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Thread: PORTUGAL

  1. #1
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default PORTUGAL

    I. General information

    This thread is meant to gather all information about the faction and to conduct discussions on the faction related issues.
    The entries should be developed by both the SSHIP team and the interested players.

    The Portuguese historical evolution doesn't fit very much into the Medieval 2 engine. Having 2-3 provinces doesn't make a faction viable. Thus in this case we need to make the gameplay more relevant and to make an incursion in the alternative history - what would happen if Portugal would prevail in the Iberian Peninsula.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 23, 2021 at 06:33 AM.

  2. #2
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Portugal

    II. Strategy & gameplay

    To be developed in due course. If you've played the game with this faction and have insights how to help fellow players, please write a proposal for this section.

    For version 097, have a look at the entries #32 in this thread.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 28, 2021 at 01:01 AM.

  3. #3
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Portugal

    Map features, resources, province names, settlement names, provincial titles - all to be found in this entry.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 22, 2021 at 02:16 AM.

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    Default [F] - Portugal

    IV. Faction specific features (Crown, Offices, Bloodline, Traits, Buildings)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elendil 03 View Post
    I've never come across Comitatus Portucalliae, why not stick with Portucalense?
    The Crown of Spain is discussed in this entry.

    The Offices are described in this thread.


    Denmark has access to some buildings that may be not available to every faction: University (highest level), Tourney Fields.
    (note: this might be important for getting certain traits).

    Portuguese Blood: not checked.

    Specific traits: not checked.

    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; August 13, 2020 at 11:56 AM.

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Portugal

    V. Starting position in 1132 (incl. settlements, armies, generals, traits, political situation)

    to be developed in due course

  6. #6
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Portugal

    VI. Units

    to be developed in due course

  7. #7
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Portugal

    VIII. Potential plans for changes

    I. Change of the name:
    Regnum portugal instead of Comitatus - because Portugal became a kingdom in 1139, and is "ugly and not historical" for the rest of the game.
    but
    King of Portugal in 1139. However, Portugal was recognized as Kingdom by Lèon in 1143 and by the Pope in 1179

    II. Evolution of the faction

    a.) Birth of the Kingdom
    In 1139, Count Alfonso I proclaimed himself King of Portugal and achieved the independence of the Kingdom of León, which it recognized in 1143.The Portuguese knights accepted Alfonso as king in 1143; in 1179, the pope recognized the independence of Portugal. In 1147, Portugal conquered the current capital, Lisbon.
    In 1179, Pope Alexander III, through the bull Manifestis Probatum, recognized Portugal as an independent country and as a vassal of the Christian church.

    b) Reconquista
    Alfonso I, helped by the Templars and other military orders, extended the limit of the new kingdom to the south of the Tagus River. His son Sancho I (1185-1211) encouraged the Christians to repopulate the reconquered area where self-governed municipalities were established. A prominent role was played by the Cistercian monks, whose repopulations promoted an increase in agricultural production. At the end of the 12th century, the Almohads, a Muslim dynasty in North Africa, temporarily halted the advance of the Christians towards the south, but after their defeat at the Battle of Navas de Tolosa (1212), the Reconquest continued.

    c) Great Power of Spain
    King Alfonso III (1248-1279) completed the expulsion of the Muslims from the Algarve and moved the capital from Coimbra to Lisbon. He also launched the government with the help of the Cortes (a representative assembly that included members of the nobility, clergy, and citizens) and increased the power of the monarchy at the expense of the Church. His son Dionisio el Liberal, promoted agriculture, founded the first university in the nation in Coimbra and was responsible for the development of the Portuguese Navy.

    d) African Expansion

    e) New World Expeditions
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 23, 2021 at 04:40 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Some "issue" about Portugal faction... Sship developers dont think that Portugal could be called Regnum portugal instead of comitatus? I say that because Portugal became a kingdom in 1139, and is "ugly and not historical" see the rest of the game this issue... I think that for a few years could be called regnum and not comitatus( 7 years being not historical or all the game being not historical)
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    Some "issue" about Portugal faction... Sship developers dont think that Portugal could be called Regnum portugal instead of comitatus? I say that because Portugal became a kingdom in 1139, and is "ugly and not historical" see the rest of the game this issue... I think that for a few years could be called regnum and not comitatus( 7 years being not historical or all the game being not historical)
    Alphonso Herinques proclaimed himself Prince of Portugal in 1128 AD. And yes, he also proclaimed himself King of Portugal in 1139. However, Portugal was recognized as Kingdom by Lèon in 1143 and by the Pope in 1179.
    So, in 1132 (when the mod starts) Portugal was still "officially" a County wich is translated by Comitatus in latin.
    I don't want to be harsh but we have more important work to do than this tbh..
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  10. #10

    Default Re: PORTUGAL

    I continue thinking that Portugal should be a Kingdom instead a Count or Comitatus... for the rest of the game is not correct for portuguese (only 7 years at the beggining of the game is a "Comitatus" and for the rest of the game is a Kingdom (1139-1143 aprox).

