itself. The more restrictive you are, the less virtuous people will be. The more force you display, the less secure they will feel. The more subsidies you provide, the less self-reliant they become. Therefore the master says: Un-write the law, thus the people become honest. Dispense with economics, thus the people become prosperous. Do without religion, thus the people become serene. Let go all desire for the common good, and the good becomes as common as the grass." ~ Lao Tzu - Tao te tching
    MONARCHY NATION TRANSCENDENCE

  15. #535
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    So, Iran faces protests and demonstrations of public anger over the accidental Iranian shooting down of the airplane, and triggered universal condemnation. Yet, we haven't ever seen demonstrations of public anger in the US over the shooting down of the Iranian flight 655 in 1988.
    Comparing apples to apples:
    If the US army would shot down an airliner full with americans over Washington DC, then they would try to deny it and would lie about it for days then yes, you would see the same demonstrations and public anger in the US.

  16. #536

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Why do left wingers sympathise with Iran so much.

    You realise this is an Islamic Theocracy intent on exporting Islamism and terrorism around the world.
    You're confusing Saudi Arabia with Iran. You can accuse Iran of many things but exporting Islamism is not one of them. This shows a common prejudice to lump up all Muslims together. By nature, Shias are a relatively closed group.
    The Armenian Issue

  17. #537

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You're confusing Saudi Arabia with Iran. You can accuse Iran of many things but exporting Islamism is not one of them. This shows a common prejudice to lump up all Muslims together. By nature, Shias are a relatively closed group.
    Iran has directly supported Islamist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas for decades. There is also evidence that it abetted Al Qaeda and the Taliban in order to undermine US interests in Afghanistan and that it has supported the Houthis in Yemen.

    Today, examples of forces supported by the IRGC-QF include Lebanese Hezbollah; the Hashd al-Sha’abi in Iraq (including groups like the Badr Organization, Kata’ib Hezbollah, and Asaib Ahl al- Haq); militia forces in Syria, including Lebanese Hezbollah; the Houthis in Yemen; Liwa Fatemiyoun from Afghanistan; Liwa Zainabyoun from Pakistan; and several groups in Palestinian territory like Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Second, there has been an expansion in locations where IRGC-QF forces have been active. The IRGC-QF has worked to broaden its areas of operation to include traditional countries like Lebanon and Iraq (where the IRGC-QF has long had partners) to countries like Yemen and Syria.
    Source.
    Last edited by Cope; January 14, 2020 at 04:03 AM.



  18. #538

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Houthis are not Islamists and I would argue the same for Hezbollah, as the Lebanese party has reversed its position regarding the issue since 2009. Senator Cruz discovered the reality about the relations between Hezbollah and native Christians the hard way. Not that it would matter if these groups were indeed fundamentalist, because you simply confuse geopolitics and foreign policy with an imaginary agenda of ideological warfare and global jihad. Iran exporting Islamism and terrorism (like it's a product developed domestically by the clerical industry) is an ambitious claim often parroted by royalist émigrés and pundits, whose salary is paid by certain lobbies, from the Persian Gulf to the Atlantic Ocean, but either no evidence is presented or the definition is based on a rather fragile basis. If we applied the same criteria we impose on Tehran to other states, then we would have reached some quite surprising conclusions, like Israel, who has also supported Hamas in Palestine, Sunni extremists (al-Qaeda included) in Syria and the Salafists of Jundallah in Iran. The real picture of the situation in the Fertile Crescent is less one-dimensional and more nuanced that Anne Coulter's twitter feed implies.

  19. #539

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Houthis are not Islamists and I would argue the same for Hezbollah, as the Lebanese party has reversed its position regarding the issue since 2009. Senator Cruz discovered the reality about the relations between Hezbollah and native Christians the hard way. Not that it would matter if these groups were indeed fundamentalist, because you simply confuse geopolitics and foreign policy with an imaginary agenda of ideological warfare and global jihad. Iran exporting Islamism and terrorism (like it's a product developed domestically by the clerical industry) is an ambitious claim often parroted by royalist émigrés and pundits, whose salary is paid by certain lobbies, from the Persian Gulf to the Atlantic Ocean, but either no evidence is presented or the definition is based on a rather fragile basis. If we applied the same criteria we impose on Tehran to other states, then we would have reached some quite surprising conclusions, like Israel, who has also supported Hamas in Palestine, Sunni extremists (al-Qaeda included) in Syria and the Salafists of Jundallah in Iran. The real picture of the situation in the Fertile Crescent is less one-dimensional and more nuanced that Anne Coulter's twitter feed implies.
    Two things can be true at once: Hezbollah, the Houthis, Hamas etc. can be both Islamist and useful to the Iranian regime geopolitcally. For the most part, the latter is largely contingent on the former. As ever, the usual accusations of hypocrisy that you level against the Israelis have no bearing on my point, though the argument that the IDF's relative indifferent response to Al-Nursa is somehow comparable to the Iranians funding Hezbollah to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars is frankly laughable.
    Last edited by Cope; January 14, 2020 at 05:50 AM.



  20. #540

    Default Re: Iraqi protesters storm U.S. embassy in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob69Joe View Post
    https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/national-international/trump-authorized-soleimanis-killing-7-months-ago-with-conditions/2289790/
    Trump Authorized Soleimani’s Killing 7 Months Ago, With Conditions: Sources
    Yeah, I read that article from the “promiscuous, pacifist” media. That’s exactly the point. Trump portrays himself as a master of all things, but couldn’t bother to have his own administration craft a more coherent narrative than “Soleimani was plotting imminent attacks on Americans and the only way to prevent it was to launch a unilateral strike on a country against whom there is no AUMF without asking Congress.” Trump then blows up his own administration’s shaky narrative and says “actually maybe he was maybe he wasn’t who cares.” This isn’t even the first time Trump has deliberately undermined his own government. It’s his MO at this point.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

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