View Poll Results: Are you against or in favour of Scottish independence?

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  • Against.

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  • In favour.

    15 60.00%
  • Other/I am not sure.

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Thread: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

  1. #61
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Exactly! Czech and Slovaks are great friends. Languages are basically very same. Problems or more likely issues with one nation were the same for second nation as well even during joining EU. But Uk/Scotland..Spain...? But there are always conditions....

    But look at UK/Scotland. Let´s say Scotland 2014 referendum got them independence. Sure there would still be question about the potential Brexit (around now ) but we can assume UK would be still part of EU as of now plus maybe little longer because firstly UK/Scotland would need to settle thing between them. In such situation UK and Spain could easily block any attempt to join EU for Scotland. Spain for fear of independence for Catalonia, Basque and UK for whatever reason...let´s say in case the Scotland independence was not completely nice process. It is basically another bargaining chip for UK in independence vs EU membership.

    But now? UK is leaving. So by this UK will lost any control over if Scotland can or cannot join EU. Plus whole Brexit is somewhat damaging EU public PR as member is leaving project...so there will be political will to counter this. Best way is getting new member. New old member is especially great as you don´t have to add some states which are not quite "there yet" (Turkey?). Political will to repair public EU PR easily counters whole Spain especially if Scotland will leave in very legal way. States have control over legal process. You can fight windmills forever...So Scotland legally leaving UK has is giving no special room to Catalania and others.

    Still current issue is future of UK. There might be yet another crisis in next years, brexit at its own, trade deals take time. Short question, will UK see new golden age soon after brexit or not? If not and there are major (economical) issues, it will bring probably the biggest opportunity for independent Scotland. And Unified Ireland. Because logic is simple, golden age for UK = nobody wants to leave UK. Crappy age for UK = somebody gets idea that leaving might be option. And then of course right back to EU..
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

  2. #62
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    Spain won't block Scotland if the separation was consentual and agreed upon with London.
    Yep.Spain would not oppose future independent Scotland

    Just as a side note. British territory Gibraltar 'could stay in Schengen Area after Brexit...
    British territory Gibraltar could remain in the European Union’s Schengen Area of free movement after Brexit, it’s been claimed. Fabian Picardo, chief minister of the microstate, said the territory should remain accessible to the rest of the EU.



    How one proverb became a recurring part of the of the Brexit ...

    Ever since Boris Johnson characterized his policy on cake as “pro having it and pro eating it too,” Brussels has sought to alert the British negotiators to the impossibility of adopting such an attitude. In October 2016, Donald Tusk, taking a rather literal approach to the aphorism called upon proponents of the ‘cake philosophy’ to carry out a scientific experiment: "Buy a cake, eat it, and see if it is still there on the plate"
    Ha-ha!
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Majority of Scots are now in favour of Independence, especially in the face of a no deal Brexit and anglo incompetence at managing Scotch affairs.
    UK: Is Scotland on course to leave Britain?

    Last week, a bombshell survey indicated that nearly 60 percent of Scots would vote to quit the United Kingdom.
    Source: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/...-leave-britain





    Still gives me chills every time i see it.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    It’s supposed to, it’s history distorted into nationalism.

    Speaking as an Englishman, they can go if they like. Would be a refreshing change to not have Nicola Sturgeon whining every other weekend in the media or their MPs holding England to ransom every time a vote is done on trading laws. I doubt they’ll be massively better or worse off either way, and of course they would have to re-apply to enter Europe so good luck to them with that. The least you can say about Scotland is that it doesn’t bleed money like Wales and especially Northern Ireland, so if we could also get shot of the latter that would be very nice indeed.

  5. #65
    LoZz's Avatar who are you?
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    It will happen, sooner or later. Decolonisation of Ireland as well.
    you mean northern Ireland who have exercised the democratic choice to remain within the union, twice, right?


