View Poll Results: Are you against or in favour of Scottish independence?

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  • Against.

    3 15.79%
  • In favour.

    13 68.42%
  • Other/I am not sure.

    3 15.79%
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Thread: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

  1. #1

    Default Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    The Battle for Britain has now ended. Now, the Battle for Scotland begins.

    The Scottish parliament has passed a bill laying out the frameworks for a potential future second referendum on Scotland’s independence from the UK.

    The 2014 Scottish independence referendum saw the country vote to remain part of the UK by 55.3% to 44.7%, but the movement for an independent Scotland has grown stronger and more vocal since the UK as a whole voted in 2016 to leave the EU. While Brexit received a majority vote UK-wide, with 51.9% voting to leave, 62% of Scottish voters opted to remain in the EU; and Scottish campaigners and parliamentarians have expressed extensive concerns since the initial Brexit referendum that the particular concerns and needs of Scotland have been sidelined during Brexit negotiations and preparations.
    The new Referendums (Scotland) Bill incorporates the Scottish franchise, enabling EU citizens living in Scotland and young people aged 16 and 17 to vote. It strengthens regulation of social media campaigning and implements stricter penalties for campaigns which do not adhere to the rules; and mandates that referendum questions must be approved by the UK’s Electoral Commission.
    Scotland’s Constitutional Relations Secretary Michael Russell said: “Today we are closer to giving the Scottish people a choice over the path our country should take. With this legislative framework in place, it only requires a short bill for an independence referendum to be held once a transfer of power, which puts holding a referendum beyond challenge, is devolved to the Scottish government. These robust regulations will allow debate to focus on the issues at stake in referendums, not procedure, and ensure that the results can be accepted by all parties. Legal changes are required to keep pace with the way campaigns are now conducted. To protect the space for rational, respectful debate, it must be clear who is behind online campaign activity, while those who break rules should be properly sanctioned. This bill addresses both these issues.”
    Source: https://www.governmenteuropa.eu/scot...-brexit/95967/


    The Anglos down south have been quick to invoke the ghost of Longshanks himself.
    New battle over Scottish independence has begun

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    The die is cast. Parliament has backed Boris Johnson’s withdrawal agreement, putting Britain on course to leave the EU on January 31. It is now clear that the future of the UK union itself will move centre stage next year. The Scottish National party, armed with electoral gains this month and the argument that Brexit is a material change to the UK’s constitutional make-up, wants a new vote on independence. Supporters of the union must make the case for its survival.Viewed from Scotland, political arguments for independence have strengthened. The 55-45 “No” vote to independence in its 2014 poll never envisaged that Scotland would within years be pulled out of the EU by a majority vote in England and Wales, after Scotland backed Remain 62-38.Mr Johnson’s withdrawal deal hands SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon even more ammunition. It grants close economic alignment with the EU to Northern Ireland to prevent a “hard” border with the south. Ms Sturgeon notes her proposals to enable Scotland to remain in the EU single market and customs union were, by contrast, ignored.The economic case for independence has, however, weakened further. Brent crude was at $100-plus a barrel before the 2014 referendum. Today it is $65. That makes it all the harder for Scotland to fund itself without the sizeable net budgetary transfer it receives from the UK. The annual Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland review found Scotland ran a notional budget deficit of 7 per cent of output in 2018-19, even after including a share of North Sea revenues. The type of Brexit Mr Johnson is targeting would reduce the future UK-EU relationship to a trade deal. If Scotland then broke away but remained in the EU this would create a hard border between it and England, causing further economic harm.The UK prime minister is right to refuse Ms Sturgeon’s calls for a new referendum in 2020. The SNP’s 45 per cent share of the Scottish vote in the general election is no independence mandate. Indeed, the party surely realises a plebiscite next year is neither likely nor well-advised — but hopes repeated rebuffs by Mr Johnson will bolster its vote in the 2021 Scottish parliament election. The government should, however, be working hard to win over Scots hearts and minds.Former premier David Cameron devolved additional powers to Scotland after 2014, including on income tax rates and bands, but the structure needs further reform. Ms Sturgeon has requested more concessions, from control of Scottish rail franchises and infrastructure to exemptions from a UK law that blocks proposed anti-heroin programmes in Glasgow. They would not cost London much to grant.Brexit must also be used as an opportunity to redistribute responsibilities within the UK. Many powers that will be repatriated from Brussels are in devolved areas; Scottish leaders fear a Westminster “power grab”. Ensuring Scotland receives powers it is entitled to, particularly in farming and fisheries, risks complicating efforts to reach UK trade deals with, say, the US. Yet it may be the price of saving the union.This newspaper firmly supports the United Kingdom as one of the most successful political marriages in history. But the argument that Britain’s departure from the EU changes the constitutional situation is legitimate. If parties that unequivocally support a new independence referendum win a majority under Scotland’s proportional system in the 2021 election, the case to grant one may become unanswerable. Before then, if it is to preserve the UK, the government must do all it can to persuade Scots once again to vote No.
    Source: https://www.ft.com/content/f3822258-...1-584213ee7b2b



    Let us not forget the hundreds of years of persecution and extermination the Anglos have attempted upon the Scots, never forget William Wallace, or the spirit of Bannockburn:

  2. #2
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    From your own source:
    "Polling data collected by What Scotland Thinks suggests an increase in support for independence - but it generally remains just short of a majority."

