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Thread: LEON & CASTILLE

  1. #21

    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Thanks, j.a.luna - to be used when we get into this aspect of the game. IIRC, the capital of Castille in 095 (and maybe even 092) was also Burgos.
    Mmm Jurand if i dont wrong, in previous versions of sship the capital for castilians in game was León...That's why I was surprised that in version 0.9.7 it was now Burgos (which was also capital as I explained above)
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  2. #22
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    I checked with version 0.9.5 which I still have on my PC: the capital was indeed Léon.

  3. #23

    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Quote Originally Posted by kostic View Post
    I checked with version 0.9.5 which I still have on my PC: the capital was indeed Léon.
    ok perfect, thanks Kostic!, so I think it should be corrected in future patches and it should be the capital of Castilla y León again as it was in previous versions for the reasons described above and apart from having better infrastructures at the beginning of the game and being more prosperous than Burgos .
    And what Jurand and sship team say.
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  4. #24
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    ok perfect, thanks Kostic!, so I think it should be corrected in future patches and it should be the capital of Castilla y León again as it was in previous versions for the reasons described above and apart from having better infrastructures at the beginning of the game and being more prosperous than Burgos .
    And what Jurand and sship team say.
    Ok, it seems it was changed by Lifth for 096, since in 096 I've got Burgos. I don't remember why he's changed it. Me, I have no opinion where it should be in 1132.

  5. #25
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Ok, it seems it was changed by Lifth for 096, since in 096 I've got Burgos. I don't remember why he's changed it. Me, I have no opinion where it should be in 1132.
    Indeed, Burgos is the capital of Leon with SSHIP version 0.9.6

  6. #26

    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Quote Originally Posted by kostic View Post
    Indeed, Burgos is the capital of Leon with SSHIP version 0.9.6
    Oook, so sship team decide what to do and why Burgos is the capital of the joint kingdom of Castilla y León, I have already explained the reasons for León and Burgos and the castilian itinerant capital.
    My next proposition about these Iberian factions is to make a list of units and initial army composition to help Kostic and the team in reference to this matter.
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  7. #27

    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    My next proposition about these Iberian factions is to make a list of units and initial army composition to help Kostic and the team in reference to this matter.
    That sounds pretty major, but I'd like to see current work getting finished first, I see various people slowly contributing now and it's great, but If we would come to really get into it, I think a replacement of unit rosters is something that would be needed for many, if not most factions, not just the Spanish. Personally, when I have an idea for improvement I just write it down, I've even done it for the spanish roosters, pretty much like your own suggestions (Peones with axes and maces for secondary wp, perhaps a units of them as slingers, sirvientes as the household footmen troops, caballeros hidalgos charging with lances and villanos with spear+javs, urban militias with better equipment than peones but only for Minor cities and above, the almogávares, mudéjares mercenaries, frankish mercenaries, small companies of norse and british mercenaries disembarking the northern coast depicted as low availability mercs, the orders of calatrava, montesa, santiago, etc.). But I think it'd be better to wait because that way we could focus on a big discussion with everybody participating, could try now, but I think everybody it's kind of busy developing and fixing, but maybe it's just my perception.
    Last edited by removeduser_28376423423; November 09, 2020 at 04:07 PM.

  8. #28

    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindathar View Post
    That sounds pretty major, but I'd like to see current work getting finished first, I see various people slowly contributing now and it's great, but If we would come to really get into it, I think a replacement of unit rosters is something that would be needed for many, if not most factions, not just the Spanish. Personally, when I have an idea for improvement I just write it down, I've even done it for the spanish roosters, pretty much like your own suggestions (Peones with axes and maces for secondary wp, perhaps a units of them as slingers, sirvientes as the household footmen troops, caballeros hidalgos charging with lances and villanos with spear+javs, urban militias with better equipment than peones but only for Minor cities and above, the almogávares, mudéjares mercenaries, frankish mercenaries, small companies of norse and british mercenaries disembarking the northern coast depicted as low availability mercs, the orders of calatrava, montesa, santiago, etc.). But I think it'd be better to wait because that way we could focus on a big discussion with everybody participating, could try now, but I think everybody it's kind of busy developing and fixing, but maybe it's just my perception.
    Yes mate, so I will wait for the sship team, Jurand and Kostic to request me to help in the Iberian units roster.
    While I will continue to investigate more in this matter to make the game as historical as possible and that we have a great variety of units with different fighting styles
    (as it was).
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  9. #29

    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    I will continue to investigate more in this matter to make the game as historical as possible and that we have a great variety of units with different fighting styles
    (as it was).
    Hey, I was looking for info. On the almogávares and found some served as horsemen in castille (It's in Las Siete Partidas de Alfonso X), but don't know if they fought like that, do you know, by any chance?

