ABBASIDS

[a Dictator's Cigar]

Please consider the following suggestions:


Diversifying the recruitment mechanism mainly for the stables units for both the Abbasids and Fatimids:


Historically, it's popular how the Islamic kingdoms especially the post-Abbasid ones(Zengids, Fatimids, Ayoubids etc) relied heavely on slave soldiers,
even to the point where they where the first to heavely facilitate the process of creating a slave soldiers to the point where these slave soldiers created their own sub-kingdoms and later on ruled the middle east for centuries.

I suggest to perform the following edit on the "Stable" units:
Seperating between the "Slave units" and the "local units" on the level of recruiting.
which means that local units such as the:


Arab Cavalry \ Jaridah Cavalry\ Abtal cavalry \ Tawashi Cavalry
can be still recruited through the "Stables" building chain.


however, for slave cavalry (which considered to be the elite muslim force) there should be a new buildings chain under the name "Mamluke Quarter" and it upgrades to "Mamluke Barracks".
in this new building slots the player can recruit the following:


Mamluke Quarter: Turkish Horse Archers \ Turkomans \ Mamluk Archers \ Ghulams \ Turkish Ghulams


Mamluke Barracks: Mamluks \ Mamluk Archers \ Turkish Ghulams \ Quapukulu (Zengids -era1) \ Khassaki (Z) \ Amirs Guard (Ghulaman-i Khass) \Sibyan al Khass Abbasids -era1

To explain the difference between the Slave units and local units we need to return to the Abbasid revolution when muslim rebels built armies in Persia by recruiting forces from Central Asia in order to fight the Umayyad Dynasty in the middle east. the rebelion succeeded, and with it the Central Asian forces which formed the bulk of the Abbasid rebel armies settled in the region. and with their settlement a new militaryt force was introduced to the middle east such as (Turkish Javelinmen \ Kurdish Javelinmen \Afghan Javelinmen \ Abna Heavy Spearmen (A) \ Abna Heavy Axemen (A) all mentioned above.such units became a locally recruited units representing the mainstream early era Abbasid Force.
However as the Abbasid Kingdom evolved, the Sultans deepend their reliance on foriegn military units yet this time in a more organized way where they created specific institutions to train and raise kidnapped children to become soldiers dedicated and loyal only to the Sultan. these forces where given the name "Mamluke" which translate in Arabic to "Owned". these units rose in the ranks of the military and even beyond it to the political life leading to creating the Fatimid Kingdom which was created by a QipChak Mamluke. even the Zengid Dynasty is a dynasty of Mamlukes who served the court of the Abbasid Caliph before defecting later on as the Abbasids power faded. I'm mentioning this information to underline the importance of the Mamluke role during the 11th century and specifically during the time of the mod. therefore I believe the representation of the Mamluke units should be more promenent for players playing these factions.


Such edit will underline the significant historical reliance of the Islamic Armies on slave recruits and will add a new and exotic taste to the middle eastern factions. such edit can apply on Fatimids, Zingids and Abbasids since they all shared a highly similar recruitment dynamic historically.


I Didn't get to take a look at the upkeep prices of the units in the latest release since I didn't get to test it, yet I believe that the upkeep of the "Mamluke" generated units should be way higher than the local units upkeep to underline the attention given to the Mamluke units by the Caliph in comparison to other units.


One more recommendation is highlighting the large presence of African units in both the Abbasid and Fatimid armies. both kingdoms had a major reliance on such forces which was an exotic phenomena in the eyes of the european historians during the crusades. I believe such addition will contribute to the high diversity of the Muslim armies and will serve well the element of realism. adding few more Zanji \ African units specifically to the Fatimids will serve this purpose well.

I hope I managed to pitch to you some useful points, in any case I'm back online and open to provide any support I could in the nearest opportunity.

