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Thread: The first big victory of the "fans".

  1. #1
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default The first big victory of the "fans".

    In recent years, niches of population of variable sizes but very enthusiastic, with a clear political agenda, almost sectarian opinions or even legitimate concerns have taken advantage of the tools at their disposal to attack or sabotage films, tv shows and videogames. The tools they use are review bombing (or vote briganding) and, of course, to spread their message in any media that allows it (twitter, reddit, TWC...).

    Examples of attacks on series or movies (wikipedia, Review bomb):

    Some television series have also been review bombed. Batwoman was review bombed for portraying the title character as a lesbian. [50] HBO's Watchmen, based on the graphic novel of the same name, was review bombed by fans of the comic that felt the series disrespected the character of Rorschach, who they felt was meant to be the hero instead of a right-wing figure as illustrated by the show, although The Mary Sue noted that the graphic novel had portrayed his character as such. [51] [52]

    The second film in the Star Wars sequel trilogy, The Last Jedi, was met with a flood of negative audience reviews on Rotten Tomatoes, in contrast to sites like CinemaScore which polled audiences in person who gave the film a positive grade of "A". Publications had suspicions about the authenticity of the audience scores; [47] [48] Polygon wrote how it was difficult to discern how many were genuine reviews and how many were bots or organized attacks, finding that many criticized the film's inclusion of "SJW" concepts or for its racial diversity and female figures. [49]


    Which brings us to... The Rise of The Skywalker and the first big win of the fans. According to most critics the film is a failure (metacritic score: 53) in part because of the need that the director has felt to placate the criticisms of, not the proffesional critics, not the general audience, but the aforementioned "fans".

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Guardian, Jordan Hoffman (Score: 100): The movie snaps together like a jigsaw puzzle, a series of concluding beats that seem inevitable and perfect, and designed to please all parties, so long as you don’t dwell on the logic too much.

    Arizona Republic, Bill Goodykoontz (Score: 70): How do you end the most iconic franchise of all time? (Don’t panic, there will be more movies, just not a part of this particular universe.) You end it by trying to please everyone. Which can make it hard to please anyone. But Abrams is a crowd-pleaser and a good one. He’s made a film that is unquestionably entertaining and wraps things up in a way that will make fans happy.

    Screen Rant, Molly Freeman (Score: 60): Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker gets bogged down in exposition and course-correcting The Last Jedi, but does have some fun moments and fan service.

    Vox, Alissa Wilkinson (Score: 30): The Rise of Skywalker falls somewhere between an overstuffed fan-service finale and a yawnfest. If The Force Awakens kicked off a new cycle in the franchise and The Last Jedi set it up to push beyond its familiar patterns, The Rise of Skywalker for the most part runs screaming in the other direction.

    (All previos critics form metacritic)

    Scott Wampler: RISE OF SKYWALKER feels like what would happen if, instead of writing an actual screenplay for a STAR WARS movie, you went on Reddit and found a list of EPISODE IX demands written by an unhinged lunatic and then just shot that instead. (https://twitter.com/ScottWamplerBMD/...88566688165890)

    Rian Johnson Calls Pandering to 'Star Wars' Fans a "Mistake"


    So, you have to congratulate the fans for their victory, or you have to ask the creators to have enough courage to do the piece they want to do? They have to tell certain people "### off" or have to listen to their criticisms and make a product that pleases them? What is gained by paying attention to these small groups that usually only use ridiculous arguments?
    Last edited by mishkin; December 19, 2019 at 07:43 AM.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  2. #2

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    I'm sure those Supreme Gentlemen in the fandom are only concerned with ethics in video game journalism.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

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    Cookiegod's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    BS strawman argument. JJA makes bad uncreative movies, there's nothing new about that. And the fact that many were upset about the TLJ movie doesn't mean that they found the one before that great.

    Also, there's no victory here anywhere. The same people who found it crap earlier still find it crap today. If this movie fails, which honestly it probably won't, it's punishment for a multibillion conglomerate making many, many stupid decisions and getting burnt for it, which I fully support.

    I dread the fact that I'll probably have to watch the movie, for the mere reason that I promised a friend. Even though I really don't want to.

    (T_T)
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    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    I thought that the point of making movies was to get enough people to want to see it, thus give you revenue. Now it seems the point of making movies was to appeal to a few nobodies who are currently self-marketed as "pro critics".
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  5. #5
    Cookiegod's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    I thought that the point of making movies was to get enough people to want to see it, thus give you revenue. Now it seems the point of making movies was to appeal to a few nobodies who are currently self-marketed as "pro critics".
    No, they're trying to expand their customer base. They take the male nerd audience for granted, and see most room for expansion amongst women and minorities. That's why they pander to them. It's got nothing to do with them actually giving a about progressive values. The old left that had countless cultural icons on their side (Orwell, Brecht, Hemingway, just to name a few) would have seen through it immediately. In today's infantilised society DISNEY (!) get's hyped like crazy.