  10. #30

    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindathar View Post
    Hey, I was looking for info. On the almogávares and found some served as horsemen in castille (It's in Las Siete Partidas de Alfonso X), but don't know if they fought like that, do you know, by any chance?
    Generally they were mainly infantry troops, something like this image...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here some useful information about characteristics of the almogávares and their ranges.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    . They were characterized by being shock troops of infantry that fought on foot, with weapons and light baggage, generally with a short spear (azconas), described as a sharp spike or a simple stick with an iron spike, two spears that they threw with such force that they pierced enemy shields, a long knife (called a coltell) and sometimes a small round shield as the only defense.
    Over time they also occasionally added a head covering (capells de rets) and chain mail .Their main weapon was the cutlass, a kind of short sword that they carried hanging from a strap. They wore a long beard and dressed poorly, only a short nightgown (both in summer and winter), they wore a thick belt made of leather, leather tights tight on the legs and they wore leather sandle .In a satchel they carried provisions, mainly bread, for 2 or 3 days, although due to their tradition of launching raids into enemy territory they were used to so survive by eating herbs for the same period of time. They also always carried a good fire stone (flint), as well as tinder, with which they used to strike their weapons before going into battle, so These threw huge sparks, which together with their terrible screams, terrified their enemies. Of great courage and fierceness, those coming from the Crown of Aragon entered into combat shouting "Desperta Ferro!", "San Jorge!" and «Aragon! Aragon! ”. FOR THIS THEY SHOULD HAVE THE ATRRIBUTE SCARY ENEMY TROOPS

    This is the famous description of an almogávar made by Bernat Desclot in his chronicle called Libro del Rey Pedro de Aragón and his past predecessors:

    "These people who are called Almogávares only live for the profession of arms. They do not live in cities or towns, but in mountains and forests, and they war every day against the Saracens: and they penetrate into Saracen land for a day or two, plundering and taking Saracens captive; and they live on that. And they endure very harsh conditions of existence, which others could not bear. How well they will spend two days without eating if necessary, they will eat herbs from the fields without problem. And the leaders who guide them know the country and the roads. And they only wear a gown or a shirt, be it summer or winter, and on their legs they wear leather tights and on their feet leather sandals. And they bring a good knife and a good strap and a link on the belt. And each one brings a good spear and two darts, as well as a leather bag on their back, where they carry their food. And they are very strong and very fast, to flee and to pursue; and they are Catalans and Aragonese and Serrano."
    Bernat Desclot, Libre del rei in Pere e dels seus antecessors passats, ch. LXXIX.


    However, it must be taken into account that these descriptions are not exhaustive and that the description of the Almogávars, both in clothing, as weapons and even way of life, differed to a greater or lesser degree according to their geographical location and time. Thus, the previously made description of the Almogávares, in which they are related as people who lived not in towns, but in areas of difficult access such as forests and mountains, as well as the description of their weapons, only refer to the Almogávares of the designated time, and probably of the previous centuries. The last almogávares, those who between the second half of the 15th century and the 16th century had their scope of action on the Granada border, were residents of the towns present there, well-versed in the terrain, who made riots against Granada's territory.

    Its basic characteristics were permanent dedication to war, not exactly as a profession, but as a way of life, perfectly adapted to the conditions of the border with Saracen peoples, remuneration, based on looting and the sale or rescue of prisoners, frugality and resistance to fatigue; light weapons and hierarchical organization.

    Their mere appearance makes them invincible and with their own bodies they confirm the mutilations of the Hydra. Of course, neither these nor the deprivation of limbs contains their thrust, but if you cut one hand they fight with the one they have left, if you cut them both they fight with their feet, not feeling the lack of limbs, but only not being able to use his dexterity, (...). To such an extent they do not give any value when dying in combat and leaving the clash of arms unscathed that many times they even consider this fate as an outrage to their impetuous fury, without anything being enough to stop them ...
    Theodulus Monachus


    The Almogávares were considered one of the best infantry of their time. At a time when the cavalry was the favorite weapon of the armies and where the model of the chivalric ideal was the mythical one to follow, the Almogávares used the land to In their favor, they fought at night, they were always on their feet and did not wear armor, which gave them great mobility. Ramon Llull gave them as much importance as the crossbowmen and the knights in heavy armor, and in his view, the only way to effectively fight Islam and recover the Holy Land was to start the war on the Hispanic border and after defeating the Moors of Al-Andalus, moving to North Africa and progressively advancing until reaching the Levant, considering the Almogávares as a key piece in their plan. In the year in which he wrote his chronicle (1315) the Almogávares were at the height of their fame, and had achieved renown throughout the Mediterranean for their deeds in Tunisia, Sicily and in the Great Almogávar Company.

