RUM

[Jurand of Cracow]

I. General information

This thread is meant to gather all information about the faction and to conduct discussions on the faction related issues.
The entries should be developed by both the SSHIP team and the interested players.

It continues the discussion conducted in this thread.

[Jurand of Cracow]

II. Strategy & gameplay


To be developed in due course. If you've played the game with this faction and have insights how to help fellow players, please write a proposal for this section.

I think the biggest problem when playing with Rum is Byzantium. Even though I play in medium, it is very difficult to play against them in the early period. They are constantly attacking me and the Byzantine units are very strong. Auto battles are very difficult. I found a good tactic against Byzantium. At the beginning of the game, I took Istanbul and destroyed buildings. Because when I have Istanbul, there is always a crusade. Later, even though Byzantium takr Istanbul, it constantly rebelled and lost. He takes it again and loses again. This is my only solution at the moment.

The most common problem I see is the crusader armies. After the Crusade is over, the armies cannot return to their countries. They are constantly commuting between Adana and Kayseri and Malatya. Especially Adana very big problem. Every factions armies are stuck there. They cannot find their way.

[Jurand of Cracow]

III. Provinces

The provinces that have historically been assigned to this faction are listed here - it's usually defined by the "faction_creator" in the "descr_strat.txt" file.

Provincial titles:
General explanations to be found in the relevant thread on the PTs.
Catholic: generic Latin term "Comes ... -ae" everywhere.
Orthodox: generic "Knyaz ... -sky"
Muslim: generic "Emir of".
Coast of arms: from the base SS6.4 unless explicitely described here.
Names of provinces: from the base SSHIP unless explicitely described here.

A useful map:




In my opinion the sizes of the settlements in Anatolia are not right in the 092/096. Large Turk in-land cities? This was made just for the gameplay, not history. Or rather using the wrong sources.

-------------

A good article on the Rum-Byzantine frontiers is The Seljuk Sultanate of Rum and the Turkmen of the Byzantine Frontier, 1206-1279.

-------------

Antalkya (Attaleia, Attaleia_Province)
PT: not reviewied.
Settlement name: Attaleia ( it, it changes to Antalkya)
CoA: not checked.
Province name: Pamphylia (right given that it was a Byzantine province for centuries)
Resources: ...
Fertility: ok.
Size: ac.
Initial buildings: .


Konya (Konya, Konya_Province)
PT: not reviewied.
Settlement name: Konya. (if the Byzantines take it, it changes to Ikonium)
CoA: not checked.
Province name: ...
Resources: ...
Fertility: ok.
Size: according to the new research, at the begining of 12c this province was deserted by the ERE elites and not yet populated by the Turks. It should be rather sparcely populated.
Initial buildings: .


Angora (Angora, Angora_Province)
PT: not reviewied.
Settlement name: Angora. (if the Byzantines take it, it changes to Ankyra)
CoA: not checked.
Province name: ...
Resources: ...
Fertility: ok.
Size: according to the new research, at the begining of 12c this province was deserted by the ERE elites and not yet populated by the Turks. It should be rather sparcely populated.
Initial buildings: .


Kayseri (Caesarea, Caesarea_Province)
PT: not reviewied.
Settlement name: Kayseri. (if the Byzantines take it, it changes to Cesarea)
CoA: not checked.
Province name: ...
Resources: ...
Fertility: ok.
Size: according to the new research, at the begining of 12c this province was deserted by the ERE elites and not yet populated by the Turks. It should be rather sparcely populated.
Initial buildings: .


Sives (Sives, Sives_Province)
PT: not reviewied.
Settlement name: Sives (if the Byzantines take it, it changes to Sebasteia)
CoA: not checked.
Province name: ...
Resources: ...
Fertility: ok.
Size: according to the new research, at the begining of 12c this province was deserted by the ERE elites and not yet populated by the Turks. It should be rather sparcely populated.
Initial buildings: .


Malatya (Malatya, Malatya_Province)
PT: not reviewied.
Settlement name: Angora. (if the Byzantines take it, it changes to Ankyra)
CoA: not checked.
Province name: ...
Resources: ...
Fertility: ok.
Size: according to the new research, at the begining of 12c this province was deserted by the ERE elites and not yet populated by the Turks. It should be rather sparcely populated.
Initial buildings: .


Qaliqala (Erzurum, Erzurum_Province)
PT: not reviewied.
Settlement name: Qaliqala. (if the Turks take it, it changes to Erzurum, if the Byzantines: Theodosiopoulis)
CoA: not checked.
Province name: ...
Resources: ...
Fertility: ok.
Size: acc....
Initial buildings: .


Sinop (Sinop, Sinop_Province)
PT: not reviewied.
Settlement name: Sinope. (if the Turks take it, it changes to Sinop)
CoA: not checked.
Province name: ...
Resources: ...
Fertility: ok.
Size: according .
Initial buildings: .


