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Thread: Sacred band of Carthage.

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    Default Re: Sacred band of Carthage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    Different kinds though. The citizien hoplite is the multiethnic Carthage more general citizenry, and the description itself also points it been more of an emergency units. Though as already said Carthage was stingy when it came to use citizenry on its armies.
    They are Carthaginian citizens. They count. From what I can gather, during the 3rd century bc, Carthaginian citizen infantry seem to have been called up in times of crisis. I will adress why I believe that aristocrats fought as cavalry in the text bellow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    Either way, we know that during the game timeframe Carthaginians fought in the major campaigns both as infantry spearmen and cavalry.
    The times Carthaginian citizen infantry are mentioned during the game's time frame are times of crisis - Roman invasions of Africa, Mercenary war etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    I dont know why is seems so crazy to you to assume that part of them were aristocrats when you have specific mentions of the commented unit in the last important campaigns Carthage had before the game start. And the specific "Sacred Band" unit that is briefly mentioned by the ancient sources seems to have been assmebled ad-hoc for both ocassions between the most distinguished/brave soldiers of this Carthaginian phoenician families. They couldn't have done that if the phoenician aristocracy had not already been fighting as infantry in the first place. Or at least, the scarce info we have from the anciente sources points to that been the most likely scenario.
    I'm inclined to believe that Carthaginian aristocracy fought as cavalry in the 3rd century bc.
    There are no mentions of elite/noble/rich hoplite formations in that time right? I don't know of any.
    They had an unfortunate track record fighting as hoplites in the 4th century bc. It was far safer to be mounted.
    Carthaginian armies shifted more attention to cavalry warfare in the game's time frame.
    They could afford it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    To be honest I dont see why is less justified than both liby-phoenician infantry and cavalry given the data we have.
    I can live at ease with those two units.

    We know that Carthage had infantry and cavalry. The Liby-Phoenician hoplites represent men of average wealth. Men of average wealth formed up the heavy infantry.

    The Liby-Phoenician cavalry represent men of above average wealth. Together with the aristocrats, they form up the cavalry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    So? I don't see how this unit changes anything of that given its rarity. I think this is actually well represented. The factional troops of Carthage in general and rarer than any other factions so you do need to use those other troops. Only if you are doing very well or in a comfortable position without much war can you really be a bit ahistorical and have higher ratios of punic troops in your armies.
    The Sacred Band was wiped out in the 4th century bc and are never mentioned again. There are no mentions of elite hoplites in the game's time frame. That, Carthage's unwillingness to once again commit its best citizens to the front ranks (I am by no means calling them cowards, the Romans did the same) and Carthage's shift towards a more cavalry oriented warfare makes me believe aristocrats would have fought as cavalry in EB2's time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    And to be honest, historians even debate nowadays if it was indeed so rare for Carthaginians to use citizen troops. The idea comes mainly from the first and second punic wars were expeditionary armies outside africa (the ones the romans fought the most) were mainly mercenaries. But they mention that almost every other punic army usually contained notable presence of citizen troops. Some even say that is wrong to assume that something similar to the sacred band was so rare, problem is we can't know for sure either way.
    That's the thing. When things are going well and Carthage is fighting abroad, citizens do not form a significant part of a Carthaginian land force. Only when things go bad do they get called up en masse. That's the smart thing to do. You do not risk people who are vital in many ways, especially vital to the economy, without good reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    I basically said the same in my post so we agree. I didn't said those or the others I mentioned weren't justified, specially given Greeks/Makedonians tried to use citizen troops mostly even when they were minorities. This part of the argument was more in answer to the "limited slots" and "slot waste" arguments you gave to others. Basically if we can spare over a dozen slots for differentiated hellenic elite units (which Im glad are there as I enjoy them a lot been hellenics my more played factions by far), we can certainly spare 2 for very plausible punic elite units.
    Greek/Macedonian elite units are well documented and were a vital part of any successful campaining Hellenistic army. They deserve every slot.
    On the other hand, when we talk about successful campaining Carthaginian armies, we're talking about Libyans, Iberians, Numidians, Celts etc.
    Very different approaches.
    I believe that the Carthaginian aristocracy should be represented with a cavalry unit, while an elite citizen infantry unit requires more evidence.
    Last edited by Rad; January 03, 2020 at 10:52 AM.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

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