Overpaid Bureaucrats

[Gromovnik]

Not to mention how much the military is spending, right?

[Love Mountain]

Nobody I know that's been too the DMV feels like they're getting their money's worth.

Everybody hates Comcast.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Nobody I know that's been too the DMV feels like they're getting their money's worth.

The problem with viewing the world through bumper sticker anecdotes and Rush Limbaugh parables is that your hodge podge narrative makes no sense to people who haven’t drunk the koolaid. The DMV has nothing at all to do with your own line of questioning. DMV clerks make 10-20 bucks an hour. How much do you propose cutting their pay so that “people you know” can feel better about standing in line?

Kennedy is the one who legalized the unionization of government workers. Since then private sector unions have been dwindling and government unions have been growing. See if you can figure it out.

If you’re suggesting a causal link between the growth of public sector unions and the decline of private ones, the onus is on you to make the argument.

I'm all for private sector unions and I'm all against public sector unions. So there.

So what?

[conon394]

Nobody I know that's been too the DMV feels like they're getting their money's worth.

Do they have any ideal how much of their money is spent on the DMV?

I don't know what DMVs you go to but the ones I've been to recent from Houston to Spokane to SE IA are not exactly opulent and in fact are rather shabby (and from an IT perspective look like I would be hitting ebay to find parts for their printers or a ram upgrade). But overall the service is better in my experience than the Wally Mart service counter and no worse than Costco which gets overwhelmed all the the time at rush period. How many of your 'overpaid bureaucrats' do you want to pay to stand around all day just so when you and everyone else decide lunch hour is the time to renew your license you can walk in a walk out.

What exactly would be your money's worth anyway?

You know I took the QE2 to Britain 2 years ago the service was amazing from Cunnard. Without any more than minimal research I am beyond certain bet your life on it that the amount of my money I and every other passenger parted with for one trip is probably more than my fraction of taxes that goes to the local DMV for decades at a time. Sorry could not resist so in California in the latest budget the DMV gets ~.0065 of it. The average tax rate means you pay about 47 dollars a year for the DMV. Your 5 year licensee adds maybe 5 dollars a year and somewhere around 70 -200 dollars to register your vehicle (only 3 for a EV). What do you expect for ~50-250 dollars a year - Virgin Atlantic service?

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So how about sticking with the questions that were asked. Do you think it is appropriate to have such large salaries for people working for cities that are clearly in financial trouble and why pay someone a pension based on the local cost of living when they are going to take that money and move somewhere where it is cheaper to live? Shouldn't there be an average that these pensions are based on such as what we see in the private sector?

No. You made a contractual arrangement and you are not a surf. You can move wherever you want if a pension was part of the deal you get it. Just like golden parachutes in the private sector. Also it not uncommon to have to actually reside in a locality for local or state jobs while on the job that really should be sufficent.

http://mhtlaw.com/2018/08/28/residen...pal-employees/

So you seem to stretching for some retirement clause.

And why, oh why, are you comparing private sector jobs and salaries with public sector salaries? It is not the same thing. When I was a kid government jobs were a safe landing zone for the "C" grade students. Good job security and poor salaries compared to the private sector. Government jobs are nearly impossible to get fired from. That's why they are considered a safe place for underachievers. In thirty years the whole concept has been turned upside down.

Nice condescension. Really you like the ideal of the guy at the corps of engineers being a C level guy? Or the guy trimming a trees over your house or car for clearance? But than again if they are a safe landing zone for average why do expect great service at the DMV? You are trying to have it both ways.

And let's revisit that janitor thing sure maybe he was C level at academics. But I am not adverse to paying somebody for 30 years of cleaning up other people 's , because you know what I don't want to and that's from experience. But the union wages I got has a county worker doing trash and delightfully scooping up dead animals that the wealthy did not care to touch but could smell from their house paid for my cum laude degree so a bit better than a C grade [(at the time my U went 1/5/15) but counted everything so damn bowling pulled my GPA down and in the day of cards for registration I was double registered and had an F for a class I never knew I had].