    It would be extremely sad if indyref 2 goes the way the polls suggest. I would be sad to see what I identify as my country split up. But its not a forgone conclusion yet. Brexit, in its entirety hasn't happened yet. Covid-19 isn't over yet. Time is on the Union's side as Boris has another 3 and a bit years left in office and he wont let it happen on his watch. But certainly the question isn't going to go away, not in our lifetime.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by LoZz View Post
    you mean northern Ireland who have exercised the democratic choice to remain within the union, twice, right?
    So it's OK to pack a part of another country with your settlers, and then keep it in case you are forced to leave the country as a whole? Interesting.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    The battle of Brexit is now over, the battle for Scotland has now begun.

    As Nicola Sturgeon put it on this xmas day:
    Before the spin starts, it’s worth remembering that Brexit is happening against Scotland’s will. And there is no deal that will ever make up for what Brexit takes away from us. It’s time to chart our own future as an independent, European nation
    Time to chart Scotland's future as 'independent, European nation': First Minister Sturgeon reacts to UK-EU Brexit accord

    Source: https://www.rt.com/uk/510680-scotlan...nation-brexit/

    EU should make the perfidious albion pay for their sins.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    England is the sun and the other british states the planets in its orbit.
    Last edited by alhoon; December 30, 2020 at 10:12 AM. Reason: insulting part removed


  9. #69

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    So it's OK to pack a part of another country with your settlers, and then keep it in case you are forced to leave the country as a whole? Interesting.
    The notion of "settlers" is an interesting position to take being inherently racist. You are saying they aren't citizens yet the majority of so called settlers were part of an immigration which peaked and largely ended in the 17th century.

    So you are saying that giving immigrants the right to vote is giving "settlers" the right to vote, you are basically at this point being pretty racist but thats fine. I mean rights are rights and apparently being somewhere 300 years doesn't give you citizenship. This means almost no one who isn't white has a vote in the UK...sorry that is not fine it is in fact incredibly racist.

  10. #70
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    In my opinion, Brexit is a huge mistake, opening a can of worms.
    The proverb "like father, like son" doesn’t aplly to this case.
    Boris Johnson's father seeks French citizenship as Brexit ends
    I will always be European, that's for sure
    Let's go back to 2017.Does Britain Exist as a Nation? - CIDOB

    As the prime minister pledges to take Britain out of the European Union, arguments on whether a bold and ambitious trade agreement with the EU are possible roll back and forth. The politics of aggrieved nationalism are another focus of interest, encouraged by Donald Trump’s arrival in the White House (...)

    The very word Britain does however pose a problem which is not always acknowledged, notably in continental Europe. The country more closely resembles the former Yugoslavia or the Austro-Hungarian empire of old than a national state such as France or Sweden. Discarding the origin of the name – the Roman Britannia did not include lands north of Hadrian’s Wall or across the Irish Sea – Britain houses the four nations of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The first contains an overwhelming percentage of the population and concentrates by far the most wealth, over 80% of the total. This is a situation which is very different from Germany or the US where no lander or state carries such a crushing weight among its peers.

    The building of the United Kingdom was, over a millennium, the story of England’s relentless expansion, at times extremely brutal across the outlying, often Celtic lands on its boarders. Northern Ireland is the child of the bitter war of conquest led by the English crown against the Irish people going back more than half a millennium. The result is a predominantly Catholic North and East and an essentially Catholic South and West. The Act of Union of 1707 incorporated Scotland and England but was strongly resisted north of the boarder. Empire building is usually a brutal affair and this was no exception but England, then Britain’s success at conquering an world empire from the 17th century gave every nation a stake in the shared prosperity not least Scotland. Its sons played a role in the military, banking and legal system of the empire which was far in excess of its weight in the population of what became the United Kingdom. In a neat reversal of history, many jobs today in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland depend on decisions taken abroad, in Canada, the US, India or Germany.

