View Poll Results: Are you against or in favour of Scottish independence?

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  • Against.

    3 15.79%
  • In favour.

    13 68.42%
  • Other/I am not sure.

    3 15.79%
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Thread: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    Spain won't block Scotland if the separation was consentual and agreed upon with London.
    Yup exactly and thats what Sturgeon is heading for. Another question is of course how it will work in reality ;-)

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  2. #22
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Scots don't want to leave. Sturgeon wants Scotland to leave along with a large minority. But there was a referendum 5 years ago and things have not changed much since then.
    WHAT? We've been taken out of the EU against our will, and the UK has become a one-party state under Boris Johnson for probably the next 10 years. If you'd told anyone in Scotland these things in 2014 they would have been on the floor laughing.

    She can't hold referendum after referendum till she gets the result she wants.
    And yet the Tories can just hold election after election until they get the result THEY want, in order to push through major constitutional changes which only a minority of Brits support? Britain does not want Brexit, and the Tories know it - we wanted a second referendum, and Johnson knew he would lose it, so he did everything possible to bypass the spirit of democracy in order to avoid it.

    Anecdotally, I'm seeing more and more No voters coming over to the Yes side. Scottish Labour has now all but given up its support for the Union. The Scottish Tories are dead in the water. We are well within reach of independence, all it would take is a good referendum campaign and we would be over the line. There are many people still to be convinced, but most of them are not anti-independence in principle, they are just sceptical about the short-term consequences. A lot of work has been done on hashing out the details of things like currency and debt since 2014, we have a whole new manifesto to present to the Scottish people when the time comes. Sturgeon has a mandate for another referendum. It's just a question of picking the right moment, which will probably be next year.
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  3. #23
    Cope's Avatar Have you no decency?
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    WHAT? We've been taken out of the EU against our will
    There is no "our will". The United Kingdom is a member of the European Union, not Scotland.

    and the UK has become a one-party state under Boris Johnson for probably the next 10 years.
    Oh no! A party won a general election! It's fascism all over again!

    If you'd told anyone in Scotland these things in 2014 they would have been on the floor laughing.
    Counter factual history.

    And yet the Tories can just hold election after election until they get the result THEY want in order to push through major constitutional changes which only a minority of Brits support?
    Are you talking about the same election which the SNP supported so they could get the result THEY wanted in an attempt to push through their own major constitutional change which only a tiny minority of Brits support?

    Laughable.

    Britain does not want Brexit, and the Tories know it - we wanted a second referendum, and Johnson knew he would lose it
    If Britain didn't want Brexit then it shouldn't have voted to leave in 2016, returned 80% of parliamentarians who supported leaving in 2017 or given Boris Johnson a majority in 2019.

    so he did everything possible to bypass the spirit of democracy in order to avoid it.
    Having an election because Parliament refused to honour the result of its own referendum after having pledged to do so is "bypassing the spirit of democracy"?

    Again, laughable.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    There is no "our will". The United Kingdom is a member of the European Union, not Scotland.
    Scotland is a proud nation with a history longer than almost any other country's on earth. The people of Scotland are to be taken out of the EU against the wishes of the majority of the Scottish voting public. That means that Scotland has a democratic deficit which its membership of the UK has created. I'm not suggesting taking us out of the EU is somehow illegal or improper. It's simply against our democratic wishes, and against the promises which underlay our decision in 2014 to remain in the UK. All we ask is one more referendum which can reflect the present state of affairs, and not the state of affairs of a different political era.

    Oh no! A party won a general election! It's fascism all over again!
    A party which Scotland does not want, and has emphatically rejected at the ballot box again and again for decades. That may be good democracy for those in England, but it's not good democracy for those in Scotland.

    Are you talking about the same election which the SNP supported so they could get the result THEY wanted in an attempt to push through their own major constitutional change which only a tiny minority of Brits support?
    Yes, that's the one. It was YOU who stated it was a bad thing to hold elections and referenda. I never did, I just wanted to use your own logic against you. As a democrat I happen to think it's a good thing to exercise democracy. I have no problem with the 2019 election per se, it was the lack of a referendum which was the problem.

    And what on earth has 'a majority of Brits' to do with Scottish matters? If a majority of Chinese wanted to annex Britain, would that be acceptable to you? No? Then why is relevant what the majority of English, Welsh and Northern Irish people think about Scotland?