[Gaidin]

Nobody I know that's been too the DMV feels like they're getting their money's worth.

I don't know what state you live in. But mine gave me an appointment. I was in and out of there in 20 minutes. I never spent a better one dollar(and that a donation) to update an ID in my life.

I guess my state actually funds their DMV?

[B. W.]

The problem with viewing the world through bumper sticker anecdotes and Rush Limbaugh parables is that your hodge podge narrative makes no sense to people who haven’t drunk the koolaid. The DMV has nothing at all to do with your own line of questioning. DMV clerks make 10-20 bucks an hour. How much do you propose cutting their pay so that “people you know” can feel better about standing in line?

If you’re suggesting a causal link between the growth of public sector unions and the decline of private ones, the onus is on you to make the argument.

So what?

Typical. You're assuming that I spend my time reading bumper stickers and listening to Rush Limbaugh.

The average wage for a DVM clerk is based on the starting salary plus the highest salary and dividing by two. That hardly represents the reality that 90% make over $20 per hour. No, I am not complaining about the $20 wage. How could you come to such a conclusion?

I'm not going to spend 10 hours of my time explaining to you the relativity between government workers and private workers. Suffice it to say that when government workers unionize they are no longer "public servants".

Do they have any ideal how much of their money is spent on the DMV?

I don't know what DMVs you go to but the ones I've been to recent from Houston to Spokane to SE IA are not exactly opulent and in fact are rather shabby (and from an IT perspective look like I would be hitting ebay to find parts for their printers or a ram upgrade). But overall the service is better in my experience than the Wally Mart service counter and no worse than Costco which gets overwhelmed all the the time at rush period. How many of your 'overpaid bureaucrats' do you want to pay to stand around all day just so when you and everyone else decide lunch hour is the time to renew your license you can walk in a walk out.

What exactly would be your money's worth anyway?

You know I took the QE2 to Britain 2 years ago the service was amazing from Cunnard. Without any more than minimal research I am beyond certain bet your life on it that the amount of my money I and every other passenger parted with for one trip is probably more than my fraction of taxes that goes to the local DMV for decades at a time. Sorry could not resist so in California in the latest budget the DMV gets ~.0065 of it. The average tax rate means you pay about 47 dollars a year for the DMV. Your 5 year licensee adds maybe 5 dollars a year and somewhere around 70 -200 dollars to register your vehicle (only 3 for a EV). What do you expect for ~50-250 dollars a year - Virgin Atlantic service?

------------



No. You made a contractual arrangement and you are not a surf. You can move wherever you want if a pension was part of the deal you get it. Just like golden parachutes in the private sector. Also it not uncommon to have to actually reside in a locality for local or state jobs while on the job that really should be sufficent.

http://mhtlaw.com/2018/08/28/residen...pal-employees/

So you seem to stretching for some retirement clause.



Nice condescension. Really you like the ideal of the guy at the corps of engineers being a C level guy? Or the guy trimming a trees over your house or car for clearance? But than again if they are a safe landing zone for average why do expect great service at the DMV? You are trying to have it both ways.

And let's revisit that janitor thing sure maybe he was C level at academics. But I am not adverse to paying somebody for 30 years of cleaning up other people 's , because you know what I don't want to and that's from experience. But the union wages I got has a county worker doing trash and delightfully scooping up dead animals that the wealthy did not care to touch but could smell from their house paid for my cum laude degree so a bit better than a C grade [(at the time my U went 1/5/15) but counted everything so damn bowling pulled my GPA down and in the day of cards for registration I was double registered and had an F for a class I never knew I had].

Crazy. You go off topic and then come back on topic and then go off topic again. If you want to do that please just try to only do it once per post. I've had my own experiences with the DVM and I equate it with going to the dentist.

Are you seriously comparing the Army Corps of Engineers with lifeguards and janitors?