    -Birth of the Kingdom of Portugal
    In 806 the First County of Portugal was constituted, which lasted until 1071 with its capital in the city of Porto under the Vímara Pérez dynasty, as a fiefdom of the Kingdom of Galicia. Later, in 1093, the Burgundy dynasty succeeded in taking over the power of the Second County of Portugal, in this period under the influence of the Kingdom of León. In 1139, Count Alfonso I proclaimed himself King of Portugal and achieved the independence of the Kingdom of León, which it recognized in 1143.The Portuguese knights accepted Alfonso as king in 1143; in 1179, the pope recognized the independence of Portugal. In 1147, Portugal conquered the current capital, Lisbon.


    In 1179, Pope Alexander III, through the bull Manifestis Probatum, recognized Portugal as an independent country and as a vassal of the Christian church.


    -ABOUT PORTUGUESE CAPITAL

    *COIMBRA
    Coimbra is reborn and becomes the most important city south of the Duero, capital of a vast county governed by the Mozarabic Sisnando Davídiz. With the Condado Portucalense, Count Enrique and Queen Teresa made it their residence, and the first King of Portugal, Alfonso I of Portugal, would be born within its safe walls, who would name it the capital of the County, to the detriment of Guimarães. It was not until 1255 that Coimbra lost this privilege, when the Portuguese capital became Lisbon. In 1111, the first jurisdiction that recognized the laws of the city and the county was granted.6 The young Infante Alfonso Enríquez encouraged the construction of his seat, the financing of the Monastery of Santa Cruz (the most important Portuguese monastic institution at that time , founded in 1131 by Saint Teotonio), promoted the construction of the Old Cathedral, rebuilt the original Roman bridge, in 1132, recovered fountains, ovens, paths and stone pavements, and renewed the walls of the old city. In order to confirm and reinforce the power of the "concelho" (municipality), King Alfonso Enríquez granted a new jurisdiction to the city.


    The University of Coimbra was founded as Studium Generale in Lisbon in 1290 by King Dionysius I. The University was transferred to Coimbra in 1308, but in 1338 King Alfonso IV brought it back to Lisbon.

    *LISBOA
    A first attempt by the Portuguese to take the city failed in 1137. In 1147, as part of the Reconquest, a group of French, English, German, and Portuguese knights, led by Alfonso I of Portugal, besieged and conquered Lisbon, passing to Christian hands.


    The reconquest of Portugal and the reestablishment of Christianity is one of the most significant events in Lisbon's history; although it is known that there was a Mozarabic bishop in the city who was assassinated by the crusaders and that the population was praying to the Virgin when a plague attacked them. Arabic lost its official status and little by little it was no longer used in everyday life. The remaining Muslim population converted to Catholicism or were expelled, while the mosques were transformed into churches.


    Lisbon received its first charter in 1179 and became the capital of Portugal in 1255 due to its central location in the Portuguese territory.

    Alfonso I, helped by the Templars and other military orders, extended the limit of the new kingdom to the south of the Tagus River. His son Sancho I (1185-1211) encouraged the Christians to repopulate the reconquered area where self-governed municipalities were established. A prominent role was played by the Cistercian monks, whose repopulations promoted an increase in agricultural production. At the end of the 12th century, the Almohads, a Muslim dynasty in North Africa, temporarily halted the advance of the Christians towards the south, but after their defeat at the Battle of Navas de Tolosa (1212), the Reconquest continued.


    King Alfonso III (1248-1279) completed the expulsion of the Muslims from the Algarve and moved the capital from Coimbra to Lisbon. He also launched the government with the help of the Cortes (a representative assembly that included members of the nobility, clergy, and citizens) and increased the power of the monarchy at the expense of the Church. His son Dionisio el Liberal, promoted agriculture, founded the first university in the nation in Coimbra and was responsible for the development of the Portuguese Navy.


    -It is clear that at the beginning of the game for Portugal it is the city of Coimbra, and later it is logical and historical to move the Portuguese capital to Lisbon (as it was in 1255).
    Portugal kept its capital in Lisbon with numerous own administrative entities (Desembargo do Paço, Mesa da Consciência e Ordens, Casa de Supplicação and Casa do Civel, etc).
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  11. #11

    Default Re: PORTUGAL

    Guess we don't have enough Portugal nationals playing this mod to pump this page full of suggestions.