    Again: Disney. The icon of the left.

    Anyway: They failed with that tactic, and that's good. And not everything about that failure has to be political. Apart from the very superficial pandering, the first movie of the trilogy was at its core simply a remake of the old trilogy, favouring nostalgia over actual substance. Complete with Snoke as a 1:1 emperor Palpatine replacement.

    I actually do not share the outrage at Rian Johnson for having ripped everything apart that JJ left him with, as what he was given was bad to begin with. At least he had some creative thought, and had he been given the first movie, or even the complete trilogy, the outcome might have well been much better. Be it as it may, TLJ wasn't good either, but more importantly, it had ZERO STORY LEFT FOR THE THIRD MOVIE!

    So what was JJA supposed to do here?! Well no he had to come up with something entirely new. Which is why one common complaint for the new movie seems to be, that it's too much exposition. Well no s... captn obvious?! What did you expect this was going to be?! Never mind the fact that JJA has never been good at ENDING stories?!

    Basically this trilogy is bad for very transparent reasons. But no one has to care much about it, since the damage doesn't happen immediately and mostly to brand equity. Current movies benefit from controversy, which is exactly what TLJ did. Execs tend to switch jobs every couple of years, so usually they don't worry much about the toys later not selling well, people not going to see future movies, etc., etc.

    Which btw. is where mishkin is really hypocritical. If you want to talk about the "victory" of "fans", it's gotta be when Disney had to scale back all its aggressive movie planning because of Solos relative failure.
    If you can't beat'em, join them

  6. #6

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    "The first big victory of the fans"? Somebody doesn't seem to be watching movies or TV series.
    What about the Furturama reboot, the movie Serenity, or the entire Star Trek franchise after the original series? And those are just a few examples off the top of my head, from similar genres.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    I'm sure those Supreme Gentlemen in the fandom are only concerned with ethics in video game journalism.
    It would be great if you had something to say.

  7. #7
    John Doe's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Mishkin, have you not made yourself a "fan" with the OP?
    Well may be a meta fan...

  8. #8
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    This is my idea of putting things into perspective:

    First the Bechdel Test:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    (From the comic strip Dykes to Watch Out For)



    And this is the lovely author of it, Alison Bechdel:






    Now mishkin asks:
    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    So, you have to congratulate the fans for their victory, or you have to ask the creators to have enough courage to do the piece they want to do? They have to tell certain people "### off" or have to listen to their criticisms and make a product that pleases them? What is gained by paying attention to these small groups that usually only use ridiculous arguments?
    And here goes my answer:

    Any product or service must be designed to address the needs or desires of a target group/audience.
    You cannot hope to turn a profit by hauling ice cubes to Alberta, Canada, or by selling zippo hand warmers to Miamians, or by carrying coal to Newcastle.

    If the authors of any work of content aim to make their product so that it will satisfy the Bechtel test -or any other SJW test- no matter how it affects the plausibility of the characters or the the suspension of disbelief among the people who are expected to -hopefully- "consume" it, then you can expect that they (the consumers) will be displeased.

    Acrimony should be expected in those cases of people who are going to watch the movie anyway, because they are "hooked" on a media franchise:
    They will end up feeling betrayed by the outcome or, even worse, feel that their favorite franchise has been betrayed by those who were supposed to carry it onward.

    Disney people (and any and all categories of business people for all that matters), need to decide if they are in business to make profit, or if the main motivation that should drive them is the expectation of praise for the social justice virtue they are signalling.

    One should know -and note- that in business schools of today, one of the classes that are being taught is "Corporate Ethics" AKA "Corporate Social Responsibility".
    In practice, the department of a for-profit organization that will have such things within their purview is none other than the Public Relations office of said organization, yet PR is part of strategic marketing.