    As the empire has vanished into a barely remembered past so have the shared memories of the military, the civil servants and the merchant classes whose achievements raked up so many riches for Britain for three and a half centuries. Devolution and a peaceful settlement in Ireland have created four capital cities, four legislatures and four bureaucracies out of what was once a monolithic state. Each nation meanwhile is pulling in its own direction

    The Prime Minister would carry a heavy responsibility if she were to preside over the undoing of the United Kingdom, discard is remarkable achievements to the rubbish dump of history. It maybe that the rise of populism is ushering in irresponsible government. Demagogues like to pretend they speak for ordinary people while they pursue their own destructive policies of aggrieved nationalism. Sir Winston Churchill must be turning in his grave. (1)

    (...) Is it acceptable, even today that people in Scotland and Northern Ireland who have cast their vote to stay in the EU be forced to leave? The UK is not a unitary, still less an English state.
    (...)Indeed those who voted against leaving the United Kingdom in 2014 had no intention of leaving the European Union. So the hard question for the Prime Minister is how to keep these three nations in the UK while England opts out. This amounts to squaring the circle.
    ---
    (1)
    Churchill – a `founding father' of the European Union – would ...

    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  11. #71

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    "I am now going to say something that will astonish you. The first step in the re-creation of theEuropean family must be a partnership between France and Germany. In this way only canFrance recover the moral and cultural leadership of Europe.There can be no revival of Europewithout a spiritually great France and a spiritually great Germany. The structure of the UnitedStates of Europe will be such as to make the material strength of a single State less important.Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by a contribution to thecommon cause. The ancient States and principalities of Germany, freely joined for mutualconvenience in a federal system, might take their individual places among the United States ofEurope.But I must give you warning, time may be short. At present there is a breathing space. Thecannons have ceased firing. The fighting has stopped. But the dangers have not stopped. If weare to form a United States of Europe, or whatever name it may take, we must begin now. Inthese present days we dwell strangely and precariously under the shield, and I even sayprotection, of the atomic bomb. The atomic bomb is still only in the hands of a nation which,we know, will never use it except in the cause of right and freedom, but it may well be that ina few years this awful agency of destruction will be widespread and that the catastrophefollowing from its use by several warring nations will not only bring to an end all that we callcivilisation but may possibly disintegrate the globe itself.I now sum up the propositions which are before you. Our constant aim must be to build andfortify the United Nations Organisation. Under and within that world concept we must recreate the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States ofEurope, and the first practical step will be to form a Council of Europe. If at first all the Statesof Europe are not willing or able to join a union we must nevertheless proceed to assembleand combine those who will and who can. The salvation of the common people of every raceand every land from war and servitude must be established on solid foundations, and must becreated by the readiness of all men and women to die rather than to submit to tyranny. In this urgent work France and Germany must take the lead together. Great Britain, the BritishCommonwealth of Nations, mighty America - and, I trust, Soviet Russia, for then indeed allwould be well - must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion itsright to live. Therefore I say to you “Let Europe arise!”."

    God forbid we quote people in context with their full meaing eh? Or some would assume the other enters the debate with dishonest intentions...

  12. #72
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Churchill’s arguments were were made in a different contex (the circumstances immediately after WW2 ), but with this proposal - speaking at the University of Zurich- Churchill put his personal prestige behind the cause of European unity.Let's also keep in mind that the US embraced the idea of European unity.
    Churchill wrote to the socialist and zionist Leon Blum, three- time prime minister of France,hated by fascist Franco and hated by the French rightist party ("Better Hitler than Blum"). In fact, Leo Blum was sent sent to Buchenwald in 1943, and then transferred to Dachau. I have a great admiration and respect for this man.
    Mr. Marshall in his News Conference on June 12, 1947, disclosed that my advocacy of the United States of Europe had influenced his development of the idea that Europeans should work out their own economic recovery and that the United States should extend financial help
    -----
    On a side note- Gibraltar remains in the Schengen area. British citizens will have to present passports to enter Gibraltar.
    Last edited by Ludicus; January 02, 2021 at 10:49 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  13. #73

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Churchill’s arguments were were made in a different contex (the circumstances immediately after WW2 ), but with this proposal - speaking at the University of Zurich- Churchill put his personal prestige behind the cause of European unity.Let's also keep in mind that the US embraced the idea of European unity.
    Churchill wrote to the socialist and zionist Leon Blum, three- time prime minister of France,hated by fascist Franco and hated by the French rightist party ("Better Hitler than Blum"). In fact, Leo Blum was sent sent to Buchenwald in 1943, and then transferred to Dachau. I have a great admiration and respect for this man.