I don't know what state you live in. But mine gave me an appointment. I was in and out of there in 20 minutes. I never spent a better one dollar(and that a donation) to update an ID in my life.

I guess my state actually funds their DMV?

What state do you live in?

[Lord Thesaurian]

Typical. You're assuming that I spend my time reading bumper stickers and listening to Rush Limbaugh.

As opposed to coming up with incoherent nonsense all on your own.

The average wage for a DVM clerk is based on the starting salary plus the highest salary and dividing by two. That hardly represents the reality that 90% make over $20 per hour.

Citation needed.

No, I am not complaining about the $20 wage. How could you come to such a conclusion?

Nobody I know that's been too the DMV feels like they're getting their money's worth.

Your thread title: “Overpaid Bureaucrats”

So how about sticking with the questions that were asked. Do you think it is appropriate to have such large salaries for people working for cities that are clearly in financial trouble and why pay someone a pension based on the local cost of living when they are going to take that money and move somewhere where it is cheaper to live? Shouldn't there be an average that these pensions are based on such as what we see in the private sector?

If you have any other ideas I'd like to hear them. Also, why do you think people keep voting for this nonsense? For instance, just check the salaries for the City of Chicago. Its annual payroll comes to about 3 billion dollars. Is it a good return on the money?

To see how much the bureaucrats in your city make, just click on the link embedded in the article

I'm not going to spend 10 hours of my time explaining to you the relativity between government workers and private workers.

Good call considering a) I already did that and you have no counter and b) we’re 26 posts in and you haven’t bothered to defend your own vacuous talking points in your own thread.

[B. W.]

As opposed to coming up with incoherent nonsense all on your own.

Citation needed.


Your thread title: “Overpaid Bureaucrats”



Good call considering a) I already did that and you have no counter and b) we’re 26 posts in and you haven’t bothered to defend your own vacuous talking points in your own thread.

Citation needed? It was in the link you posted.

I believe I've made my position clear. Try not to look at it through an ideological lens.

[Love Mountain]

Citation needed? It was in the link you posted.

I believe I've made my position clear. Try not to look at it through an ideological lens.

Your opening post literally singles out Democratically-run cities as an example of your criticism, yet you tell us to avoid an ideological lens.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Citation needed? It was in the link you posted.

The 90th percentile sitting at $20.81 =\= “90% make over $20 per hour.”

I believe I've made my position clear. Try not to look at it through an ideological lens.

Your “position” is a hodgepodge of debunked ideological talking points.

[conon394]

Crazy. You go off topic and then come back on topic and then go off topic again. If you want to do that please just try to only do it once per post. I've had my own experiences with the DVM and I equate it with going to the dentist.

Err you brought up the DMV. I simply tried to point out the average tax payer is not paying for much. You really can't bitchh [really this word that is perfectly normal gets censored] about not getting great service until you start paying taxes comparable to you pay for a Virgin Atlantic experience for example if you want that level of service. Really I am pretty happy with my dentist you should change yours - long wait or what.

The OP title invites consideration of everyone and anyone that might be a bureaucrat and if they are over paid. But I answered the question you buried in the OP post.

However you are the one who cited a poorly constructed article in a biased source that invites response a more than just you questions.

Are you seriously comparing the Army Corps of Engineers with lifeguards and janitors?

As I have already demonstrated with actual research the 'life guards' in question are senior manages and trainers for people who have to you know survive and ocean rip tide to save people in the ocean, not somebody watching the kid pool. And of course doing it in some of the most most possibly expensive places to live in in the USA. You really want to hope the C-grade life saving and fitness guy can drag your Tuchus out of the ocean BW?

Janitor in bloody NY. and you have yet answer my question - how many out of the total and with what seniority. Because what the evidence shows as I said a few who put in 30 years and took every possible overtime option made that much. But I betting most, the vast majority sit at or around base pay.

"Are you seriously comparing the Army Corps of Engineers"

Everything about your OP and Title says you do. Are not they just not more C-Grade government functionaries who could not hack it in industry waiting for retirement benefits?