    The failures we are witnessing (Star Wars, Star Trek, Gillette "toxic masculinity" add) have resulted from appointing in PR positions people who never learned how to do nuances, who don't really understand the mandate of marketing, yet they attained the greatest attention -and praise- of their academic careers by signalling their social justice virtue.
    Now they are simply attempting to recreate the one-and-only triumph of their lives.
    It's a shame they are doing it with other people's money.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    So, you have to congratulate the fans for their victory, or you have to ask the creators to have enough courage to do the piece they want to do? They have to tell certain people "### off" or have to listen to their criticisms and make a product that pleases them? What is gained by paying attention to these small groups that usually only use ridiculous arguments?
    The Rise of Skywalker is what happens when writers try to actually "target" the fans. They often suck at it. This is why for most writes/directs, it's better to stick to homages rather than try to cater to certain demographics. It just comes off too obvious and forced.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    "The first big victory of the fans"? Somebody doesn't seem to be watching movies or TV series.
    What about the Furturama reboot, the movie Serenity, or the entire Star Trek franchise after the original series? And those are just a few examples off the top of my head, from similar genres.
    What was wrong with the Star Trek franchise exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    The failures we are witnessing (Star Wars, Star Trek, Gillette "toxic masculinity" add) have resulted from appointing in PR positions people who never learned how to do nuances, who don't really understand the mandate of marketing, yet they attained the greatest attention -and praise- of their academic careers by signalling their social justice virtue.
    Now they are simply attempting to recreate the one-and-only triumph of their lives.
    It's a shame they are doing it with other people's money.
    This line of thought is just detached from reality and only makes sense when you have a biased sample. Bad and Good movies existed today and yesterday. They will exist tomorrow. The "Bad" movies of today have little to do with an overinjection of "social justice virtue". Social justice has been present in movies for decades and has produced both excellent and awful movies. The widely acclaimed and extremely SJW Star Trek series compared to the modern action-oriented Star Trek films for example. I happen to greatly enjoy both. The same people who would bemoan Frozen 2 and its brand of SJW-ism, have probably never seen Pocahontas. It's curious that these SJW critics never seem to want to criticize their childhood, that was so precious, so perfect, so flawless. It's always all about the new movies that are ruined by women and transvestites.

    Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, people who scan and grade films for on the basis of their SJW-ness do not have a single ounce of credibility or appreciation for film. They are akin to Marxists who review everything with a Marxist analytical lens. It's boring, stupid, and lazy. Not to mention that those people are typically the most egregious hypocrites. There are a ton of bad movies that have nothing to do with SJWs, just as there are plenty of super SJW movies. And if you all want examples, here are some mediocre movies that fit that lens.

    Venom, Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom, Gemini Man, DC Universe (with the exception of SJW Wonder Woman), and you get the idea. On the other hand, Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Us, and one of my personal favorites, Sorry to Bother You. Tons of other movies and shows I haven't mentioned. Getting real tired of this boring and uncreative SJW angle on movies, it's an echo chamber of parrots.

  10. #10
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Making anything requires the commitment of both resources and the effort to transform them into the final product.
    The contribution of said resources and effort is agreed upon the promise that the product will be good.
    The product is appraised as good or bad on the basis of whether it accomplishes the declared purpose for which it was made.
    If someone inject their own objectives into the making of a product whose making committed resources on ultimately false promises then the product becomes corrupt.

    People go to the movies to see a story.
    That is the story of people, real or fictional.
    We expect to see them being placed into situations that require difficult decisions.
    We expect to see how they will manage their internal conflicts.
    Real people make mistakes and have second thoughts and fictional people are plausible when they act like real life characters.

    The stories we enjoy the most are of those people who make choices we only wish we had the strength of character to emulate, had we been in their shoes.
    If the audience figure out that the purpose of the film is to propagandize a belief system, you can expect they will be put off by it.
    And yet they may still like the story if the characters are plausible and the dilemmas that are thrusted upon them force them to challenge their prior convictions, rethink their strategies and -through pain, effort and sacrifice- evolve into a fitter-for-the-task version of themselves.

    An SJW agenda can't sour this milk in and of itself.
    The proverbial milk goes bad only when the story fails to present us realistic characters in realistic situations and instead is pushing the narrative of awesomeness by birthright.

  11. #11
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Making anything requires the commitment of both resources and the effort to transform them into the final product.
    The contribution of said resources and effort is agreed upon the promise that the product will be good.
    The product is appraised as good or bad on the basis of whether it accomplishes the declared purpose for which it was made.
    If someone inject their own objectives into the making of a product whose making committed resources on ultimately false promises then the product becomes corrupt.

    People go to the movies to see a story.
    That is the story of people, real or fictional.
    We expect to see them being placed into situations that require difficult decisions.
    We expect to see how they will manage their internal conflicts.
    Real people make mistakes and have second thoughts and fictional people are plausible when they act like real life characters.

    The stories we enjoy the most are of those people who make choices we only wish we had the strength of character to emulate, had we been in their shoes.
    If the audience figure out that the purpose of the film is to propagandize a belief system, you can expect they will be put off by it.
    And yet they may still like the story if the characters are plausible and the dilemmas that are thrusted upon them force them to challenge their prior convictions, rethink their strategies and -through pain, effort and sacrifice- evolve into a fitter-for-the-task version of themselves.