    And that happened days after the election for Brexit, as anger is raw.


    In short: No, Scots don't want to leave. Sturgeon wants Scotland to leave along with a large minority. But there was a referendum 5 years ago and things have not changed much since then.
    She can't hold referendum after referendum till she gets the result she wants.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    A lot can change in 5 years; as Brexit would show. Scots are reasonably pissed that the UK will become just another Anglo dominated american colony and could see the NHS torn apart by american vulture funds; already the petition to grant another referendum has hit 500k (
    Petition calling for Scottish independence hits 500,000 signatures
    )
    Source: https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...ures-1-5065141

    This is no small movement and sensing blood, the Irish are keen to reunite the northern irish back with their brethren.

  4. #4
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    A lot can change in 5 years; as Brexit would show. Scots are reasonably pissed that the UK will become just another Anglo dominated american colony and could see the NHS torn apart by american vulture funds; already the petition to grant another referendum has hit 500k ()
    Source: https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...ures-1-5065141
    This is no small movement... but it is not big enough either.
    As I said, even with raw wounds and anger ... the polls still show the Scotts don't want to leave. Within the margin of error, but I would expect it would have spiked by now.


    And that's before we go to the "Difficult" questions that Sturgeon is answering with wishes.
    Again from your own source, it is clear that even if they started the "divorce process" tomorrow, it would take longer than Brexit. As such Scotland would start outside the EU.

    Sturgeon's answers are uninspiring well-wishes. She more or less says "OK, we will be out of the EU for some time and as it is our economy would take years to reach EU's standards but I am sure we will do veeeeeery well in economy, and keep growing and growing till we can enter the EU in several years".

    What that means? It means that Scotland would be a poor country out of the EU that a poltician promises they will do well for years and years and that eventually they will be in a good enough situation to get in the EU.

    At this time it's not "With England and outside the EU" or "Without England within EU"!
    It is "Out of EU in any case. Within England or without?"
    And I don't think the Scots would say "Well, let's go at it completely alone.
    Last edited by alhoon; December 23, 2019 at 06:24 AM.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On



    In that case England will even change his Flag?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    I doubt Scotland will ever leave. The referendum lost fair n' square and I'm sure that'll hang in the minds of anyone thinking about leaving UK. That said, I think the election results suggest that Scots will form their own voting block and will simply coalition with whatever party, Labour, Conservatives, or Lib-Dems, aligns closest with their interests.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    It will happen, sooner or later. Decolonisation of Ireland as well.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  8. #8

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    This is no small movement... but it is not big enough either.
    As I said, even with raw wounds and anger ... the polls still show the Scotts don't want to leave. Within the margin of error, but I would expect it would have spiked by now.


    And that's before we go to the "Difficult" questions that Sturgeon is answering with wishes.
    Again from your own source, it is clear that even if they started the "divorce process" tomorrow, it would take longer than Brexit. As such Scotland would start outside the EU.

    Sturgeon's answers are uninspiring well-wishes. She more or less says "OK, we will be out of the EU for some time and as it is our economy would take years to reach EU's standards but I am sure we will do veeeeeery well in economy, and keep growing and growing till we can enter the EU in several years".

    What that means? It means that Scotland would be a poor country out of the EU that a poltician promises they will do well for years and years and that eventually they will be in a good enough situation to get in the EU.

    At this time it's not "With England and outside the EU" or "Without England within EU"!
    It is "Out of EU in any case. Within England or without?"
    And I don't think the Scots would say "Well, let's go at it completely alone.
    Well, circumstances have changed; surely you must accept that with Brexit a real possibility, that the Scots can't be expected to also stay with the English on this ride; this simply wasn't what the Scots signed on for, especially when most of the Remain votes were in Scotland itself.

    Secondly, Bruxelles is extremely angry and will want to make Perfidious Albion bleed for their insolence and insult against the glory of the euro empire. Remmeber what Guy Verhofstadht said about Empires.




    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    I doubt Scotland will ever leave. The referendum lost fair n' square and I'm sure that'll hang in the minds of anyone thinking about leaving UK. That said, I think the election results suggest that Scots will form their own voting block and will simply coalition with whatever party, Labour, Conservatives, or Lib-Dems, aligns closest with their interests.
    Again, circumstances have changed and the will of the Scots must be respected. History demands a new king of scots. Robert Bruce and William Wallace's arm would roil at the thought of bending the knee to London.

