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Thread: The first big victory of the "fans".

  1. #61

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    ok, what do you want me to tell you?
    I've already told you. Star Wars is more on the interactions of humans and aliens when you get down to the characters. Not whites and non-whites or men and women. I'll just sit here and wait for you to hiss like a hostile cat backed into a corner again.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  2. #62
    Cookiegod's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Not only don't I see what you were trying to contradict, I don't see any connection between your seemingly random lore sharing and anything anyone else talked about in this thread so far.
    .







    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    No one cares what Derc has to say.

  3. #63

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Uh huh. Be honest. You're just trying to score some weird "win".

  4. #64

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    There is some star wars content that explored some of that. But the movies never touch the subject- Cant say the movies were about that at all.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Uh huh. Be honest. You're just trying to score some weird "win".
    Tell me where I said anything either for or against e.g. this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Star Wars is more on the interactions of humans and aliens when you get down to the characters. Not whites and non-whites or men and women.
    Because all this talk about Calimari is the epitomy of weirdness.

  6. #66
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    This. The original trilogy was so good because it was Luke's bildungsroman. It showed him going from failure to failure while learning how to be a Jedi and develop his powers until finally completing his training when he refrained from killing his father. It was about the journey.
    Well yes as much as I love the original trilogy. Luke is whinny. The movies do a really poor job of explaining his training - who knew the one week course with Yoda was so effective? And in some sense his final acts were pointless unless having turned to the dark side he somehow going to hop in tie fighter and chase Wedge down and blow up the Falcon as well. I suppose you could argue he distracted DV from being on the moon.

    I'm not really going to argue much about the recent series but at least there was a palpable reason to off Palatine that impacted the larger battle.

    The new Star Wars was ruined by Kathleen Kennedy wanting to make a feminist movie with feminist values for a feminist audience. Several directors and actors got fired for reasons like (I will paraphrase here) "Rey does not need to learn anything. women are strong so she should be able to do everything better than Luke from the start" and "the movies do not need to tell a story, they need to convey how great Rey, and women in general, are".
    I think that could have been a perfectly good take. Just have her be more reckless flirting on the edge of falling into darkness for the first two moves having come into power without training or a sense of what being a Jedi or a Sith was. Possibly even intro should have seen her as not down trodden but more ruthless as a successful scavenger via force powers (just be better than but not actively using the force) and then saving Finn could for example have been more of a pivotal charter change one that grounded her on the light side in the long run.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #67

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    I think that could have been a perfectly good take. Just have her be more reckless flirting on the edge of falling into darkness for the first two moves having come into power without training or a sense of what being a Jedi or a Sith was. Possibly even intro should have seen her as not down trodden but more ruthless as a successful scavenger via force powers (just be better than but not actively using the force) and then saving Finn could for example have been more of a pivotal charter change one that grounded her on the light side in the long run.
    Meaning give her character traits and story arch that made her more like an actual character, with universal relatable human traits?

    Yep.

    look up on Kreia, or Bastilla to see what good female characters in Star Wars look like.

    A compelling character doesn't need to signal how feminist or morally virtuous or strong they are to be mildly interesting. There are tons interesting female lead characters in cinema, where the debate doesn't even arise for a reason.

    It comes down to storytelling, and Disney didn't knew how to tell a story in star wars, and the characters reflected that.

    Its that simple.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; January 13, 2020 at 11:35 AM.

  8. #68
    Cookiegod's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    I don't buy that bull.... about Kennedy being the source of all problems, nor do I think she did her decisions because of feminism.
    .







    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    No one cares what Derc has to say.

  9. #69

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Well yes as much as I love the original trilogy. Luke is whinny. The movies do a really poor job of explaining his training - who knew the one week course with Yoda was so effective? And in some sense his final acts were pointless unless having turned to the dark side he somehow going to hop in tie fighter and chase Wedge down and blow up the Falcon as well. I suppose you could argue he distracted DV from being on the moon.
    We don't know how long Luke's training was, the movies don't make it clear. It was clearly more than a day, and it could have been more than a month for all we know. It took the Falcon a while to get Lando's mining camp without hyperlight drive, and it was at the limits of the Falcon capabilities. Did it take a week, 2 weeks to reach Lando's mining colony? The movie doesn't say or make clear. It wasn't just a day, though. It surely took some time for the Empire to gather together a group of bounty hunters.

    As for Luke being whining, that was true in the first movie A New Hope episode 4, but it really wasn't true at the end of The Empire Strikes Back. Luke accepts without protest that he will be on his own when he leaves to rescue his friends. And he definitely shows more maturity in The Return of the Jedi.

    And I don't understand your complaints about Wedge, what are you specifically referring to?

    I think that could have been a perfectly good take. Just have her be more reckless flirting on the edge of falling into darkness for the first two moves having come into power without training or a sense of what being a Jedi or a Sith was. Possibly even intro should have seen her as not down trodden but more ruthless as a successful scavenger via force powers (just be better than but not actively using the force) and then saving Finn could for example have been more of a pivotal charter change one that grounded her on the light side in the long run.
    It is one of my objections is that Rey just didn't show the same character growth in the first 2 movies that you saw in Luke in episodes 4 and 5. I didn't see any growth in her character in the The Last Jedi as compared to the The Force Awakens. I did see some character growth in the last movie, the ending scene where she chooses to self identify with those who trained her, rather just pine for parents she barely knew, does indicate a growth of character. It is not just blood or genetics who makes you who you are, and regardless of whose daughter or granddaughter she was, that wasn't as important as who she chose to model herself after.