    An SJW agenda can't sour this milk in and of itself.
    The proverbial milk goes bad only when the story fails to present us realistic characters in realistic situations and instead is pushing the narrative of awesomeness by birthright.

  12. #12

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    It would be great if you had something to say.
    Oh, it seems I said enough. Anyway, don't forget to clean your room.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  13. #13

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    Making anything requires the commitment of both resources and the effort to transform them into the final product.
    The contribution of said resources and effort is agreed upon the promise that the product will be good.
    The product is appraised as good or bad on the basis of whether it accomplishes the declared purpose for which it was made.
    If someone inject their own objectives into the making of a product whose making committed resources on ultimately false promises then the product becomes corrupt.
    No, it doesn't. It's also irrelevant. What actually matters is the quality of the final product.

    People go to the movies to see a story.
    That is the story of people, real or fictional.
    We expect to see them being placed into situations that require difficult decisions.
    We expect to see how they will manage their internal conflicts.
    Real people make mistakes and have second thoughts and fictional people are plausible when they act like real life characters.
    This is an over-generalization. People go to film for a variety of reasons. For the record, I doubt anybody went to the latest two Godzilla movies to find out what happened to the human characters. They went because Godzilla. The trailers reflect this. The reviews reflect this. And the actual movie reflects this. Another good example is Pacific Rim, whereas Pentecost was a pleasant surprise, the highlights of the movie were the special effects and comedic relief.

    The stories we enjoy the most are of those people who make choices we only wish we had the strength of character to emulate, had we been in their shoes.
    If the audience figure out that the purpose of the film is to propagandize a belief system, you can expect they will be put off by it.
    And yet they may still like the story if the characters are plausible and the dilemmas that are thrusted upon them force them to challenge their prior convictions, rethink their strategies and -through pain, effort and sacrifice- evolve into a fitter-for-the-task version of themselves.
    The purpose of film is whatever it needs to be. Whereas Starship Troopers was panned on release by critics as ridiculous propaganda that glorified war, contemporary critics view it as an excellent piece of satire that criticizes authoritarianism and militarism by subtly weaving them into the story and " Yeah America!" style dialogue. Or perhaps not so subtly. On the other hand while Wonder Woman is simply an awesome comic book adaptation, where the only real SJW pandering is in the form of strong female lead, some people prefer to believe that it is part of SJW propaganda to encourage Female Supremacy.

    To put it in another way, if your conclusion is that some or many films are ruined by an SJW culture virus that seeks to inject an agenda wherever possible, then your ability to analyze films sucks.

    An SJW agenda can't sour this milk in and of itself.
    The proverbial milk goes bad only when the story fails to present us realistic characters in realistic situations and instead is pushing the narrative of awesomeness by birthright.
    Some people try to find SJW agenda whenever possible. Or if a movie doesn't live up to their expectations, their immediate reaction is to blame SJWs. Sorry, but I find this lazy and inaccurate. I also find it hilarious that SJWs are to blame for the Rise of Skywalker considering J.J. Abrams is the director who decided that Star Trek films should be known for lens flare and explosions rather than its political and thought-provoking narratives. I guess J.J. Abrams was converted circa 2015.

  14. #14
    Cookiegod's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Lol. On one hand I am glad you actually listened to what I said for once ("It's not politics per se that is bad - it's how it's implemented."), yet at the same time I wonder what happened to the guys who told us that one cannot dislike Star Wars and not be a "right-wing incel".

    I also like how fast (presumably not even having watched the movie) you're willing to accept that JJA bent over for the fans in this movie, rather than considering that he might be sucking at endings generally, or that the way the first two movies were set up, this really didn't leave the third one much choice to do anything but basically start over (given that there weren't many plotthreads left from the second one to pursue). It's also fascinating that on one hand you are confident that they were "catering to certain demographics" and shouldn't have done it, and fail to realise that this is exactly what they did with the first two.
    If you can't beat'em, join them

  15. #15

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Lol. On one hand I am glad you actually listened to what I said for once ("It's not politics per se that is bad - it's how it's implemented."), yet at the same time I wonder what happened to the guys who told us that one cannot dislike Star Wars and not be a "right-wing incel".
    Why don't you show us where I said that?

    I also like how fast (presumably not even having watched the movie) you're willing to accept that JJA bent over for the fans in this movie, rather than considering that he might be sucking at endings generally, or that the way the first two movies were set up, this really didn't leave the third one much choice to do anything but basically start over (given that there weren't many plotthreads left from the second one to pursue). It's also fascinating that on one hand you are confident that they were "catering to certain demographics" and shouldn't have done it, and fail to realise that this is exactly what they did with the first two.
    Why don't you actually say something instead of talking about how fascinating my thoughts are. I know they are, that's why they elicit replies.

