SELJUCS

[Jurand of Cracow]

I. General information

This thread is meant to gather all information about the faction and to conduct discussions on the faction related issues.

The entries should be developed by both the SSHIP team and the interested players.

Bibliography:
The Great Seljuk Empire, by A. C. S. Peacock, EUP, 2015 - seems to be a good and recent scientific book on this faction in English.

[Jurand of Cracow]

II. Strategy & gameplay


To be developed in due course. If you've played the game with this faction and have insights how to help fellow players, please write a proposal for this section.

[Jurand of Cracow]

III. Provinces (incl. names, provincial titles, resources, map features etc.)

The provinces that have historically been assigned to this faction are listed here - it's usually defined by the "faction_creator" in the "descr_strat.txt" file.

Tabriz (xxx, xxx)
PT: xxx (xx).
CoA: xxx
Settlement name: xxxx.
Resources: xxxx.
Fertility: x.

Alamut (xxx, xxx)
PT: xxx (xx).
CoA: xxx
Settlement name: xxxx.
Resources: xxxx.
Fertility: x.

Rayy (xxx, xxx)
PT: xxx (xx).
CoA: xxx
Settlement name: xxxx.
Resources: xxxx.
Fertility: x.

Merv (xxx, xxx)
PT: xxx (xx).
CoA:
Settlement name: Merv. Turkic name is Marv, persian Merv, the question is which to use.
Resources: many.
Fertility: x. Very fertile oasis.

An article about Merv is here.

[Jurand of Cracow]

IV. Faction specific features (Crown, Offices, Bloodline, Traits, Buildings)

The Crown of Turks is discussed in this entry.
(once finished and implemented, it might be copied here as well)

The Offices are described in this thread.


The Seljucks have access to some buildings that may be not available to every faction.
(note: this might be important for getting certain traits).

Turkic Blood: not checked.

Specific traits: not checked.

The Turks face a particular challenge from an invasion by Qara Ketay (historical circumstances see here) - there's a special script providing options.

[Jurand of Cracow]

V. Starting position in 1132 (incl. settlements, armies, generals, traits, political situation)

to be developed in due course

[Jurand of Cracow]

VI. Units

to be developed in due course

[Jurand of Cracow]

VIII. Reserve

to be used if needed

[Cephalophore]

Seljuqs
1132
Sultan Rukn al-Dīn Toghrïl (king)
Hamadan (small garrison) and Ray (larger garrison), Isfahan, and Fars. 3 cities 1 Castle.
Rebel Army of Malik Mas'ūd in Tabriz?
Amir Mengü-bars in Fars(general)
Qara Sanqor - General outside Tabriz
Sirāj al-Dīn Qaymaz (Ray)

Khwarezmia (new "dynasty")
Shah al-Dīn Tekish becomes new Ruler in 1194.
For the game, perhaps you automatically gain the some of the cities of the East? You will need them if you want to stand a chance against the Mongols? Access to Persian units? (idk how to script such things)

Sourced from Akhbar al-dawla al-saljuqiyya. There's a translated edition.

The Seljuk Empire was fragmented into multiple smaller states in 1132 when the campaign starts. The two main bases being that of Western Persia (The Great Seljuq Empire) and the Rum Turks in Anatolia. The Khwarez defeated them definitively at Ray in 1194 as I mentioned above. If it were possible, imo, we should have the Dynastic switch in 1194 which would give the faction access to the persian units and perhaps automatically giving the player Nishapur and Merv if they don't already have these settlements? This would illustrate the Khawarz takeover and buff the player for the Mongol Invasion..

Seljuk Sultan becomes Khawarz Shah
Turkic becomes Persian

If too ambitious, I believe switching the faction back to Kharazmia like in SS is better than keeping the Seljuks who could be represented by Rum style rebels.
-------------------------------------------------UPDATED 8/18/20
Rebels
Bavandids (651–1349) could be represented by rebels in Rey, Alamut, and Tabriz area.
Ghurids (879–1215) in the border of the map on Iran. Merv, Kerman?
Salghurids (1148–1282) around Isfahan.

Political Geographics
As above, the Seljuks would be better represented if present in Western Iran with Hamadan as their capital. Khwarezmia would own Merv, Neyshabur, Konjikala, and Urgench, maybe Kerman.

Suggestion
Given that there isn't a "Persian" culture in the game (would be awesome though). The easiest way to improve the Seljuks is to move them West set up as I have briefly outlined above.

