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Thread: [TGC 0.98 public alpha II+patch 001] Released version 09.03.2021

  1. #101
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    I've got a general question: what do the numbers of inhabitants in the TGC depict?
    They can:
    a. number of citizens of the city
    b. number of households
    c. number of population of the whole province
    d. just a proxy for any of a,b,c

    In case of Tsargorod, it should be round 20k, according to Coliny McEvedy. But in the game it should depend on the income-public_order-gameplay balance.
    If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best IMO are:
    Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project and Broken Crescent.
    But I keep an eye also on Tsardoms and TGC. Read my opinions on other mods here.
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  2. #102
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    That made to help the player to avoid uprissings in his own capital from the start.
    In the end khaving you first capital in 1071 will be one of the victory conditions.
    We hope that IWTE tool experts will help us make Constantinople because i have a clear plan of how to make it without complications in the sieges.

  3. #103

    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    20,000 seems way too low for the population of Constantinople in the 10th Century. People in the 10th Century described Constantinople as an overpopulated city where people were "stepping" on each other due to the lack of space. Yet, in the 14th-15th century Constantinople was described as a sparsely populated city where a large amount (2/3) of the city was used as sheep and cattle graze. The Arabs carried off more than 20,000 "sell-able" slaves (population would be higher than that) after sacking Thessalonica, and Constantinople was much bigger in terms of inhabitation numbers.

  4. #104
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    Quote Originally Posted by antiochos_hierax View Post
    20,000 seems way too low for the population of Constantinople in the 10th Century. People in the 10th Century described Constantinople as an overpopulated city where people were "stepping" on each other due to the lack of space. Yet, in the 14th-15th century Constantinople was described as a sparsely populated city where a large amount (2/3) of the city was used as sheep and cattle graze. The Arabs carried off more than 20,000 "sell-able" slaves (population would be higher than that) after sacking Thessalonica, and Constantinople was much bigger in terms of inhabitation numbers.
    Starting year 872 is rather closer to mid-9th century, not 10th.
    For 1000 AD, Colin McEvedy puts 30,000.
    I don't trust any contemporary source on the numbers if not corroborated by other research. If you trust the sources, in the Battle of Tannenberg (1410), there're 2 millions christians (Teutonic Order) fighting 5 million heathens (Poles and Lithuanians), as one of the Spanish sources put it. The number of sell-able slaves seem in the same style to me. How would they transport it?

  5. #105
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    In fact the 8th to 10th centuries -before the great plague - was estimated between 300000 to half a milion because the population remained until 1204 more than 300000 with a guarisson of 50000 men! It was the greatest city in the western wolrd.

  6. #106
    Antonius's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    Anyway, I feel the current 6000 is way too low...
    But that is a minor detail in an otherwise beautiful mod.
    It is always easier to fight for one’s principles than to live up to them.
    ~Alfred Adler

  7. #107
    Giorgios's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    I feel one really can go round in circles on ancient population sizes- the truth is we just have no way of knowing, though I do find arguments towards the lower end of the spectrum are probably more reasonable. In terms of the annona grain doles for late antique Constantinople, am I right in saying that these would only have been "paid" to heads of households rather than individuals?

    It's great to see the mod creating such a buzz, anyway!

    Another thought from me- to go back to my slight gripe about the large map size. As Crete, I've conquered the cities of Cyrenaica, having made peace with the Romans after conquering Rhodes and sacking several Peloponnesian cities. However, the distances between these cities means, despite my building ports, markets and roads, there seems to be no visible trade between them, or between them and Crete itself. Just one, I think, that should be fed in.

    As an aside, I've worked out the estates system for cavalry, and think it's a great idea. However, I had to work this out myself through trial and error- probably a full guide, similar to those in EBII, needs to be issued for the building chains when TGC gets closer to a full release!