  16. #16
    Cookiegod's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Why don't you show us where I said that?
    That brain hemorrhage thread. It was actually mishkin who pushed this the most brazenly, but you did too iirc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Why don't you actually say something instead of talking about how fascinating my thoughts are. I know they are, that's why they elicit replies.
    My fascination is due to the inherent contradictions. Me pointing them out is me saying something.

    What I find intriguing is this perception that JJA would have had that genius creative vision if he'd not been pandering to some "angry fans". Which... Uhm. What on earth makes any of you think that?!

    And what were the first two movies if not pandering to demographics?!

    What is also both bizarre that you (this time singular: sukiyama/love mountain) and me actually do agree on some of the stuff.

    I loved Starship Troopers for similar reasons why you did, and maybe others too. I absolutely love how the movie didn't simply adapt Heinlein's novel but make a scathing satire out of it. Because Heinlein was serious about it. The movie on the other hand obviously was not. It also went to great efforts to look like a B-movie. On purpose. Which was also a reason why it was panned by critics.

    I absolutely have nothing against politics in movies, and I don't even care which politics. What matters is that the movie tries to say something, that some thought went into it.

    One of my absolute faves is Silence of the lambs, and it's nothing if not feminist. The female protagonist does nothing if not win EVERY SINGLE confrontation with men. Her surroundings are almost entirely male and not one of them treats her well, including the supposed mentor figure Jack, who's merely using her. The victim in the well too has a winning moment when she fights back.

    Today however it is different. You get an Afro-American, a gay Hispanic, a strong woman because of pandering to demographics. NOTHING else.
    And what's especially sad is how fragile they perceive their female audiences to be, if they really think that Rey is the kind of role model one can be interested in.

    She can have no weaknesses either way, because that'd be seen as treason. She cannot be teached anything, because that'd be mansplaining. The antagonists can't have a single winning moment, because that too wouldn't work. This is why Rey is so unlikeable, this is why the antagonists are all just a bunch of weak, whiny slapstick morons, this is why all defeats have to happen before the movies, not during.

    Now, if JJA actually had ever had any creative, political deep thought, he wouldn't have copy pasted the original trilogy and thereby completely made it redundant. He could have explored a resistance slowly reconquering the world, have them become the bad guys committing crimes, etc. But no. No moral ambiguity, nothing.

    There is no political, social or other commentary in this new trilogy worth talking about. All the politics in these movies is simply fake pandering. Nothing more. That's why the movies suffer from it.

    And this is where you and I can't agree and won't agree. Because I really cannot accept this crap as something brave. Because I'm not going to accept Disney as my moral overlord.

    Somehow, at 27 years, I already feel too old for this infantilised world.
    If you can't beat'em, join them

  17. #17

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Daily reminder that Heinlein's Starship Troopers is not fascist, despite whatever some illiterates might want to tell you. Not that I don't think that Verhoeven's movie "adaptation" isn't fun in its own way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    What was wrong with the Star Trek franchise exactly?
    The point wasn't that anything was wrong with it, but that the fans succeeded in getting it restarted after TOS. It was a huge victory for "the fans" several decades ago. And probably not the first one in media history either. Thus instantly proving the thread title wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    Oh, it seems I said enough. Anyway, don't forget to clean your room.
    Posting sarcastic one-liners is always a sure sign of maturity. And it contributes so much of value to a discussion

  18. #18

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Daily reminder that Heinlein's Starship Troopers is not fascist, despite whatever some illiterates might want to tell you. Not that I don't think that Verhoeven's movie "adaptation" isn't fun in its own way.
    Military social Darwinism.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Posting sarcastic one-liners is always a sure sign of maturity. And it contributes so much of value to a discussion
    What discussion? Nobody here is willing to debate you whether or not Baby Yoda is the harbringer of White Genocide. Or something equally mature.
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  20. #20

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    I'm still a bit puzzled about the logic behind the OP. First (in the other thread), mishkin claims that "the fans" are conspiracy theorists who think that critics are judging based on their world view, then he says that "the fans" were conspiring to make Disney adhere to their agenda.


    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Military social Darwinism.
    I wouldn't even go that far. As far as I can judge without having read most of it, it seems to be going in a kind of Libertarian direction.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gromovnik View Post
    What discussion? Nobody here is willing to debate you whether or not Baby Yoda is the harbringer of White Genocide. Or something equally mature.
    Tell me more about your inner dialogue.

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