[Gaidin]

Everything about your OP and Title says you do. Are not they just not more C-Grade government functionaries who could not hack it in industry waiting for retirement benefits?

It should be worth noting, GS-5 is the low entry level of the government system BW hates so much. I have no idea how this transitions to most state systems. But there we go. Their pay goes from 30,113 to 39,149 depending on the step. It can go higher depending on if you are considered to live in an expensive area. But if you are moved back out of the expensive area your pay is knocked back down to base "Rest of US" locality.

The first time a federal worker sees six figures is GS-13 step 10 at 102,288 pre-tax.

There are many times civilians interact with military in doing their jobs. For conduct and social purposes GS-5 is pretty much E-5, and GS-13 is O-5.

For those wondering why GS-5 is entry-level, well. Student jobs and internships have to go somewhere.

https://gogovernment.org/pay-and-the...l-schedule-gs/

https://www.federalpay.org/gs/2020

https://www.federalpay.org/military/...ks-to-gs-grade

So conon, dollars to donuts, the C-grade government functionaries who couldn't hack it in industry are never going to make it to 6 figures anyway?

[B. W.]

The first step in solving a problem is recognizing that it exists. Who is going to pay these retirement packages when the entities (cities) default on their obligations?

[Gaidin]

The problem is, your solution certainly doesn't provide the math and it leaves needed positions empty.

[Genava]

The first step in solving a problem is recognizing that it exists.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[conon394]

It should be worth noting, GS-5 is the low entry level of the government system BW hates so much. I have no idea how this transitions to most state systems. But there we go. Their pay goes from 30,113 to 39,149 depending on the step. It can go higher depending on if you are considered to live in an expensive area. But if you are moved back out of the expensive area your pay is knocked back down to base "Rest of US" locality.

The first time a federal worker sees six figures is GS-13 step 10 at 102,288 pre-tax.

There are many times civilians interact with military in doing their jobs. For conduct and social purposes GS-5 is pretty much E-5, and GS-13 is O-5.

For those wondering why GS-5 is entry-level, well. Student jobs and internships have to go somewhere.

https://gogovernment.org/pay-and-the...l-schedule-gs/

https://www.federalpay.org/gs/2020

https://www.federalpay.org/military/...ks-to-gs-grade

So conon, dollars to donuts, the C-grade government functionaries who couldn't hack it in industry are never going to make it to 6 figures anyway?

More or less. If you are in for the long haul and in something you are adding education/certifications and the like you can jump to management in you area and that is usually good way to move up the ladder (but see below probably require applying for a different post) but its no automatic seniority thing. My wife started at GS-11 and that was a lateral move from associate professor in Genetics and is now GS-13 [but each step is predicated on rather exceeding your scientific goals and performance baselines(*)]. My understanding is that she might make GS-14 and still be able to stay as a researcher but in general GS-14/15 wold require a jump to being a station director so majority management. After that I think you have to go to program director so no science at all any more and some kind of education sabbatical in management and at Bethesda to learn about dealing with lobbyists and politicians. But yep the kid she hired has field tech has no direct path to some high GS level unless he reapplies for some other position after he finishes college. But BW should be happy sine one thing has been removed or vastly reduced under republican pressure is merit bonus options without GS advancement. Thus a really good field tech who maxed out and just wants to stay a tech can't be rewarded.

*Even than since my wife jumped to plants from people the scale previous grants and size of projects meant she has so far got a pass on some training requirements she would have had to do is she was i dunno starting out as just a shinny new Phd at some lower GS level.

I suspect most States operate similarly. I was technically a state employee as a Research associate at University of Texas. The position did not really go anywhere. It had a COLA but their was seniority raise just merit based on performance., but again I would have had to reapply to a different position break the 30-55 K bracket the state allowed.