Medieval Persian Place Names
Ispahan, KermAn, Marw, NewsAbUhr, Shiraz, GurgAnchBold letters have macron marks.
--------------------------------------------------------UPDATED 10/08/20
http://eanw.info/konkurs-2012/The-Seljuks.pdf
Page 188, Break-up and Disappearance of the Great Seljuk Empire

[Angelo_Auditore]

Hi, I sugest that the settlement in the Kerman province should be named Bardasir or Bardsir. I have this quote from The Cambridge History of Iran Vol. 5 (

"Malik-Shah eventually restored Kerman (province) to Qavurt’s sons; Rukn al-Daula Sultan-Shah ruled from 1074 to 1085 (…) at one point Sultan-Shah loyalty to the Seljuks became ambiguous and in 1080-1 Mailk-Shah marched to the capital of Bardasir, receiving there Sultan-Shah’s homage and contenting himself with the destruction of one of the towers in the citadel".

[Fishmalk]

Seljuqs
1132
Sultan Rukn al-Dīn Toghrïl (king)
Hamadan (small garrison) and Ray (larger garrison), Isfahan, and Fars. 3 cities 1 Castle.
Rebel Army of Malik Mas'ūd in Tabriz?
Amir Mengü-bars in Fars(general)
Qara Sanqor - General outside Tabriz
Sirāj al-Dīn Qaymaz (Ray)

Khwarezmia (new "dynasty")
Shah al-Dīn Tekish becomes new Ruler in 1194.
For the game, perhaps you automatically gain the some of the cities of the East? You will need them if you want to stand a chance against the Mongols? Access to Persian units? (idk how to script such things)

Sourced from Akhbar al-dawla al-saljuqiyya. There's a translated edition.

The Seljuk Empire was fragmented into multiple smaller states in 1132 when the campaign starts. The two main bases being that of Western Persia (The Great Seljuq Empire) and the Rum Turks in Anatolia. The Khwarez defeated them definitively at Ray in 1194 as I mentioned above. If it were possible, imo, we should have the Dynastic switch in 1194 which would give the faction access to the persian units and perhaps automatically giving the player Nishapur and Merv if they don't already have these settlements? This would illustrate the Khawarz takeover and buff the player for the Mongol Invasion..

Seljuk Sultan becomes Khawarz Shah
Turkic becomes Persian

If too ambitious, I believe switching the faction back to Kharazmia like in SS is better than keeping the Seljuks who could be represented by Rum style rebels.
-------------------------------------------------UPDATED 8/18/20
Rebels
Bavandids (651–1349) could be represented by rebels in Rey, Alamut, and Tabriz area.
Ghurids (879–1215) in the border of the map on Iran. Merv, Kerman?
Salghurids (1148–1282) around Isfahan.

Political Geographics
As above, the Seljuks would be better represented if present in Western Iran with Hamadan as their capital. Khwarezmia would own Merv, Neyshabur, Konjikala, and Urgench, maybe Kerman.

Suggestion
Given that there isn't a "Persian" culture in the game (would be awesome though). The easiest way to improve the Seljuks is to move them West set up as I have briefly outlined above.

Medieval Persian Place Names
Ispahan, KermAn, Marw, NewsAbUhr, Shiraz, GurgAnchBold letters have macron marks.
--------------------------------------------------------UPDATED 10/08/20
http://eanw.info/konkurs-2012/The-Seljuks.pdf
Page 188, Break-up and Disappearance of the Great Seljuk Empire

Keep it simple. The campaign starts in 1132. The faction should be the seljuks. The AI can have scripted expansion if it is warranted, but the player needs to play the game; let them take those rebel cities themselves. Access to the persian units could be handled as AOR, or gated by an event that requires the seljuks to control the khwarzem land or by date. If the seljuks are already based in Persia, i'm not sure restricting the persian units from them until Tekish takes over is appropriate anyway.

From a gameplay perspective, SS khwarzem was awful early game. They had no nearby or neighboring factions except the cumans and their vast tracts of poor, land. Any reasonable player spent their time gobbling up rebels until the mongols hit. The seljuks in SSHIP are relevant to many other factions from the beginning, which gives the player options and priorities to balance while preparing for the mongols. I think a reversion to the SS faction & (much more importantly) map position would be a massive downgrade.

[Cephalophore]

Keep it simple. The campaign starts in 1132. The faction should be the seljuks. The AI can have scripted expansion if it is warranted, but the player needs to play the game; let them take those rebel cities themselves. Access to the persian units could be handled as AOR, or gated by an event that requires the seljuks to control the khwarzem land or by date. If the seljuks are already based in Persia, i'm not sure restricting the persian units from them until Tekish takes over is appropriate anyway.