    -----
    On a side note- Gibraltar remains in the Schengen area. British citizens will have to present passports to enter Gibraltar.
    I welcome your concession that not only what I quoted was not false, but things he said may have been in the heat of the moment of the end of World War 2 but on top of all that he referred to europeans as a distinct and seperate entity, proposing solutions for them not "us"

    As gracious as a concession as I've come across and you are gracious indeed in its presentation. Kudos to you sir we can part as comrades.

  14. #74
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Its a very interesting topic "the solutions for them and not us" . The Churchillian perspective is ambivalent, product of its time.
    Churchill commented in 1949 "Britain cannot be thought of as a single State in isolation. She is the founder and centre of a world-wide empire and Commonwealth. We shall never do anything to weaken the ties of blood..For Britain to enter a European Union from which the Empire and Commonwealth would be excluded..."
    The world-wide empire is dead,the Brexit spells trouble for Scotland and Northern Ireland, and in my opinion- if Boris wants to make Britain serve as a bridge between the US and Europe, well, good luck with that.
    There is nothing wrong with the British cultural narrative- the Tennyson's Idylls of the King, Arthur and Arthurian legend, but the English tradition of the afternoon tea introduced to England by us won't exit with Brexit. Stay well, stubborn islanders
    The Lisbon lament: Britain's oldest ally on the eve of Brexit

    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  15. #75

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    So someone goes from saying Churchill makes my argument to the churchill perspective is done?

    Do you honestly expect anyone to remotely take you seriously lol. I mean maybe some people fall for this , did you really think no one would notice that?

  16. #76
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Donny Crane View Post
    So someone goes from saying Churchill makes my argument to the churchill perspective is done?Do you honestly expect anyone to remotely take you seriously lol.
    Those who are able to understand what I said. Don't go that way,it is always possible to be assertive without being agressive. Churchill perspective was ambivalent. It's not at all hard to understand Churchill ambivalence. Like it or not, I am not the first to say it.The British speciality: permanent ambivalence

    "From its beginnings up to the present day, the British attitude towards European integration deserves special mention. Britain decided not to be a part of the Coal and Steel Community, thus revealing another constant in the dynamics of European integration: British ambivalence. Winston Churchill was decisive in shaping the British position. The British always liked to sit at the European table and choose the menu, but without ultimately taking part in the meal. As Churchill would say in a speech before the House of Commons in 1953 on the occasion of the discussion of a French proposal to establish the European Defence Community: “We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not combined. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed.” British ambiguity about Europe could hardly have been better expressed.

    (...)To better understand this uniquely ambivalent relationship of Britain to Europe, it is worth looking briefly into the “Europeanist” thought of Winston Churchill, the man who marked British political life both during and after the war. Churchill was a passionate defender of the idea of ​​Europe in the post-war years, at least until the beginning of his second government (1951-1955).

    Roy Jenkins (2001), in our opinion the best biographer of Churchill the politician, provides interesting insights that clarify and correct the more extreme interpretations of both defenders and detractors of Churchillian Europeanism.

    In 1947 he promoted the formation of a “Movement of European Unity” and used it to contribute to multiple initiatives in concert with other European leaders. These initiatives culminated in the Hague Conference of May 1948 with the creation of the Council of Europe, followed by the first Assembly of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg in the summer of that year, with the participation of around 200 delegates from Great Britain, as well as delegations from Ireland, France, Italy, the Benelux countries, Sweden, Denmark and Norway. Even though this Council of Europe had no institutional authority, other than as a forum for the discussion of proposals, it contributed greatly to creating the momentum for other more concrete European initiatives. On the occasion of the second Assembly of the Council of Europe, Churchill gave a speech in Strasbourg’s Place Kléber before 20,000 people enthused about the idea of Europe.