Best,

[j.a.luna]

completely agree my friend !, it is true that unit rosters should be reviewed completely in terms of Muslim factions, and you are right as to the importance of slave-soldiers like ghulams or mamluks for the Abbasids, Fatimies and Zengids. Creating a slave barrack is an idea that I commented a long time ago and it should be a unique building for these factions, where being able to count on this building can recruit these units (similar to the Byzantine mercenary hetaraie), it is also important to note that these factions had royal or Sultan / Caliph guard that should be created in the Sultan Palace as the abbasid caliphate guard, royal Mamluks, tabardariyya, kassaki ...
and if possible differentiate the factions a bit from each other even if they are very similar.
For example, the Abbasid focus mainly on infantry (abna and other infantry units such as daylami with swords, spearmen and Persian archers), the zengids more on cavalry, the Fatimies with Mamluks and African infantry, for the Moors to create a black guard of infantry...

[Cephalophore]

I believe we introduced more black units to the Fatimids in the mod. I disagree that they should be in the Abbasid roster. The amount of Nubian/Sudani troops remained incredibly low. The European fascination with Black Moors/Muslims is largely a post medieval invention. Yes, they existed, but you'd be more likely to encounter saqaliba on the battlefield in Iberia. The Moors especially kept blacks as palace guards and were often victims of castration. However, I am not opposed to have a say, "Caliphal Guard" with black, berber, saqaliba, arab, and iberian phenotypes mixed in. What Luna said is agreeable regarding Caliphal Guard units, imo.

One of the earliest references to blacks in Iberia that i know of is in The Song of Roland. I am sure there are others, possibly older. But if I am remembering the poem correctly blacks were quite rare, relative to other types.

imo, Syriacs, Kurds, etc.

he11, the Druze are important to include in the game. I want more diverse units too, but first I think we need to expand on the Arab/Turk/Persian/Berber rosters. Middle East is unironically ethnically diverse , most are just Arabized is all. Should be a druze minor religion in the game too. Give us Druze!

[a Dictator's Cigar]

if possible differentiate the factions a bit from each other even if they are very similar.
For example, the Abbasid focus mainly on infantry (abna and other infantry units such as daylami with swords, spearmen and Persian archers), the zengids more on cavalry, the Fatimies with Mamluks and African infantry, for the Moors to create a black guard of infantry...

I find this point to be briliiantly crucial to refresh the middle eastern theme in the game and just like you said we need to differentiate the factions a bit from each other and it can be done beyond just the military structure of the armies. a savy move would be to finally add the Shiate religion to the fatimids in order to underline the Shiate-Sunni conflict during that time period. I don't know why @Joc haven't applied such important detail so far which would empower the role of "Imams" for the middle eastern factions and will serve the the element of diversity in the region.
Also, I feel like the Crusader states faction is under heavy pressure comparing to the other factions in the region. and it's mainly because of the similarities between the muslim factions and also for the limited geography of the map which forces the muslim factions to fight the Crusader States first in order to reach the point where they would fight each other which is to be honest highly boring and historically unaccurate.
One of the reasons why the Crusader States survived that much time in the middle east was because of the constant conflicts happening between the Muslim factions which is not what we see in the game where the Crusader states are constantly under attack by the muslims. I would like to take this opportunity to suggest the following in order to contribute to both the balance and realism in the middle east region.

1. As J.A Luna suggested we must differentiate the Abbasid \ Fatimid \ Zenged factions from each other and not just on the level of roosters, but also on the level of religion and desired territories by these factions.

2. Editing the settlement layout in the region where the Muslim factions don't have to fight the Crusader states in order to clash with one another. such edit could be applied by adding a settlement in Arabia or somewhere west of the Damasucs desert where the Fatimids and Abbasids can meet and fight. I suggested such thing to @JoC and he agreed that a settlement between Mecca and Baghdad (Najd) could be a good idea yet the Modders team lacked a mapper, yet to me I find it very important to apply such edit to serve the Middle East experience in the game.




@Cephalophore, Regarding the Blacks in Iberia I agree with you on their scarce presence in both the battlefield and even literature. and I don't think the Moors faction should be given such African roosters. yet in the case of the Fatimid's roosters I believe it would serve the historical context positively.

Regarding the Druze religion, it's historically known that it's a product of Fatimid Scholars who developed their own sect and later on conservated it to become what we know today as the Druze religion. If we think in the context of the game I would love to see a Druze rebelion in the Fatimid Kingdom or even the appearance of the Druze religion which if it increases it could lead to a Druze rebelion, to me such edit could highly serve the element of the constant rebelions which stormed the middle east during the medievals.