  9. #9
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    I accept that situation has changed but as I said, it's not "within the EU or within England" it's "We will be out of EU. Should we remain in UK or leave and be out of EU and out of UK?"

    The will of the Scotts must be respected. And the Will of the Scotts just 5 years ago was to remain with England through the thick and thin.
    Even now, with the specter of a bad Brexit fresh and the wounds raw as the elections just handed Jonson a strong majority ... half the Scotts say they want to remain!
    When the tensions cool and Sturgeon's non-answers come to the front the Will of the Scotts would be even more strongly pro-remain with England.

    Even if the Polls at this time with the wounds fresh and the SNP flag-waving and no realization that "woopsie, we will be out of the EU anyway" were like 55% pro-leave England (which they are not) things would quickly change towards pro-England as the problems of going at it alone surfaced and the anger over the elections subsided.
    And ... at this time they are not 55% leave - 45% remain, they are 50/50!

    I am sorry free-Scotland supporters, but as things are right now, it will simply not happen.
    Last edited by alhoon; December 24, 2019 at 07:34 AM.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    emotions certainly are running quite high at the moment; big question now would be whether or not London would resort to force of arms if the Scots refuse to budge on Independance?
    Northern Ireland on the other hand is another can of worms, the trend is for a united Ireland now the Brexit is more or less guaranteed.

  11. #11
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    emotions certainly are running quite high at the moment; big question now would be whether or not London would resort to force of arms if the Scots refuse to budge on Independance?
    Northern Ireland on the other hand is another can of worms, the trend is for a united Ireland now the Brexit is more or less guaranteed.
    Actually Ireland has a way out. If Northern Ireland gets away from the UK then they would get back in the EU. However, the people of Northern Ireland don't want to leave UK. It's not close to 50/50 like in Scotland, it's much pro "remain in the UK".

    Also, why on earth would London resort to "force of arms"?! The Scots:
    - Don't want Independence
    - Don't want another referendum
    - If they change their mind and decide to leave, England wouldn't care that much. Scotland doesn't contribute much to England after the oil of the Northern Sea has started drying up.
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  12. #12
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Well the real question is what will happen after brexit, because the process is just starting. UK is still yet in EU, future relations/trade agreement...well we will see in year if UK is not leaving wiht no deal after all. And after all of this, if UK economics is going down no matter what is the real cause (next crisis, bojo´s reforms....) it will probably boost independence + EU rejoin percentage.

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  13. #13

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    The only way Scotland will win an independence referendum is if they let the English vote in it.

  14. #14
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    I wasn't sure what to vote in the poll, so I went with other. I'm in favour of Scottish independence, in theory. I am however against continuously holding referendums until we get the desired result.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    I am however against continuously holding referendums until we get the desired result.
    However previous referendum was held upon logic that:
    independence=leaving EU/leaving UK=hard way back to EU while UK stays in and might block it while staying in UK=stay in EU.

    While current situation is quite opposite:
    independence=return to EU asap while staying in UK = leaving EU for good

    So while I understand reason for not repeating referendums till getting "right" result, conditions are very different this time.

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  16. #16
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Joining the EU is currently not possible for Scotland as they run too large a deficit, which will be hard to overturn when they get a disproportionate amount of tax revenue from HMRC.

    In addition, Scotland would need to adopt the Euro, which isn’t a particularly popular idea in Scotland, and would cause Scotland to lose control of monetary policy.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Joining the EU is currently not possible for Scotland as they run too large a deficit, which will be hard to overturn when they get a disproportionate amount of tax revenue from HMRC.

    In addition, Scotland would need to adopt the Euro, which isn’t a particularly popular idea in Scotland, and would cause Scotland to lose control of monetary policy.
    You need all the other EU countries to agree. Spain will never allow Scotland in as it will legitimise future Catalan attempts for independence.

  18. #18
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    You need all the other EU countries to agree. Spain will never allow Scotland in as it will legitimise future Catalan attempts for independence.
    If Scotland legally gets its way ..why not? Spain is threatening to block Catalonia to prevent one side declaration of independence. Because Spain probably never will allow Catalonia to secede but Sturgeon and SNP want to get process legally in work with Westminster. Well current Bojo´s comments and others seems like Westminster is unlikely to grant referendum but who knows what will happen in next years ;-)

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  19. #19
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Joining the EU is currently not possible for Scotland as they run too large a deficit, which will be hard to overturn when they get a disproportionate amount of tax revenue from HMRC.
    That and

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    You need all the other EU countries to agree. Spain will never allow Scotland in as it will legitimise future Catalan attempts for independence.
    that.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Scottish Independance II: Scots Fight On

    Spain won't block Scotland if the separation was consentual and agreed upon with London.
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