The first big victory of the "fans".

[Cookiegod]

The worth of a hero is defined by his adversaries. If you make the hero perfection and the antagonists a pathetic bunch of incompetent crybabies who get beaten every single time, then you are not going to get an interesting story.

Except with Star wars. Personally I am surprised that no American cinema has been sued for the lack of seat belts, given how the riveting plot drags you to the edge of your seat, and beyond.

[Love Mountain]

The worth of a hero is defined by his adversaries. If you make the hero perfection and the antagonists a pathetic bunch of incompetent crybabies who get beaten every single time, then you are not going to get an interesting story.

Except with Star wars. Personally I am surprised that no American cinema has been sued for the lack of seat belts, given how the riveting plot drags you to the edge of your seat, and beyond.

Adversity, not adversaries I'd argue. There are plenty of films that lack a good "main villain" or have no villain, but are excellent because of how interesting the hero's journey is.

[Sir Adrian]

So, you have to congratulate the fans for their victory, or you have to ask the creators to have enough courage to do the piece they want to do? They have to tell certain people "### off" or have to listen to their criticisms and make a product that pleases them? What is gained by paying attention to these small groups that usually only use ridiculous arguments?

The new Star Wars was ruined by Kathleen Kennedy wanting to make a feminist movie with feminist values for a feminist audience. Several directors and actors got fired for reasons like (I will paraphrase here) "Rey does not need to learn anything. women are strong so she should be able to do everything better than Luke from the start" and "the movies do not need to tell a story, they need to convey how great Rey, and women in general, are".

Blaming this on the people who pointed out the problems since the first movie is simply an act of denial.

Meanwhile the Madalorian, a tv show that IS fan-service and did not take the "progressive" route is doing great. So great in fact that John Favreau will get Feminist Kathleen's job.

Adversity, not adversaries I'd argue. There are plenty of films that lack a good "main villain" or have no villain, but are excellent because of how interesting the hero's journey is.

This. The original trilogy was so good because it was Luke's bildungsroman. It showed him going from failure to failure while learning how to be a Jedi and develop his powers until finally completing his training when he refrained from killing his father. It was about the journey.

[Kyriakos]

Well, even so, Luke destroyed the Death Star. I am struggling with trying to see the SW movies as anything but ridiculous space-opera
That they got even worse in time isn't much of a surprise.

[Cookiegod]

Well, even so, Luke destroyed the Death Star. I am struggling with trying to see the SW movies as anything but ridiculous space-opera
That they got even worse in time isn't much of a surprise.

It is a bit of a surprise though. A multibillion corporation I expect to make smart business decisions. Those here got messed up really badly. And if they fave politics or art over money, I'd expect something profound. New Lucasfilm did neither of the three. That is actually an achievement of its own. Then to get people fetishising this franchise the way e.g. mishkin does is also quite the achievement.

[Kyriakos]

Continuity would have been very difficult when the script-writer is someone different from the original one. And this not even being adapted from a book makes it a lot easier to be without a compass. Consider, for example, the Dune movie/tv series, and the new Dune movie in the works: they are all (apparently) pretty much about the first book of Dune (likely because it was the only critically acclaimed one; apart from God-Emperor). So they are presenting the same story, already available in specific form in a book, over and over again, which makes it easier to present some improvement here and there.
In the end it comes down to how talented - or not - the script writer is. I hear the BBC new tv series based on War of the Worlds has bombed. Not surprised at all (I saw the trailer, and it was terrible), given how the BBC approaches adaptations and routinely ruins the original with massive and dumb alterations.
And while SJW/minority/feminism done in non subtle way is clearly another negative, it isn't the only one. Perhaps those shows could have survived, in most cases, if the actual writing wasn't so dumb.

[Cookiegod]

Yeah it's just the excuse. In the olden days bad movies were simply bad. These days: OH YOU DON'T LIKE MY MOVIES?! You must be a sexist homophobe racist nazi incel then!

It's funny though how this political correctness is like an extreme satired version of everything Sartre criticised. The social justice movement of the 21st century is to postmodernism what 15th century Spanish Catholic church was to Christianity.

[the_mango55]

What bothers me a lot is how superficial it is, how soulless it is, how low-effort it is, how devoid of any profound message it is, and that people fall for that.

But I wasn't the one who brought up the pandering here. You were. So enlighten us. Why is pandering bad? Or why is it good all of a sudden?! How does them making a character gay or black or whatever for the sole purpose of scoring some points, but without any relevance to the story or profound message translate into a victory for social justice?