  8. #108
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    Quote Originally Posted by Giorgios View Post
    I feel one really can go round in circles on ancient population sizes- the truth is we just have no way of knowing, though I do find arguments towards the lower end of the spectrum are probably more reasonable. In terms of the annona grain doles for late antique Constantinople, am I right in saying that these would only have been "paid" to heads of households rather than individuals?
    This is one of the opinions, even though debatable. But still, it's ancient times, the heyday of Constantinople. But the Medieval one was not like this.

    There're ways to assess the population on the basis of area, building technologies etc. Or comparisons with the later times. In 20th century, fully build up, with all multi-storey technolgies, Stambul was 200.000. Tell me how could have been this achieved 1000 years earlier?

    The highest figures I've seen in the scientific books for the medieval Constantinople was 150000. So we may say it was between 40000 and 150000. The higher figures resemble that Spanish historian monk imagination of the battle of Tannenberg.

    But the most important for the TGC is, how higher figures would translate into the income, squalor and public order in the M2TW engine.
    And again, my questions:

    What do the numbers of inhabitants in the TGC depict?
    a. number of citizens of the city
    b. number of households
    c. number of population of the whole province
    d. just a proxy for any of a,b,c

  9. #109
    _Tartaros_'s Avatar "Harzschütze"
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    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    in rtw one person in the settlement was one soldier in a military unit.
    this means the number represents the male population able to fight in a military unit. Regarding this logic: 20.000 population means: about 15.000 youth + 10.000 old people = 45.000 male popultaion + 45.000 female = 90.000 in total (without slaves, foreigners, merchants, travelers and unfree inhabitants). we can add at least about 20-30 plus inhabitants. Finishing this, we end up with a population of 20.000 representing at least 120.000 inhabitants of the settlement. a ratio is 1:6

    Constantinople 6.000 are about 36.000 at the start of the campaign. regarding the amount of foreigners are higher in the capitol of the ERE we talk about 40.000-50.000 people

  10. #110
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    Quote Originally Posted by _Tartaros_ View Post
    in rtw one person in the settlement was one soldier in a military unit.
    this means the number represents the male population able to fight in a military unit. Regarding this logic: 20.000 population means: about 15.000 youth + 10.000 old people = 45.000 male popultaion + 45.000 female = 90.000 in total (without slaves, foreigners, merchants, travelers and unfree inhabitants). we can add at least about 20-30 plus inhabitants. Finishing this, we end up with a population of 20.000 representing at least 120.000 inhabitants of the settlement. a ratio is 1:6

    Constantinople 6.000 are about 36.000 at the start of the campaign. regarding the amount of foreigners are higher in the capitol of the ERE we talk about 40.000-50.000 people
    Thanks for the info, Tartaros. It's clear now that it's number of households (as it is in the EBII). The number looks plausible, even though at the higher end of estimates.

  11. #111

    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    @Tartaros - I could edit the events descriptions that pop up like the Securing the Islands, Securing the Buffer Regions, etc. I looked in the scripts file and the text file in the data folder.

  12. #112

    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    Playing custom battles I found a couple weird stats. The East Franks and Turks both have terrible charges. East Frank cavalry have 2 charge and Turcomans have 4. A lot of cavalry units also have spear_bonus's on their lances--as I understand it this stat provides a malus against infantry, which seems strange.

    More generally, balance-wise heavy cavalry on all factions have really similar stats and don't feel very different. For example, the Normans, whose hallmark is the powerful charge barely edge (1 point difference) out the elite chargers of other factions.

  13. #113
    _Tartaros_'s Avatar "Harzschütze"
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    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    good find.
    note that stats are not finished and ballanced at all in the alpha version.
    when all unit for 1.0 are added, koultouras and AnthoniousII implant the final stats.

  14. #114

    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    Hi, I play campaign for Abbasid and Tolunids, but my game fall when I reach 5-6 turn. Is it possible fix this problem?