    The Almogávares used to fight in autonomous and small groups, of five to fifteen men, when they carried out border incursions, since they counted on surprise. In times of open warfare, the groups grew more numerous and we found mentions of twenty or thirty companions per group. Also, very rarely, some Almogávares participated in maritime privateering operations against the Grenadians.


    It should also be noted that they were not exactly an army, but they formed a very hard lifestyle, and they did not usually have any trade: they took everything from raids, so they were a great nuisance in peacetime for any leader. The primary occupation of these groups was to carry out small forays into enemy land with the aim of taking cattle and captives and then selling them. In times of war, these activities were encouraged by local kings and nobles, who renounced the royal fifth on the loot obtained.

    They were born out of border violence between the Islamic and Christian worlds, and indeed were often the cause of border tensions. The border with the Saracens, unattractive to people who wanted a quiet working life, was a refuge for adventurers, for people who had a taste for risky life and who lived by blows and looting on enemy land. During wars they put themselves in the service of the army, most of the time without pay, but with the right to booty and to be fed.

    TACTICS
    Their mission was to recognize the terrain where the army was advancing, positioning themselves in the vanguard and flanks, harassing the enemy, attacking their garrisons by surprise, and intercepting their convoys. They preferred to fight in an open order, although if they were in trouble they could form a compact mass to repel the repetitive charges of the cavalry, as happened in front of the Moors in Alcoll.

    The almogávares acted as pawns and could be servants, acting in collaboration with the cavalry, but unlike other medieval infantry troops, they did not require the support of horsemen, they always preserved their autonomy and were a permanent militia, because their modus vivendi was doing algaras or raids in border territory. In the mercenary companies, apart from the almogávares or scutiferoi, there were units of «knights, infantrymen, crossbowmen, scudars, horsemen to the genet and the men who looked after the armament of the galleys ”, each with a specific mission and which had to be coordinated on the battlefield.

    For the latter, they always went with light weapons, to move swiftly during riots that could easily last 2 or 3 days before even reaching villages with desirable loot. For the same reason, their long marches were proof of his endurance, speed and frugality. Also because of their tactics, the Almogávares had that simple hierarchical structure with common soldiers, officers –almocadenes– and leaders –adalides–.

    In Europe at that time the iron-clad heavy cavalry was the dominant striking force, so their tactics were an innovation; The Almogávares were uncomfortable riding on horseback, they always fought on foot. The first thing they did was throw their spears and spears at the knights, piercing their armor and shields with their powerful shots from a distance, but above all wounding death. to the horses. They also entered in full enemy charge and cut the hocks of the animals with their knives, or impaled them with their azcons until they burst. In hand-to-hand combat they did not hesitate to use their maces or short swords to gut the horses. When the mounts collapsed in agony and trapped their riders, a very close hand-to-hand combat ensued in which the azcona –if she still served– it was useless and they pounced on the knights with their coltel to kill them


    Here I leave you and the sship team a great summary about the Almogávares, their clothing, their war tactics and weapons.


    -Unit Availability:
    At the beginning of the game they should be available for the Aragon faction and how mercenaries in Aragonese lands(Zaragoza, Barcelona, Pamplona, Valencia) and perhaps some Castilian lands such as Toledo or Burgos with low availability(fewer troops) About 1180-1200 increase availability in same lands...,
    About s. XIV available in greek lands(Neopatria , duchy of Atenas), Sicily and south Italy, and finally mid s.XIV- S.XV all Iberia.

    -recruitable in low buildings( archery ,for be a javelin unit, and castle core building) and maybe in local guard for cities( but no have police functions) for aragoneses and as mercenaries at the beginning of the game for the rest.( lands described above)

    REMOVE CATALAN UNIT, is the same unit that almogavar and no historical.(one more free slot)

    -Attributes And Stats:
    They are very resistant troops with great morale and that shake the enemy(scary near enemy troops) with medium maintenance but very high cost for their purchase as valuable troops. (Mercenaries and local troops, quality excepcional or something similar)
    Also can be hidden anywhere and effective against cavalry(they first kill their enemy horses and after the knight)
    Most fought on foot (mountainous assault and surprise troops), only their captains and military leaders were on horseback.
    Famous for their javelins (azcones) and their large knife as a secondary weapon (coltell).