    If Britain didn't want Brexit then it shouldn't have voted to leave in 2016, returned 80% of parliamentarians who supported leaving in 2017 or given Boris Johnson a majority in 2019.
    England may or may not still want Brexit, we don't know as there hasn't been a referendum recently. But by your same logic, Scotland, which gave the SNP a majority time and time again within Scotland, deserves the chance to get off the ride.



    Your whole post smacks of 'one rule for England, another for Scotland'. Anything the Tories do is good, while when Scots do the same thing, it's bad.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  5. #25
    Cope's Avatar Have you no decency?
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    Scotland is a proud nation with a history longer than almost any other country's on earth.
    Back to the medieval romanticism again I see.

    The people of Scotland are to be taken out of the EU against the wishes of the majority of the Scottish voting public. That means that Scotland has a democratic deficit which its membership of the UK has created. I'm not suggesting taking us out of the EU is somehow illegal or improper. It's simply against our democratic wishes, and against the promises which underlay our decision in 2014 to remain in the UK.
    Regional disagreement with a national decision does not create a "democratic deficit".

    All we ask is one more referendum which can reflect the present state of affairs, and not the state of affairs of a different political era.
    As per the original agreement, the vote was a once in a generation opportunity. Five years is not a generation. And no one buys the "material change in circumstances" argument either since Scotland leaving the United Kingdom would necessarily result in it exiting the European Union irrespective of the 2016 referendum.

    A party which Scotland does not want, and has emphatically rejected at the ballot box again and again for decades. That may be good democracy for those in England, but it's not good democracy for those in Scotland.
    The existence of the Scottish Parliament more than compensates for that.

    Yes, that's the one. It was YOU who stated it was a bad thing to hold elections and referenda.
    What I reject are attempts to vandalize the constitution with "neverendum" demands. Your position would only be tenable if one of the following were true: a) there hadn't been a recent referendum on Scottish independence; b) polling showed a clear and sustained lead for Scotland exiting the United Kingdom; c) a national government hadn't been elected on a platform of opposing a 2d. referendum.

    I never did, I just wanted to use your own logic against you. As a democrat I happen to think it's a good thing to exercise democracy.
    Then you'll accept the outcome of the 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2019 elections?

    I have no problem with the 2019 election per se, it was the lack of a referendum which was the problem.
    Holding another election (the decision to leave the EU has already been confirmed at least three times) would have zero effect on either your, or the SNP's, general position.

    And what on earth has 'a majority of Brits' to do with Scottish matters? If a majority of Chinese wanted to annex Britain, would that be acceptable to you? No? Then why is relevant what the majority of English, Welsh and Northern Irish people think about Scotland?
    Scotland was not "annexed" by Britain.

    England may or may not still want Brexit, we don't know as there hasn't been a referendum recently.
    2016 is more than recent enough.

    But by your same logic, Scotland, which gave the SNP a majority time and time again within Scotland, deserves the chance to get off the ride.
    The SNP does not have a "majority" in Holyrood. Nor did a majority of Scots vote for the SNP the national elections. Nor does leaving the United Kingdom hold a clear lead in the polls.

    Your whole post smacks of 'one rule for England, another for Scotland'. Anything the Tories do is good, while when Scots do the same thing, it's bad.
    Your whole posts smacks of "constitutional issues can only be resolved by the ballot box if I agree with the outcome".

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Regional disagreement with a national decision does not create a "democratic deficit".
    Hate to be that guy but axctchually Scotland is a country not a region, as are England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

    Furthermore being in the UK means that naturally one scottish vote is equal to one non-scottish vote. You agree to adhere to what the result of whatever the UK votes for whether in a referendum or in Parliament.

    Its obviously not unheard for countries to secede on the basis of political differences, but I have to admit its bizarre for an ostensibly nationalist party to want to transfer sovereignty to Brussels like the SNP does. They would also need to give up their currency.
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  7. #27

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Would they have to give ip their currency? Why?

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Hate to be that guy but axctchually Scotland is a country not a region, as are England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
    I'm using the term in a general rather than a technical sense. Either way, a constituent nation disagreeing with a whole national decision does not create a "democratic deficit".

    Furthermore being in the UK means that naturally one scottish vote is equal to one non-scottish vote. You agree to adhere to what the result of whatever the UK votes for whether in a referendum or in Parliament.
    Indeed.