[a Dictator's Cigar]

2. Editing the settlements layout in the region where the Muslim factions don't have to fight the Crusader states in order to clash with one another. such edit could be applied by adding a settlement in Arabia or somewhere west of the Damasucs desert where the Fatimids and Abbasids can meet and fight. I suggested such thing to @JoC and he agreed that a settlement between Mecca and Baghdad (Najd) could be a good idea yet the Modders team lacked a mapper, yet to me I find it very important to apply such edit to serve the Middle East experience in the game.

@JoC if the obstacle is still not having a mapper in the team, I can take up on myself the task to figure out the mapping of the game and try to apply what I learned and hopefully in a matter of a short time we'll be able to apply such edit.

Best!
Cigar

[Jurand of Cracow]

@JoC if the obstacle is still not having a mapper in the team, I can take up on myself the task to figure out the mapping of the game and try to apply what I learned and hopefully in a matter of a short time we'll be able to apply such edit.

I think this a good opportunity for a submod to the SSHIP.
You'll have to answer yourself many questions, including: which other settlement is to be removed, how to change the impassable tiles into desert ones, how the AI would react (large armies traveling accross desert? Fatimids expanding to Baghdad without paying attention to Syria?) etc.
I wonder how these issues are dealt with in the Broken Crescent or in the EBII.

[a Dictator's Cigar]

I think this a good opportunity for a submod to the SSHIP.
You'll have to answer yourself many questions, including: which other settlement is to be removed, how to change the impassable tiles into desert ones, how the AI would react (large armies traveling accross desert? Fatimids expanding to Baghdad without paying attention to Syria?) etc.
I wonder how these issues are dealt with in the Broken Crescent or in the EBII.

Pardon my ignorance of such complexities. How about adding the Shiite religion to the Fatimids? do you think it will happen anytime soon?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Pardon my ignorance of such complexities. How about adding the Shiite religion to the Fatimids? do you think it will happen anytime soon?

I would think it to be easier but still not very easy. The most laborious issue would be the adjusting the EDCT (the file where traits are defined). Many traits are awared based on religion. Then you'd need to work on EDB (buildings) since some of them are religion related.
Me, I've started by a small mod on a part of the traits (education) then moved to a broader range of the traits, then to ancillaries as well, then to scripting, then to the buildings, then to the (rudimentary) map changes. Moding is a path, and you create it while walking (ie coding).

[Macaras]

Thanks guys for the comments, especially Cigar for the complex and elaborate description- I will try to include some those that concerns recruitment, as much as its possible right now..

[j.a.luna]

Wonderful questions! I'm glad you asked them so I could reflect my opinion towards the realism of the Abassids Faction.

1. The Abbasid units impressively reflect a realistic preview of a traditional Abassid force, however some attention needs to be given to the historical naming of the units, for example the "Fari Lancers" or "Fari Footmen" should actually be fixed to "Fursan Lancers" / "Fursan Footmen" to reflect a more accurate historical naming, same thing with the "Abna spearmen" who should be named "Abna Khurasan Spearmen" and so on(I would love to give more support on that).

Regarding the Hashashin and naffatuns units it is not historically accurate to count them as mercenaries since the Hashashins never acted as a military force but rather as suicidal attackers(Shahid's) who would commit a suicidal attack by order of their leader. and their attacks where mainly aimed at political and religious figures rather than actual military figurers.
On the other hand the Naffatun did function as a formal and common Abbasid military force, however their functionality is disputed since the enemies of the Abbasids always found ways to maneuver the Naffatun's attacks by improving their armor or tactics. Generally, I believe their should be a drastic improvement of the naming of the Abbasid units so it could fit the historical era.


2. Absolutely, The Abbasid era, unlike the Umayyad era, is known to be a highly multi-cultural era, especially in the military aspect. since the Abbasids abandoned their trust in the Arabian tribes to rely on the foreign (Turkish, Persian, African, Kurdish and Armenian) personnel to form their armies, this is how the "Mamluke" figure was created by Muslim kingdoms investing in foreigners as a main component in their armies.