You can again see the difference between a movie that actually has a female lead and one that has a robot when comparing Rey with Clarice Sterling. Only one of them is actually a female lead through and through, and you can follow her on her journey through a male dominated hostile world, and win. The other features basically a robot who can do everything, needs no lecturing and has no weaknesses except a teeny bit of insecurity cuz "u go gurrrrl!" *snip* *snip*

Why does it require relevance to the story for a character to be gay or black or a woman?

[Gaidin]

Why does it require relevance to the story for a character to be gay or black or a woman?

Non-white, non-male community is bad. Haven't you heard?

Continuity would have been very difficult when the script-writer is someone different from the original one.

You'd have hadted the OT, they couldn't keep their script writers straight from movie to movie. Nevermind the worst Star Wars director in the world only directed the first one: George Lucas. Good day.

[Cookiegod]

Why does it require relevance to the story for a character to be gay or black or a woman?

Nice strawman.

Non-white, non-male community is bad. Haven't you heard?

Strawman.

[Gaidin]

Nice strawman.
Strawman.

[YOUTUBE]nauLgZISozs[YOUTUBE]

Comparing Silence of the Lambs to an ensemble cast Space Opera is a hilarious red herring so joke's on you.

If you knew anything about the written prejudices of Star Wars they could insert any of these genders and ethnicities and you shouldn't be asking the question. You should ask the question about aliens and where the aliens are written.

[Cookiegod]

Comparing Silence of the Lambs to an ensemble cast Space Opera is a hilarious red herring so joke's on you.

Except that I wasn't the one pretending that the space opera was the greatest thing to have happened to feminism & progressivism ever. I was the one pointing out that better movies exist, and have for a long time, that'd deserve the title more. For future reference: If you don't get the context even when you have it right in front of you, calling something a hilarious joke is not the smartest move.

If you knew anything about the written prejudices of Star Wars they could insert any of these genders and ethnicities and you shouldn't be asking the question. You should ask the question about aliens and where the aliens are written.

Those sentences made zero sense.

[alhoon]

So, you have to congratulate the fans for their victory, or you have to ask the creators to have enough courage to do the piece they want to do? They have to tell certain people "### off" or have to listen to their criticisms and make a product that pleases them? What is gained by paying attention to these small groups that usually only use ridiculous arguments?

And it was about time the fans had their victory over the SJWs.
Wonder Woman did well because it was a good movie and catered to the target group. SW IX was the best from the sequels because it wasn't propaganda.

I.e. yes, the creators have to tell certain people, the SJWs and the Feminazis to #### off, and make movies without trying to fill out a checkboard of diversity. And thankfully, the fans saw to that.

[Gaidin]

Those sentences made zero sense.

You really don't know how biased the Empire and First Order are against aliens? It's practically analogous to the Deep South in the 60's. Having a minority human character in Star Wars is nothing. Having an improperly used alien character would be the crux of an interesting question.

[Cookiegod]

You really don't know how biased the Empire and First Order are against aliens? It's practically analogous to the Deep South in the 60's.

Can't call myself an expert on the intricacies of soap opera sociology. Can't say I care either.

Having a minority human character in Star Wars is nothing. Having an improperly used alien character would be the crux of an interesting question.

... and?!

[athanaric]

You really don't know how biased the Empire and First Order are against aliens? It's practically analogous to the Deep South in the 60's. Having a minority human character in Star Wars is nothing. Having an improperly used alien character would be the crux of an interesting question.

It's interesting how you people use the term "minority". Also, are you implying that Star Wars is an allegory to internal US politics, written by a biased party? That would make sense given the lazy characterizations and implausible story. One more reason to not watch it.

[Gaidin]

It's interesting how you people use the term "minority". Also, are you implying that Star Wars is an allegory to internal US politics, written by a biased party? That would make sense given the lazy characterizations and implausible story. One more reason to not watch it.

It was only created by an American.

[Cookiegod]

hey Gaidin don't forget you wanted to elucidate us on the import of Star Wars sociology and its impact on the real world. XOXO

[Gaidin]

hey Gaidin don't forget you wanted to elucidate us on the import of Star Wars sociology and its impact on the real world. XOXO

The Empire only repealed laws banning slavery and reclassified many species like wookies and Mon Calimari as non-sentient. Others such as the Geonsians were put under genocide. I'll tell you what, you tell me.

[Cookiegod]

ok, what do you want me to tell you?