From a gameplay perspective, SS khwarzem was awful early game. They had no nearby or neighboring factions except the cumans and their vast tracts of poor, land. Any reasonable player spent their time gobbling up rebels until the mongols hit. The seljuks in SSHIP are relevant to many other factions from the beginning, which gives the player options and priorities to balance while preparing for the mongols. I think a reversion to the SS faction & (much more importantly) map position would be a massive downgrade.

Unfortunately, I completed missed this feedback. At this point I am of this opinion:

"If too ambitious, I believe switching the faction back to Kharazmia like in SS is better than keeping the Seljuks who could be represented by Rum style rebels."

It should be simpler, yes. I was unaware at the time of how impractical dynastic switches are. IIRC the Seljuks were based primarily in western modern day Iran, roughly along the Zagros. I agree that Khwarez in SS was awful - it was a nightmare. However, in SSHIP, playing as Seljuks or Abbassids in my experience has been equally terrible. If you're playing as either the AI will blitzkrieg you into defeat rapidly on VH/VH. If one implements Khwarez back into the game, then there could be seljuk rebel buffer settlements between the two factions.

Between the Seljuks and Khwarez we don't really have much material..

IMO, both factions are on the verge of total collapse in 1132. There are multiple minor factions (in game rebels, ideally) amongst their borders. In the real world, Khwarezmia won-out.. the seljuks evaporated besides from Anatolia and the Caucasus.

They had no nearby or neighboring factions except the cumans and their vast tracts of poor, land

This particularly is a hard disagree for me. They had plenty of internal and external enemies (can be represented by rebels). and historical Khwarezmia was quite decent land. It was more water abundant and the Aral sea was actually viable source of wealth. They sat along the Silk Road and everything coming to and from China/Europe/NorthAfrica/Middle East went through this area. As for farm land, yeah, it isn't the best, but it's not arabia. There are plenty fertile regions in Iran.

If the seljuks are already based in Persia, i'm not sure restricting the persian units from them until Tekish takes over is appropriate anyway.

I am in agreement on this at this point in time.

I think we have more to gain from the Khwarez faction than the Seljuks. Both are undeniably dying states, but the Khwarez are (1) more historically viable since they exist up until the Mongol invasion (2) distinct from the Rum and Zengid copy cat factions. (3) Persianate faction reasonably converts to Shia furthering diversifying the factions - ahistorical, but not impossible

I just want to drop this video here:
https://youtu.be/_Vzf1kPkCdc

[Slaytaninc]

1194 is 62 years after the start of the mod. There's really no reason to have any sort of "dynastic change," the rise of the Khwarezmian empire as the dominant power in Iran is far from inevitable at this point. Saladin's takeover of Fatimid Egypt was just as historically important but there's no plans to have Egypt switch over to his control.

[Cephalophore]

Yes, I have come to oppose the dynastic change thing. However, SSHIP has and is implementing 'reforms'.. We currently have them for Egypt. Ayyubids Rise and Mamluks Rise. I'm not sure exactly how these function, tbqh.

If I'm just going on some idealistic fantasy of the perfect 'Persia' Campaign/Faction I think that among other things the events of 1194 could best be represented by a script that simulates the Seljuk-Khwarez conflict and would present unique challenges for the player. We have a William Wallace script, Mongols, early scripted sieges, revolts and whatnot for historical flavor.. I don't see why there is reason to object to this for a hypothetical Khwarez faction. The consolidation of the Kwarezmian Empire could play into SSHIPs crown system as well.

To reiterate, I've abandoned the idea of dynastic change. I simply think Kwarezmia is a better faction from a gameplay and historical perspective. I don't know why the Seljuks were chosen to replace them when they're already fractured into the Zengids and Rum Dynasties (among others which aren't represented by factions in game). The Seljuks in Persia are on borrowed time in 1132. If our campaign started anywhere between 1040-1090 then I'd agree with using them, but 1132 is pushing it.

[j.a.luna]

Ship developers is it possible to "make the Selyuk faction more Persian"? In plan if there was a transition at the end of the 12th century in Chorasmios with Persian units differentiating them more from the Rum Selyuks and Fatimies / Mamluks, I don't know if Kostic can improve their units and differentiate them with respect to the rest of the Muslims, it would be good to represent in some way to the Chorasmians whom Togrul III was sultan of all the Seljuks except Anatolia. In 1194, however, Togrul was defeated and killed by Tekish, the shah of the Chorasmian Empire, and the Seljuk sultanate finally collapsed.

I think one way to represent it would be through access to Persian units focusing more on infantry and heavy cavalry (Persian archers, Persian spearmen, Persian Horse archers...) as well as perhaps some benefit in their buildings, it would be similar to the transition of fatimies- ayubids- mamluks.