Some units which should be added is the following:

Zenji Warriors: a unit consisting of African warriors bought from slavery by the caliph to become one of his most fierce units, this unit is known to have served in frontlines against the Byzantines and in Persia. the Zenji'ies were poorly armored however they were a main component in every Abbasid campaign especially in its peak during the 9th Century. These Warriors were mainly recruited directly from the slave markets otherwise they were bought from landowner.

Mawali Infantry: The Mawali were the main component of the Abbasid armies since they were the first force to lead the Abbasid rebelion against the Umayyads, thus making them the main structure in every Abbasid military force. the Mawalis were mostly Persian Muslims with utmost loyalty to the Caliph to the point where they ranked up to high positions inside the Abbasid state and society.

Shuttar/Ayarine: This force is mainly made out of Outlaws, thief, and criminals who were recruited in the desperate times in the Abbasid kingdoms and especially during the civil wars. though this force lacked training, yet it showcased supreme loyalty to the Amir an even helped relief Baghdad from it's seige during it's civil war in 813AD. This unit is poorly armored and mostly consisted of infantry fighting in urban territories such as cities and settlements. (In the context of the game they could be recruited as low-tier mercenaries.

3. I'm not sure how to answer this since the Abbasid Kingdom reached it's peak in the early 800's AD and already was collapsing by 1100AD. I Believe a late era building should allow recruiting this force. or whenever the Caliph is crowned this force could be available.

4. Absolutely YES! This is a major flaw in SSHIP. The Fatimids antagonized the Zingeds and Abbasids more than they did to the crusaders just because of the sectarian deferences between both. The Sunni-Shia conflict is the main reason why the middle east was a constant unstable zone even until today. I find it crucial to underline that the Muslim world in the game has two sects fighting each-other especially that these kingdoms are competing over mutual claimed areas(Sunni Zengids/Abbasds/Moors/Seljuks VS Fatimid/Uyunid Rebel Shia's). such fix would increase the complexity of the middle east especially with the Muslim factions since it will increase the importance of the religious institutions in the kingdoms.
Regarding the "Great Imam" figure I find it more suitable to add it to whoever controls the Hijaz region (wherever Mecca and Medina lye) it's the holiest place in Islam and historical was the target of every Islamic empire. during my campaigns with the Muslim factions I never found it attractive to push my armies into Arabia even though historically it's a high ranking goal for any medieval Islamic Kingdom. the idea of having an advantage by controlling such region as a Muslim faction is genius and would add more historical storytelling for any campaign dealing with the middle east.

Finally I would like to add that as I'm playing the Abbasid campaign I feel like the geography of the territory is a bit overlooked. I mean three cities (Baghdad/Wasit/Basrah) don't quite reflect the territory of Iraq. and I feel like their should be at least one or more cities added into the map. maybe the historical city of Kufah in the southern desert of Baghdad. this would bring more realism to the geo-political reality of such period in history.

I really enjoying responding to your questions and would love to answer anything more!

Best Regarsd!
-Cigar

I would like a lot that in a near future it was possible to incorporate the past ideas that were proposed in this thread.
Like the Sunni / Shiite religion for Muslims (and its corresponding dispute between them) as well as whether it was possible to add a GREAT IMAM for muslims similar to the Pope or Echumenical Patriarch, maybe it is follow the same case and control some religiously important region like the Mecca or Baghdad, add a new strat map for this important figure and some important traits as if you have this great iman in your possession you can generate Jihads and improve diplomatic relations with the entire Muslim world
It is just a general idea but I think it could be done in the short term and I would add many flavor to sship game for being the spiritual leader of the whole Muslim world

[Cephalophore]

Hey, Luna/Cigar

Incorporating something akin to a great Iman would be neat from a gameplay perspective, but I don't know how historical this is.. I mean, the Caliph was created to serve as the representative of Muslims in the 'Ummah', but.. it kind of morphed into something different... among other things, we get the Ummayyad remnants claiming Caliphal authority after their dynasty was basically Romanov'd by the Abbasids. Abbasids have their own Caliph, the Ummayyads in Spain did (then we get the whole Almoravid, Almohad deal), Fatimids had a Shia Caliph.. maybe one can entertain this as something akin to pope - anti pope politics.