I will grant localities can simply be weird and the smaller ones even more so. I suspect they might provide the best cases of ahh ha type stories of cases that BW source likes. But at the same time I mean its easy enough to google what happens when tree trimmers screw up. And also the competitive salary for a senior experienced tree trimmer. I rather suspect the Chicago a high cost of living city is probably paying the cited rate to very senior trimmers or team leaders or such.

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The first step in solving a problem is recognizing that it exists. Who is going to pay these retirement packages when the entities (cities) default on their obligations?

Presumably thoughtfully lead states not run tax cutting republicans would fully fund their pension funds and do at a state not city level to spread risk around

A pension remains a contractual deferred compensation its up to the state to not default.

[B. W.]

Unlike you guys, my first thoughts were "how are they going to pay for all this?" The answer to that question is that they are borrowing from an uncertain pie-in-the-sky future.

Also, comparing federal positions and pensions is hardly a fair equivalent. The federal government can print money. Cities cannot.

There have already been instances of cities defaulting and those pension benefits were lost leaving the recipients destitute.

[conon394]

Unlike you guys, my first thoughts were "how are they going to pay for all this?" The answer to that question is that they are borrowing from an uncertain pie-in-the-sky future.

Also, comparing federal positions and pensions is hardly a fair equivalent. The federal government can print money. Cities cannot.

There have already been instances of cities defaulting and those pension benefits were lost leaving the recipients destitute.

You appropriately fund and mange the pension system. Cites are no worse than corporations that decide a stock buy back is better than meeting their pension obligations. Or using accounting loop holes or projecting some fantastic market returns on investment.

There is cognitive dissonance however

I assume for cites the same thing happens as with the big 3 (automakers)

"Charles Millard, Director of the U.S. Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp (PBGC) raised his concerns in an interview with the Wall Street Journal.

He acknowledged that General Motors Corp (GM.N), Ford Motor Co (F.N) and Chrysler LLC have well-funded pensions according to the standard accounting rules applied by the Securities and Exchange Commission.
But by the PBGC’s measures, the pension funds of Detroit’s Big Three would be underfunded by as much as $41 billion if one or more of the automakers went under and killed their pension plans, the Journal report said."

https://www.reuters.com/article/auto...45031620090110

Clearly the SEC is more permissive. I would hazard a guess is that the SEC is just considering if the entity can pay its current year (or couple) obligation and not much caring about what happens if the entity goes bankrupt (were pension holders are likely low on the list of who gets the assets). The PBGC seems to measuring how big the fund has to be to pay everything GM for says it will if it up and died tomorrow.

I would say regulation should be tighter - if you offer a pension it should funded at PBGC levels all the time or face a penalty, otherwise both cities and states and corporations are engaging a con game of at minimum just kicking the can down the road to be somebody else's problem

[B. W.]

It is obvious that you guys have no idea of the scope of the problem. Chicago's money for pension debt is at 39%:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opini...403-story.html

The cut-off for a grade of "d" is 60%. Chicago's pension debts are unsustainable.

My own pension fund has 85% of obligations and they reduced their own grade from an "a" to a "d" in order to shore up the situation. In fact, my pension payments were reduced before I even retired, but at least I know they are fairly secure.

The folks who work for the cities that promise these lavish pensions are in for a terrible shock and that is hardly fair. It would have been better to have managed those plans properly instead of promising something that the politicians who orchestrated those lavish benefits just to get votes knew would likely fall apart.

[conon394]

The folks who work for the cities that promise these lavish pensions are in for a terrible shock and that is hardly fair. It would have been better to have managed those plans properly instead of promising something that the politicians who orchestrated those lavish benefits just to get votes knew would likely fall apart.

They should have been managed better, but again as I pointed out Industry does the same.

So what are you really concerned about? The way companies and cites and states all poorly manage their pension funds? That means nobody should be able to work toward that security in retirement if it was part of their job offer? That municipal or state or federal employees should be paid less for reasons not elaborated? Or just that you don't like the DMV and want fixed somehow cheaply - maybe municipal slaves under the threat of the lash?