    Medieval 2 Total War encountered an unspecified error and will no exit

  15. #115

    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    I played around with the HRE conversion script to trigger it early; it works fine for the initial transition, but once the game is saved and reloaded it is no longer playable. The screen is stuck on the end turn screen on the HRE's turn (using 'control hre' command confirms the player is technically controlling the faction), the player cannot input anything.

  16. #116
    _Tartaros_'s Avatar "Harzschütze"
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    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    can you be a bit more specific. did it fall in turnchange in both campaign for Tulunids and Abbasids?
    best is to upload a savegame or a errorlog (found in mods/TGC/logs) or take a screenshot.

    @ alexandair
    mhh, it worked for me some time ago, when i tested the recruitment. did you conquer all settlements?
    maybe a event or something else, which is imortant for HRE as a faction.
    Last edited by _Tartaros_; January 21, 2020 at 01:51 AM.

  17. #117

    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    Hi guys! Thank you very much for this wonderful mod! I am enjoy playing it for Franks. But script for forts does not work correctly. When general or other units entering the fort, the name of the fort moves or move out of the fort. I think you need the right script as in In nomine dei mod.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	kingdoms 2020-01-21 11-14-21-11.jpg 
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ID:	360478
    Last edited by Darhan; January 20, 2020 at 11:38 PM.

  18. #118

    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    At the start of turn 104 there is a persistent CTD, that I just cannot get past. Probably one of the magyar spawn scripts. I tried going back a turn or so to an earlier save, still no luck.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  19. #119

    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    When I launch the game didn't open and I saw that message: "medieval 2 encountered an unspecified error and will now exit".

  20. #120

    Default Re: [TGC 0.97 public alpha] Released version 15.01.2020

    Hello, I've been eagerly awaiting this mod for over five years, and I have been playing an East Francia (Turn 37) and Emirate of Crete (Turn 55) campaign. I think its in a great state for an alpha and hasn't crashed for me once, but here are some gameplay/trait issues i've noticed.
    1. Some traits appear to have contradictory effects (For example, "Mostly Rational" gives +1 Piety and -1 Morale, whereas base game was the opposite if I recall)
    2. Religious buildings beyond the first level appear to decrease your culture. I believe This is because Medieval 2 Interprets your .25 and .50 religious modifier as a NEGATIVE. Therefore, I went into Export_Descr_buildings and changed this. The town and large town religion chain no longer increase conversion, but the minor city gives a +1 conversion bonus. This is the same system used in Broken Crescent.
    3. Occasional spelling and grammatical errors, which I will post screenshots of later
    4. Some units from Wrath of the Norsemen retained their high cost (1600+), and Boggmen have 2 HP (Is that intentional?) Therefore I have reduced the costs of those units to be more in line with the others, and took away the Boggmen second hit point. As a side note Saxon crossbowmen have way lower missile damage then other crossbows for some unknown reason.
    5. Italian Militia cavalry do not have a unit card, as does several Moravian and one Bulgar unit.
    6. Croatian levy spearmen have the same cost and upkeep as the better spearmen for Croatia, the Pedites.
    7. The lack of Priests/Imams is a bit disappointing as this removes the Jihad mechanic for Islamic factions (Unless there are scripted Jihad events in the game?) but I understand the gameplay reasoning behind it.
    Question:What if any role is the Bishop of Rome/Pope to play in the mod? I remember the papal mechanics existed in an early build for the Lombards, Moravians, Croats and Franks. Also my Iron Crown of Lombardy mission to form the HRE requires an attack on a Papal owned settlement, and I really don't want to get excommunicated.
    8. Both Serbia and Croatia are small factions, but Croatia has a much more fleshed out roster. I'm guessing this is because of Serbian duchies geopolitical unimportance in this time and lack of sources?
    9. This is a question, what culture do the Rus become if they convert to Christianity? Do they stay "Norse" or change to Roman, Romanesque, or European culture?
    10. What is the point of using Creten Archers over Rumat?
    Last edited by Big_guy_4_you; January 21, 2020 at 11:42 AM.

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