    It’s obviously not unheard for countries to secede on the basis of political differences, but I have to admit it’s bizarre for an ostensibly nationalist party to want to transfer sovereignty to Brussels like the SNP does. They would also need to give up their currency.
    Scotland is extraordinarily well represented within the United Kingdom. It has its own parliament which can take care of the day-to-day concerns of its citizens (NHS, education, housing etc.) but it retains the financial and military protection of the United Kingdom. Thanks to fptp (which the nats. have spent the last 3 weeks complaining about) the SNP are able to exert a degree of influence in Westminster which far exceeds the number of people who actually vote for them (the recent election being a case in point).

    And you're right that outside the UK but inside the EU Scotland would be at the complete mercy of Franco-German interests (which one has to assume includes full federalization). It was hard enough for the whole the UK (70m+ people and 2d. largest contributor to the EU) to get its way, but for an "independent" Scotland inside Schengen and the Eurozone it would be an impossible task. As it stands, they would have 6/751 (<0.8%) seats in the European Parliament and about the same percentage of total EU GDP.
    Last edited by Cope; January 03, 2020 at 02:21 PM.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Would they have to give ip their currency? Why?
    That's a current condition of joining the European Union.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Would they have to give ip their currency? Why?
    It’s an entry requirement. They’d also need a 3% budgetary defecit which is unlikely given it’s currently 7%, and that’s at a 7 year low as well as 7 times that of the rest of the uk.
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  11. #31

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Do they really have to join the Eurozone if you want to join the EU? Can you guys cite that?

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On


  13. #33
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Um ..Czech Republic for example? By joining EU we commited to get EURO..eventually but even if we are quite close in economic terms, we will do when we want...(= later. )

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_...c_and_the_euro

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlarg...f_the_eurozone

    So nope. This is political process with final state which hardly anybody can press you into. Just look at some state like France, Spain, Greece and if Scotland is kinda okish, it will pass...

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  14. #34
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Um ..Czech Republic for example? By joining EU we commited to get EURO..eventually but even if we are quite close in economic terms, we will do when we want...(= later. )

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_...c_and_the_euro

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlarg...f_the_eurozone

    So nope. This is political process with final state which hardly anybody can press you into. Just look at some state like France, Spain, Greece and if Scotland is kinda okish, it will pass...
    "So nope" what? The Czech Republic is committed to joining the Eurozone and will do in due course. This is a commitment that the Scots will also have to make. In the meantime, they will be effectively subjugated by Westminster's monetary policy as long as they retain the pound sterling. That is, unless they want to go down the dangerous road of creating their own currency - which would make trading with both the rUK and the EU a nightmare.

    So unlike the Czechs, Poles and others who have no particular motivation to adopt the Euro any time soon and who've had their own currencies since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Scots would be under pressure to join the Eurozone as quickly as possible.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    WHAT? We've been taken out of the EU against our will, and the UK has become a one-party state under Boris Johnson for probably the next 10 years. If you'd told anyone in Scotland these things in 2014 they would have been on the floor laughing.
    - Scots will be taken out of EU whether Scotland remains in the UK or not at this point
    - The opinions of the Scots about a new referendum are split around the middle when they were 55% pro-remain in UK. As such, just 5% changed their opinion after all those things that they would be laughing about 5 years ago happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    Britain does not want Brexit, and the Tories know it - we wanted a second referendum, and Johnson knew he would lose it, so he did everything possible to bypass the spirit of democracy in order to avoid it.
    British voters most certainly do want to leave EU. In the elections just a month ago, UK voted massively pro-leave EU giving Johnson that huge majority some people harpy about.

    Having an election because Parliament refused to honour the result of its own referendum after having pledged to do so is "bypassing the spirit of democracy"?

    Again, laughable.
    Well... that.
    The parliament had not acted on the will of the people (Brexit referendum) for years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    Scotland is a proud nation with a history longer than almost any other country's on earth.
    Nope. Scotland's history starts in the 9th century but then the Saxons were added. But even if we go at 9th century... most people in the middle East have waaaaaaaaaaaay longer history.
    1200 years is not much actually even for ... the British isles (Irish are around since the 5th century or something).
    I.e. I would say "Scotland is a proud nation with a relatively short history"
    Last edited by alhoon; January 03, 2020 at 06:59 PM.
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  16. #36
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    "So nope" what? The Czech Republic is committed to joining the Eurozone and will do in due course. This is a commitment that the Scots will also have to make. In the meantime, they will be effectively subjugated by Westminster's monetary policy as long as they retain the pound sterling. That is, unless they want to go down the dangerous road of creating their own currency - which would make trading with both the rUK and the EU a nightmare.