  10. #70
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    It took the Falcon a while to get Lando's mining camp without hyperlight drive, and it was at the limits of the Falcon capabilities
    No hyper drive faster than light sci fi thing and unless thay had cryo tubes you ain't getting to any system before you die. Face as soon as you think about the interconnected time gap you are looking at GOT teleporting and skill acquisition.

    And I don't understand your complaints about Wedge, what are you specifically referring to?
    That the events on the death star is sort of disconnected from the plot to blow up the death star. So Luke turns, Wedge Antilles was already about to blow up the thing. As I said the only marginal argument is Darth might have stayed on the planet and the attack on the base would have failed.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #71

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    No hyper drive faster than light sci fi thing and unless thay had cryo tubes you ain't getting to any system before you die. Face as soon as you think about the interconnected time gap you are looking at GOT teleporting and skill acquisition.
    The assumption is that hyperlight drive is the only faster than light drive system in thr Star Wars universe. Givdn how fast it is, it obviously would be the preferred method but perhaps they still have a slower, if still faster than light, drive even without even without hyperspace drive.

    Or the asteroid field they were in was in the solar system Lando's mining operation was in. In that case, it would would have been doable if long trip, with just a fast sublight drive which something like the Falcon surely has.


    In the movie, Han was looking for places they could go without hyperlight drive. If it took centuries or even decades to get to thr nearest planetary system, he wouldn't have bothered looking if that was the case, implying that they still had some form of faster than light drive, just a lot slower, more like Star Trek speed.


    And a finally possibiliy is that the stars were a lot closer than is the case around our solar system. In a globular cluster, stars can be mere light weeks apart, so youn could reach another star system after a few weeks.or month or 2 of traveling even at sublight. Keep in mind Star Wars is specifically said to be another galaxy, and the stars in that galaxy xould be much closer ours.


    That the events on the death star is sort of disconnected from the plot to blow up the death star. So Luke turns, Wedge Antilles was already about to blow up the thing. As I said the only marginal argument is Darth might have stayed on the planet and the attack on the base would have failed.
    If the emperor escape, he could just build another Death Star, as he did when hr first Death Star was destroyed. It is clear the death of thr emperor happened first, before rhe Death Star was destoyed. The loss the emperor and.the loss of leadership at a critical stage in the battl might have disorganized imperial forces, making them far less effective.

    Also, if Vader was still at the base Hans Solo's attack would have failed. Even after Hans got into the base, Vader wouls have snatched he blaster and bombs out of Solo's hand., ans just cut down the rebels with his light saber.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; January 14, 2020 at 04:19 PM. Reason: typos

  12. #72

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Neither the screenwriters nor the directors appear to have given the "science" of Star Wars any serious thought. Attempting to derive some kind of a coherent logic to the science from the films is, in my opinion, a waste of time. Especially when people can just change it all in the next movie.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    It's not the science part that's an issue but the changing it thing that is an issue. It's a big weakness of Star Wars compared to most successful franchises, no matter what it is. If the universe and its rules aren't set up properly and believable to the audience, they have no reason to buy into anything. E.g. my brain is now hardwired to think with Star Wars: I know you keep telling me this situation is very bad and there's no way out, but we both know you'll pull some solution out of your arse instead of trying to find a solution that works within the established rules.
    That would require some effort from the writers and we can't have that.

    It's the same issue as with the fake-politics. I know people here seem to think that one cannot criticise the implementation and/or the intents of the makers without criticising the message itself, but it is.

    There's zero love between a creator and his piece of art with this franchise, so they put zero effort into anything that's does not immediately create profit. For the same reason it's foolish to think they e.g. made that 2sec gay kiss out of "bravery" (also since it was conveniently made in a way so that it was cut out in all countries where this would actually have been brave).
    .







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  14. #74

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Agree, I think everyone knows that there's no science in Star Wars or in similar franchises. But even in such a fantasy world, you have to have internal consistency in order to maintain any semblance of quality. This is why even in a work where there's outlandish magic (like in Harry Potter or SW), it'd better be a magic system with internal rules. Otherwise, there's simply no story to tell.
    But first, you need authors who understand these things and care about stories and worldbuilding, as opposed to activists who just want to get a message across, or corporate panels who determine the biological characteristics of each "good guy" character in order to ensure "representation".

  15. #75

    Default Re: The first big victory of the "fans".

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    It's not the science part that's an issue but the changing it thing that is an issue. It's a big weakness of Star Wars compared to most successful franchises, no matter what it is. If the universe and its rules aren't set up properly and believable to the audience, they have no reason to buy into anything. E.g. my brain is now hardwired to think with Star Wars: I know you keep telling me this situation is very bad and there's no way out, but we both know you'll pull some solution out of your arse instead of trying to find a solution that works within the established rules.
    That would require some effort from the writers and we can't have that.

    It's the same issue as with the fake-politics. I know people here seem to think that one cannot criticise the implementation and/or the intents of the makers without criticising the message itself, but it is.

    There's zero love between a creator and his piece of art with this franchise, so they put zero effort into anything that's does not immediately create profit. For the same reason it's foolish to think they e.g. made that 2sec gay kiss out of "bravery" (also since it was conveniently made in a way so that it was cut out in all countries where this would actually have been brave).
    Yes. Narratives need to be plausible within the context of their own setting in order to be convincing. A failure of plausibility is part of what ruined the later series of Game of Thrones.

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