I mean.. just look at how difficult it was to organize an effective opposition against the Crusaders because the situation going on at the time. I'm kind of going on a tangent.. I'll just say it would be worth investigating the Coptic reactions to the Crusades, people considered heretics by most Christians at the time, and unironically had better conditions under the Fatimids than any other dynasty.

I don't know.. maybe in the future we can figure something out.. It's overwhelmingly complex issue to address historically, but for gameplay it's cool

IIRC religious agents have to have certain piety level to call a holy war?..

[kostic]

Indeed, a Shiite_sunnite opposition with the 2 distinct religions would already be good. I don't know if it's achievable.


Regarding the units for the Abbasids, I notice that the proposals are all inspired by the golden age of the faction ... ie around 800 AD!
In 1132, are these units still relevant? I do not know.

[AnthoniusII]

On 1132 Fatimid Dynasty already dominated in most of the lands that the mod focuses.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Indeed, a Shiite_sunnite opposition with the 2 distinct religions would already be good. I don't know if it's achievable.


Regarding the units for the Abbasids, I notice that the proposals are all inspired by the golden age of the faction ... ie around 800 AD!
In 1132, are these units still relevant? I do not know.

You can have 2 Muslim religions, but I don't think another "pope" mechanics is possible.
The units may have the same names but could be quite a different units. This is similar to the Roman (Greek) language: the names from the far-away past would be used to signify something different.
In 1132 there're both Fatimids and Abbasids in the lands the SSHIP cover.

[j.a.luna]

You can have 2 Muslim religions, but I don't think another "pope" mechanics is possible.
The units may have the same names but could be quite a different units. This is similar to the Roman (Greek) language: the names from the far-away past would be used to signify something different.
In 1132 there're both Fatimids and Abbasids in the lands the SSHIP cover.

Yes, the 2 religion for muslims would be great! The other idea is not make another pope mechanics, is only make a "figure" in the strat map model for a Great Iman, similar to the Byzantine echumenical patriarch, with a unique ancillarie and trait " seal of the Grand Caliph of Baghdad"???but for requirements i dont know, maybe control Mecca city and Baghdad and have 6 or more in piety level, also it would be great make a new strat map model for this in a easy form ( put golden/black color ropes and white beard for example)

[Slaytaninc]

I know the Abbasid Caliphs at this point weren't exactly battle commanders but they do seem to have been largely hereditary. Maybe it can be an ancillary instead of a title, that way you can have any Muslim state earn it if certain conditions are met.

[MoorsihSultan]

is there any way to make abbassid had a superiority over seljuks , zengids , sultanate of rum. make em look as vassals for the abbassid , or give the faction leaders some traits like titles given by the caliph to make them had authority for rule . sultan of Rum , sultan of Persia and Khorassan , sultan of Levantine and mesopotamia , ??

[Jurand of Cracow]

is there any way to make abbassid had a superiority over seljuks , zengids , sultanate of rum. make em look as vassals for the abbassid , or give the faction leaders some traits like titles given by the caliph to make them had authority for rule . sultan of Rum , sultan of Persia and Khorassan , sultan of Levantine and mesopotamia , ??

Malik al-Masriq wa al-Magrib could be another part of moding the crowns, if there's a moder to do it.

[eyelurker]

It feels strange seeing earlier thread people attacking and peace Seljuk first. Because my strategy is to kill Zengids and ally the Crusader since Abassid crown don't require attacking Crusaders or Seljuks.

Reputation is a problem though since you have to attack Zengids and capture Mosul which you need to sack since it's an unstable region. I'm wondering if i should play nice first to make peace and ally both Seljuk and Crusader before attacking Zengids.

Edit : The plan is a bust. Crusader now no longer want to ally if i'm not at war with Zengids.

[eyelurker]

So i'm not sure of the validity of this but i heard Baghdad after Samarra anarchy and Zand rebellion goes through a period of decline that Abbasid could never restore because well they no longer have the large financial required to maitain Baghdad prosperity, mainly their dikes.

This will cut away Abbasid power very big since they are heavily relied on Baghdad(and to a lesser extent Basra) for their income. On another hand it make make Abbasid cannot make a comeback and how other power except for Seljuk and only after Abbasid revolt are not really interested in holding Baghdad itself make more sense. Is also give a goal to not neccesarily expand but try to restore Baghad as the biggest and most glorious capital.