    So, after giving Portugal a good old sport try, I can say, gladly, that they aren't a carbon copy of Castille and Aragon. In fact, even these two factions have some differences, which is great, you could have gone the easy way with the Iberians but they tend to have enough differences between each other to make it feel like an actual different experience.

    And Portugal's experience is a VERY miserable one.

    The good thing about Portugal, they start with a Trebuchet. Used to be a mangonel, but now a Trebuchet. That's a big deal, specially if you plan on leeching off Christians, as you can take a settlement too quick for the pope to throw a fit, and you may actually need to do it. And that's about where the good ends.

    Portugal is stated to be short on professional troops. What this effectively means, is that they have a hell of a time recruiting any significant numbers of feudal levies early on. Don't worry, you can get great castles going in Portuguese and Spanish lands. Problem is, 1 - all Portuguese provinces have cities, therefore, can't be turned into castles, and 2 - all Spanish lands are right in the heartlands of Castille. That means, lest your castle is built in Portugal (impossible), Castille & Leon (unlikely), or Aragon (even more unlikely), it will, at the very best, produce you 5 Peasant Infantry (!!!), 1 Light Swordsman, the usual Feudal Knights, 1 Villano, and 1 Hidalgo. Maybe something from the Archery Range, but honestly, I don't remember, and I can't really be blamed for that.

    Maybe you can get something good out of towns instead, like you're some sort of quasi Republic? Sorta. You get Levy Javeliners. These guys, with all armor upgrades... are actually decent fighters. Plenty of javelins that can down knights if something else is holding them still, and are pretty good against infantry on melee, even as far as, dare I say, assault infantry to storm walls. Pool 2, pretty good replenishment. Problem is, they are completely gone from Town Guard onwards.

    Small Councils, or Landowner Guards, or however they are called right now. Hidalgos and Villanos. Can't really complain, you may not get Foot Feudals for wall assaults but you do have the Javelineers and, most importantly, a Trebuchet. I'm actually okay with that dispostion, it is a bit like Hungary's horse archers, but the Hidalgos are actually knights, and despite both not having much ammo, Javelins do much better against shielded and armored troops. You won't win by tiring them up like with Horse Archers, but you can work much faster, which tends to be good.

    So that's it, maybe all Iberians need a rework and review on their recruitment, but Portugal is currently so bad, you guys might as well just take the faction slot and replace them by rebels. Historically, they never got too big until the Renaissance, and although were quite relevant during the Reconquista, be on land or sea, that can't be represented very well in the mod, other than possibly giving unique Portuguese units to the other Iberians.

  12. #12

    Default Re: PORTUGAL

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post

    So that's it, maybe all Iberians need a rework and review on their recruitment, but Portugal is currently so bad, you guys might as well just take the faction slot and replace them by rebels. Historically, they never got too big until the Renaissance, and although were quite relevant during the Reconquista, be on land or sea, that can't be represented very well in the mod, other than possibly giving unique Portuguese units to the other Iberians.
    Yes... Same opinion about Portugal in current sship, iberian factions need a review and unit rework, also as you said Portugal did not have a important leadership until the renaissance, so maybe could be a "candidate" to make them rebels, as an independent kingdom like the kingdom of Navarre, and leave a free slot for another faction in the future.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: PORTUGAL

    Portugal dominated the seas and had the most advanced ships and firearms of the 14th and somewhat 15th centuries. By no means should they be removed, but instead fleshed out. And Portugal was the first Colonial Empire afterall.

    Portugal would later teach the English and the dutch to build similar ships to the Caravel design to brave open oceans and advanced sea navigation methods in the famous Naval Academy of Sagres which is nowadays just a museum. The Portguese Caravel was the predecessor of the mighty Galleon that we would later see.

    Portugal should be given a special focus on Firearm units and if I'm not mistaken, I believe it was the Portuguese as well that invented the breach loading for their cannons which gave them a massive edge over other powers. They were even able to stand up to the Ottomans and deliver them big defeats despite Portugal small size and man power.

  14. #14

    Default Re: PORTUGAL

    Problem is, there's no Americas or Sub-Saharian Africa in the mod. Portugal's colonial empire can't be represented, only it's European holdings, which is a whole 2 provinces.

    Is that an argument to remove them? No, because Scotland and Norway are roughly the same deal, never became empires of any sort, and still exist in the mod.

    Furthermore, I believe there's still far more pressing candidates to the chopping block. But Portugal, as it is right now... is not worth playing.

    Also, shifting all their focus to gunpowder warfare may sound like a good deal, but that's a good 200+ turns of absolute suffering in the low middle ages until we see anything. There should be something to make them at least interesting to play early on. The King is from Burgundy, right in the center of the Latin culture, maybe Portugal could get an early focus on knights at the price of terrible levy/low-tier recruitment?