    Churchill’s contribution was not only in the realm of ideas. It was of equal importance in the construction of the initial institutional scaffolding for Europe. In 1947 he promoted the formation of a “Movement of European Unity” and used it to contribute to multiple initiatives in concert with other European leaders. These initiatives culminated in the Hague Conference of May 1948 with the creation of the Council of Europe, followed by the first Assembly of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg in the summer of that year, with the participation of around 200 delegates from Great Britain, as well as delegations from Ireland, France, Italy, the Benelux countries, Sweden, Denmark and Norway. Even though this Council of Europe had no institutional authority, other than as a forum for the discussion of proposals, it contributed greatly to creating the momentum for other more concrete European initiatives. On the occasion of the second Assembly of the Council of Europe, Churchill gave a speech in Strasbourg’s Place Kléber before 20,000 people enthused about the idea of Europe.

    In one of his speeches before the British Parliament in the framework of discussions on common defence policy, Churchill even went so far as to suggest the need to cede parcels of sovereignty in order to move towards political union in Europe: “Mutual aid in the economic field and joint military defence must inevitably be accompanied step by step with a parallel policy of closer political unity.” During the parliamentary debates in 1950 about the Schuman Plan for the formation of the European Coal and Steel Community, he lambasted the “insular” attitude of Atlee’s Labour Government, which had chosen to participate as a mere observer with third-level delegates.

    (...) A first line of interpretation that seeks to exonerate Churchill from the accusation of inconsistency is that his second Government’s foreign policy was managed by Anthony Eden, who clearly never communed with the cause of European unity nor indeed with Britain’s participation in it. The political survival of Churchill in the Government depended in good measure on support from Eden, the party-anointed successor, with whom Churchill tried to avoid conflict. However, Churchill was not one to shy away from a fight for ideas that he considered important. Europe was simply not a high enough priority for him in his second Government.


    More well-founded is a second interpretation, which points to Churchill’s view–shared by the British establishment–of Great Britain’s special place in the world. According to this view, this British distinctiveness arose from belonging simultaneously to three interlinked circles: Europe, the United States of America and the British Commonwealth. Europe, the first circle, could not impede or restrict Britain in terms of meeting the special “Atlantic” and “Imperial” missions of the other two circles. This is why in fact, beyond the dreams and speeches of Europhiles like Churchill, Britain never truly felt entirely European, and felt less so when it might involve more costs than benefits.

    The ambivalent attitude of the United Kingdom towards Europe continued even after its application for admission to the European Community was accepted in 1969. The British would repeatedly push for greater integration, then jump off the bus and slow down the process. Curiously, British nalysts liked to allude to the process of formation of the United States of America after independence as a case of exemplary integration. Perhaps were they unaware that by doing so they were setting out on a course where one day they would face existential decisions that collided with the sacred legacy of British uniqueness and independence.

    The decision of the United Kingdom in 2016 to withdraw from the European Union, the so-called Brexit, must be seen as a natural culmination of the ambivalence and ambiguity that have always characterized the relationship between Great Britain and Europe"

    ------
    Let's move on. From the news, without comments,
    'Betrayed': UK fishing industry says Brexit deal threatens long ...

    The UK’s fishing sector will face immediate hardship and long-lasting damage under the new European Union deal, industry leaders and boat owners have claimed.
    the NFFO’s chief executive, Barrie Deas, said there was a growing feeling of disappointment and frustration in the industry.
    Irish fishing groups condemned the Brexit deal as a grave setback.


    "...this boat.. I will spend probably 30%-40% of my year in French waters...we...sent our boats to Holland for refit -we haven’t got the infrasctruture to refit this boat here, so we are closely geographically and politically tied with Europe. This all thing was just pointless"

    Nicola Sturgeon makes case
    ...for Scotland joining Ireland as an independent nation in the EU in a column for the Irish Times.
    Could Britain rejoin the EU? It seems like a hopelessly lost ...

    The conventional wisdom says no.
    if we want to come back, we’ll have to do so...by agreeing to join the euro, a bridge too far even for some committed remainers.
    The easy assumption is that this question has been settled for a generation or more. But politics moves faster now. The case for a second Scottish independence referendum is looking increasingly hard to resist, less than seven years after that issue was also supposedly settled for a generation. (If an independent Scotland rejoins the EU, alongside a Northern Ireland that is already half-in, then the question will press on England and Wales all the harder)
    Last edited by Ludicus; January 03, 2021 at 09:41 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

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