    -Attack for javelins similar to the rest of javeliners in the game but high secondary melee attack ( great knife coltell), effective against cavalry due to They were specialists in killing knights mixed in battle and cutting the necks of horses with their big knives to dismount the rider and stab them
    -Defense 0 or little armour( only 3 upgrades, nothing, leather and chain mail), little shield and very high defensive ability (troops hardened in continuous battles and skilled in combat).

    -Size. As a excepcional unit but very high price each man should be worth his high price paid to recruit them and his maintenance "medium-high" pretending that he would be given a good loot every time they go into action ... the size would range between 100-120 units in large size, not reaching have 150 as the militia but not 80 as very special units.

    Leather wardrobe and somewhat ragged mixed fur (like the numerous images I have posted)
    I think that to incorporate this unit into the game I have resolved several doubts about them.
    I hope to solve the doubts about these famous Iberian troops.
    Last edited by j.a.luna; November 11, 2020 at 01:23 AM. Reason: Images,quality, size,attributes and stats for almogávares
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  11. #31

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    A little suggestion sship team, i love see in the campaign map unique styles or unique cultures models in the strat unit models, Kostic mod add a lot of this with differences in the clothes and uniforms of generals, princesses, diplomats ... of different cultures such as Muslims, Russians, Europeans ... Also i love see unique descriptions for this strat models as " Imperial relative" "Papal legate" "Roman Pronoia" " Cuman warlord or chieftain".... but i think that can be add more names, not only simply "Lord", this word can be more for english nobles

    -For castilians can be " Castilian Seńor" or "Castilian Conde", Conde is similar to Comes and Seńor is a Lord. Same for the King, "Castilian Rey" if you want.
    -For Portuguese can be "Portuguese Senhor"
    -For Aragon can be " Aragonese Barón"
    -For Nogvorod and Kievan Rus can be " Kievan Boyar", you know boyars were russians nobles.
    -For Muslims in general can be "Moor Emir" "Selyuk Bey" , you know that Emir were gobernants

    For the rest of factions maybe you can have better names and originals, maybe for scandinavian can be called "Norwegian or Danish Jarl", and the king as " Norwegian Kong"


    For the settlements also can be made,not all faction name in latin as it currently appears, for example " Castilian Town" "Imperial Fortress" "Roman Huge city".

    i think that all this little things help for the inmersion of the game.




    *What I don't know is because there are 2 types of names for some generals of some factions and what is it due to ... maybe their rank or some ancillary? Fo example i saw that at he beginning of the game a roman general in Nicea is called "Roman Strategos" and he has the ancillarie of Megas Domestikos so he is the supreme chief of the roman army,but the rest romans generals are called roman pronoia, aslo for cumans that i saw cuman chieftain and cuman warlord, for europeans i saw english noble and english lord.... maybe is that some generals are family member and others no?

    But if is possible add this "tittles names" in the campaign map to generals it would be amazing for the gameplay and inmersion!!!similar to what happens with the ecumenical patriarch of constantinople and perhaps if what I proposed of the Great Caliph of Baghdad is done ... If you put the high office of marshall or chief of the army to a Castilian general, he could be called from a simple "Castilian Conde" to "Castilian Duque". That would be great.
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  12. #32

    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Guys quick question, how does one get the crown of iberia when the requirements are a cathedral in the historical capital which is toledo but toledo is a fortress and isn't allowed access to the cathedral building chain?

    Does one need to convert it into a city or would building a masons guild and getting a church as gift allow you to upgrade to a cathedral while still keeping the settlement a fortress/citadel?

  13. #33
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Quote Originally Posted by Konstantinos XII Rhomaios View Post
    Guys quick question, how does one get the crown of iberia when the requirements are a cathedral in the historical capital which is toledo but toledo is a fortress and isn't allowed access to the cathedral building chain?

    Does one need to convert it into a city or would building a masons guild and getting a church as gift allow you to upgrade to a cathedral while still keeping the settlement a fortress/citadel?
    Yeah, this is one of the factions I need to improve the place of coronation in 098. I need to do it for Roskilde, Bergen, Sharukan, Toledo. For the moment, I think the only way to get the crown is to convert Toledo to a city. I don't think you'd be able to upgrade a church after you'd get one from the masons' guild.