  15. #15

    Default Re: PORTUGAL

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    Problem is, there's no Americas or Sub-Saharian Africa in the mod. Portugal's colonial empire can't be represented, only it's European holdings, which is a whole 2 provinces.

    Is that an argument to remove them? No, because Scotland and Norway are roughly the same deal, never became empires of any sort, and still exist in the mod.

    Furthermore, I believe there's still far more pressing candidates to the chopping block. But Portugal, as it is right now... is not worth playing.

    Also, shifting all their focus to gunpowder warfare may sound like a good deal, but that's a good 200+ turns of absolute suffering in the low middle ages until we see anything. There should be something to make them at least interesting to play early on. The King is from Burgundy, right in the center of the Latin culture, maybe Portugal could get an early focus on knights at the price of terrible levy/low-tier recruitment?
    I agree, but perhaps the devs could take a look at how Medieval 1212 AD for Attila did. They did a good job with it in my opinion.

  16. #16

    Default Re: PORTUGAL

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken2007 View Post
    I agree, but perhaps the devs could take a look at how Medieval 1212 AD for Attila did. They did a good job with it in my opinion.
    I don't think the issue is the lack of unique units, personally. Medieval 2's system of limited recruitment pools is something I actually like. The problem is that Portugal's current pools are straight up horrible, and the fact that that the two provinces that constitute the kingdom are occupied by cities just make it even harder. Assuming that castles even gave you anything useful, that is.

    So I don't think changing pools and recruitment conditions around would be difficult per-se, but the team probably already have their hands full. I will give some thought to maybe changing around. At least give them access to Lusitanian Javelineers and a less painful recruitment of Levy Javelineers.

    Edit: Actually scratch that a unit of Moriscos for Andalusia would be awesome.
    Last edited by RodriguesSting; January 21, 2021 at 09:58 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: PORTUGAL

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    I don't think the issue is the lack of unique units, personally. Medieval 2's system of limited recruitment pools is something I actually like. The problem is that Portugal's current pools are straight up horrible, and the fact that that the two provinces that constitute the kingdom are occupied by cities just make it even harder. Assuming that castles even gave you anything useful, that is.

    So I don't think changing pools and recruitment conditions around would be difficult per-se, but the team probably already have their hands full. I will give some thought to maybe changing around. At least give them access to Lusitanian Javelineers and a less painful recruitment of Levy Javelineers.

    Edit: Actually scratch that a unit of Moriscos for Andalusia would be awesome.
    Meh. Medieval 2 limits are exceptionally annoying to me. In a perfect world, every kingdom would be represented with their unique units and all of them with their own animation sets based on historical fencing and whatnot.

    Still. I enjoyed my 100 turn campaign, it's difficulty is very satisfying and raising it to become the sole ruler of Iberia is quite cool. My armies consisted of javelinmen of all types with some Villanos and merchant Cav.
    Last edited by Draken2007; January 22, 2021 at 06:56 AM.

  18. #18
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: PORTUGAL

    Quote Originally Posted by Draken2007 View Post
    Meh. Medieval 2 limits are exceptionally annoying to me. In a perfect world, every kingdom would be represented with their unique units and all of them with their own animation sets based on historical fencing and whatnot.

    Still. I enjoyed my 100 turn campaign, it's difficulty is very satisfying and raising it to become the sole ruler of Iberia is quite cool. My armies consisted of javelinmen of all types with some Villanos and merchant Cav.
    Hi Draken, it'd be great if you could give some screenshots and some AAR from that campaign. Tell what difficulty level are you playing with.

  19. #19

    Default Re: PORTUGAL

    Upon review, I think Portugal's recruitment issues could be solved entirely if only Lisboa and Coimbra were castles instead of cities. They got good castle recruitment in Portuguese lands, and decent on Spanish, but akin to other Iberians, apparently, abysmal in Andalusian lands. So, as Portuguese lands can't have castles, and Spanish lands would require waging war on fellow Christians...

  20. #20

    Default Re: PORTUGAL

    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    Upon review, I think Portugal's recruitment issues could be solved entirely if only Lisboa and Coimbra were castles instead of cities. They got good castle recruitment in Portuguese lands, and decent on Spanish, but akin to other Iberians, apparently, abysmal in Andalusian lands. So, as Portuguese lands can't have castles, and Spanish lands would require waging war on fellow Christians...
    Coimbra maybe...but Lisboa always was a great city, not a fortress...

    Edit: Castillo de Soure in Coimbra, it is real.
    https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castillo_de_Soure

    although more appropriate would be to take turns Silves in a wooden castle.
    https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castillo_de_Silves
    https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifa_de_Silves
    Last edited by j.a.luna; January 22, 2021 at 12:09 PM.
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