    So unlike the Czechs, Poles and others who have no particular motivation to adopt the Euro any time soon and who've had their own currencies since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Scots would be under pressure to join the Eurozone as quickly as possible.
    And when exactly is our "will do in due course"? Now just to be clear, Im pro EU while majority of my country is euro sceptic so just take my word that unless there is some major reason, we wont be having euro in 5 years. Maybe next decade...

    And what does it tell us about Scotland? Actually a lot. Lets say UK will leave EU. Soon (TM) That is massive hit for EU PR. What is best counter measure? New member joining. So in case Scontland will legally say "f off" westminster, it is clear way back. This is actually nice scenario for Spain as they will not let Catalania out so easily. And of course after such upheaval nobody will force them into Euro. Give them decade to solve their own problems, stabilize...WHo know what will be in 10 years. Plus imagine the fun down the road once Scotland is in EU and UK will decide to join back. Olala that would be great Monty Python.

    You fail to understand that EU is political monster. Despite being so byrocratic. If there is political will, there will be way...;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    British voters most certainly do want to leave EU. In the elections just a month ago, UK voted massively pro-leave EU giving Johnson that huge majority some people harpy about.
    Actually,
    In last week’s election, candidates for remain-supporting parties received 16.5 million votes, while candidates for leave-supporting parties received 14.8 million.

    The 14.8 million gave the leave supporters a majority of 80 seats in the House of Commons.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ection-results

    Only because remain votes were spread among many parties, conservatives won. Just look up how votes translate into mandates. So while Johnson won GE, saying that majority wants brexit is quite strong ;-) Effective majority in terms of GE - yes. Real majority....

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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Yes, but adopting the euro will still be a requirement for joining the EU.
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Oh yes, it will be..down the line..sometime...somewhere...

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  19. #39

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Hmm, I was always under the impression that while the EU pressured countries to join the Eurozone, it didn't actually "require" them to do so. That's why countries that don't use the Euro like Romania and Sweden still exist. I have to say, the language in the Maastricht Treaty is quite vague. The intent behind monetary integration is pretty straightforward, but the implementation is not completely specific. I'm a critic of the Euro and contemporary EU economic policies in general (and German), but I never realized just how invasive EU intentions are. I've never actually read the original text of EU treaties, so this has been educational.

    That said, would Scotland have to adopt the Euro if they seceded and joined the EU? I have my doubts about that.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    And when exactly is our "will do in due course"? Now just to be clear, Im pro EU while majority of my country is euro sceptic so just take my word that unless there is some major reason, we wont be having euro in 5 years. Maybe next decade...
    The Czechs would probably have adopted it already had it not been for the Eurozone crisis. Then you too would be a subject of the Germans (again).

    And what does it tell us about Scotland? Actually a lot. Lets say UK will leave EU. Soon (TM)
    January 31st (that's 27 days) to be precise.

    That is massive hit for EU PR. What is best counter measure? New member joining. So in case Scontland will legally say "f off" westminster, it is clear way back. This is actually nice scenario for Spain as they will not let Catalania out so easily. And of course after such upheaval nobody will force them into Euro. Give them decade to solve their own problems, stabilize...WHo know what will be in 10 years. Plus imagine the fun down the road once Scotland is in EU and UK will decide to join back. Olala that would be great Monty Python.
    No one has claimed that the EU wouldn't let an independent Scotland back in, but that doesn't mean that Scotland would be given an opt out for joining the single currency. Aexodus' point about the pointlessness of Scotland exiting the UK only to surrender even more of its sovereignty to the EU still stands.

    You fail to understand that EU is political monster. Despite being so byrocratic. If there is political will, there will be way...;-)
    I think I understand very well that the EU is an expansionist "political monster" which feigns subservience to regulations until it suits them otherwise. Though perhaps you can put your can-do attitude toward building positive energy for the forthcoming UK-EU free trade deal?

    Actually,

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ection-results

    Only because remain votes were spread among many parties, conservatives won. Just look up how votes translate into mandates. So while Johnson won GE, saying that majority wants brexit is quite strong ;-) Effective majority in terms of GE - yes. Real majority....
    Actually...

    The Labour Party was not a "remain-supporting" party. It favoured a 2nd. referendum with a credible leave option. Not only are the author's comments factually incorrect, but they also conveniently fail to mention that the direct (that is proportional) vote to leave the European Union was ignored. Some people, it seems, will never be satisfied.
    Last edited by Cope; January 03, 2020 at 11:47 PM.

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