  14. #34

    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Seeing the title of the Crown of Spain will be "Imperator totius Hispaniae", why not simply change the place of coronation to León? And be done with the issue. As already mentioned by j.a.luna, Alfonso VII (the one which historically used said latin title) was crowned in the cathedral of León, also considering the previous argument to make León the Castillian capital city again.

  15. #35

    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindathar View Post
    Seeing the title of the Crown of Spain will be "Imperator totius Hispaniae", why not simply change the place of coronation to León? And be done with the issue. As already mentioned by j.a.luna, Alfonso VII (the one which historically used said latin title) was crowned in the cathedral of León, also considering the previous argument to make León the Castillian capital city again.
    Yes, i think that is a good idea in Leon and their cathedral.
    Toledo should stay as a fortress because is a strategic settlement in the game in all Iberia.
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  16. #36
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    I start redoing the Almughavars and I ask myself a question: shouldn't this unit be a mercenary unit ?

  17. #37

    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Quote Originally Posted by kostic View Post
    I start redoing the Almughavars and I ask myself a question: shouldn't this unit be a mercenary unit ?
    It is a good new Kostic! Almughavars were a pretty iberian famous troops in middle ages...
    In my opinion BOTH, and digging deeper into the subject, I believe that the Almogavars should be recruited as mercenaries in the Christian areas of Iberia(at the beginning of the game) and as an AOR unit in Aragonese areas, especially recruited in archery/local guard(such as the javalinmen or lusitanos javelinmen) but also recruited to a lesser extent in Castilian areas and Portuguese.
    Keep in mind that these troops were mostly used by the kingdom of Aragon and became more famous in the 14th century as mercenaries hired by the Byzantines (the famous Catalan company) than after the murder of their boss Roger de Flor by Byzantine hands, these took revenge and devastated the Greek lands settling in Neopatria and the Duchy of Athens.


    You have a lot of information about almughavars, their weapons, uniforms, lifestyle...in my previous posts
    Last edited by j.a.luna; January 16, 2022 at 04:30 PM.
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  18. #38
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Ok thank you. For the moment I will work on 4 textures, that of the Aragonese, that of the Castilians/Leon, that of the Portuguese and that of the rebels.
    For each of these factions, there are three levels of armor.
    Maybe I'll make a texture for Mercenary Almughavars later if we decide to add it to the game.
    I found your illustrations of the unit and I hope to come up with something believable.


    Related question: how could I differentiate the jinetes from the caballeros villanos?

  19. #39

    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Quote Originally Posted by kostic View Post
    Ok thank you. For the moment I will work on 4 textures, that of the Aragonese, that of the Castilians/Leon, that of the Portuguese and that of the rebels.
    For each of these factions, there are three levels of armor.
    Maybe I'll make a texture for Mercenary Almughavars later if we decide to add it to the game.
    I found your illustrations of the unit and I hope to come up with something believable.


    Related question: how could I differentiate the jinetes from the caballeros villanos?
    Ok kostic but you can solve this dilemma using as AOR unit in Christian Iberian lands, as mercenary you can use the same model.

    About caballeros villanos i give you a interestant information here, only translate it:
    http://ciudaddelastresculturastoledo...tilla.html?m=1

    https://hidalgosenlahistoria.blogspo...na_14.html?m=1

    -This unit were a feudal cavalry but they were not nobles, only "commoners" with a horse and a good equipment deployed in borderlands

    JINETES unit are a "Generic unit" for the same unit and style, maybe you can merge the 2 units of "Granadine jinetes" and "jinetes" in only one with a combination of muslim/christian clothes similar to Andalusian style or mozárabes, also with light cavalry style and javelins ( in other previous posts you have some images)
    Jinetes also would be an AOR unit in ALL Iberia because muslims and iberians factions had the same fight style, this unit also would be called "IBERIAN JINETES" or simply jinetes. And you would have another free slot for make new units as for example make a new unit called "Infanzones" that were lesser nobles in Iberia, a foot unit with swords, axes, little maces with adarga shields and kettle shields and nasal/low quality helmet for represent lesser nobles with low stats ( minor than dismounted knights).
    Another option is make more AOR Andalusian units ( similar case as prussian/armenian units) as Andalusian militia with swords and crosbows in south Iberia cities.
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  20. #40
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: LEON & CASTILLE

    Interesting. I notice that these, as well as the hidalgos (and of course the jinetes) are javelin throwers before the melee. Is this a good choice of the SSHIP mod in your opinion?

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