Trapesous (Trebizond, Trebizond_Province)
PT: not reviewied.
Settlement name: Trapesus. (if the Turks take it, it changes to Trebizond)
CoA: not checked.
Province name: ...
Resources: ...
Fertility: ok.
Size: acced.
Initial buildings: .

[Jurand of Cracow]

IV. Faction specific features (Crown, Offices, Bloodline, Traits, Buildings)

The Crown of Rum is discussed in this entry.
(once finished and implemented, it might be copied here as well)

The Offices are described in this thread.


Rum has access to some buildings that may be not available to every faction.
(note: this might be important for getting certain traits).

Turkic Blood: not checked.

Specific traits: not checked.

[Jurand of Cracow]

V. Starting position in 1132 (incl. settlements, armies, generals, traits, political situation)

to be developed in due course

[Jurand of Cracow]

VI. Units

Even though I like the script, the better way to help Rum would be with units. I think the common horse archers should have normal formation instead of the tribal one, it would help a lot with micromanaging the army. I know they are "tribal" but they were still disciplined so it would make sense. If you think this would be OP, I would suggest taking them off of other factions' roster like the Abbasids. Another thing is I think an event should trigger if the Rums make it to Europe that allows them to have the non-gun Janissary units and the "Ottoman Infantry" (should be renamed really) unit earlier. This would help a looooot and make playing them more fun. I don't see any reason why the non-gun janissary units have to come in with the gun reforms. On my last run I got bored with the save before I ever had janissaries.

[Jurand of Cracow]

VIII. Reserve

to be used if needed

[Jurand of Cracow]

Pro memoria - the changes of the names of provinces were made in 096.

I think the whole issue should be more discussed so let's gather ideas in the thread you mentioned. For the moment just to note I've got further doubts:
- Soutern Cappadocia is now around Malatya, on the eastern side of the Antitaurus. I don't think it's the proper name since Cappadocia were on the western side of the mountais, it was the Halys basin area. Eg. in the Broken Crescent this part is called Lesser Armenia (which I also have doubts). Commagene would be more pertinent I think (but I'm not certain).
--- the central part of the current SSHIP province Lycia is made out of the historical Pamphylia while spreading west to Lycia and east to some parts of Rough Cilicia / Isauria. I'm not sure about the use of "Pamphylia" term in 12th century, but at the moment it sounds right to me. In the Roman times there're was a province "Lycia and Pamphylia" here (although for a short time). Lycia was in fact just a small hilly land with some rivers and some towns sitting on them. I don't think we should use it in SSHIP for such a vast province.
--- there's not Pontus province in SSHIP. I believe the term was used extensivelly in the Middle Ages. There's Chaldia province with Trebizon, I've got no clue about, so I cannot tell. I assume it's right but one may reflect upon. In the Ancient times the Northern Cappadocia was called Kapadokia Pontika what then transformed into Pontus. In the late antiquity it was supposed to be on the coast, so I thought that the coast with Trebizond would be called Pontus. Again. I'm still not firm on it.

Initial thought is that we may replace names:
--- Pamphylia (Konya) with Lycaonia,
--- Lycia (Attaleia) with "Lycia and Pamphylia" or "Pamphylia"
--- Lycaonia (Kayseri) with Southern Cappadocia,
--- Souther Cappadocia (Malatya) with something different (Armenia Minor, Commagene or simply Malatya)

/Pro memoria: there's a city on the Euphratus/Firat called in arabic Qualiquala, armenian Karin, turkish Erzurum, greek Theodosiopoulis. I wonder which of these names should be used in the SSHIP. Now it's Qualiqala which seems to be right in 7-10 century, but perhaps not later on. It got its Turkish name after the invasions following the battle of Mantzikert (see here, but've read it elsewhere). It seems to me that in the SSHIP it should be Erzurum while playing the Turks and Karin while playing Geogria and Theodosioupolis while playing Vasileia ton Hromaion or Kiev./

Anyway, create the thread and maybe some other people (Giorgios? Antonisilus?) would have ideas. We need a discussion, like we had on HRR provinces.

BTW - Rum in the High Era campaign (1236) is overpowered: it has 8 very developed provinces. Close to that moment it should also have a gigantic Mongol army at the gates (to be defeat Rum at Kose Dag 1243). I think in the SSHIP the Mongols come later in the High Era (I don't know how it's going) so we need to make the life of Rum harsher with the other means. It would be strange to have smaller and less developed settlements in the high era than in the early era though. So - Carthaginem delendam esse - I think that Konya should be nerfed much in the early campaign, and the game balance in 1132 should be restored through other means (like additional nomad army ready to take over more lands? This would be more historical and would leave the player space to develop this land during his own game, not be given with a 70k, 50k, 40k settlements...

[beratkenanarslan]

dude I am shocked about devletül seljuk... is that faction's place historically accurate or historically disaster? at 1071 with malazgirt battle Turks entered anatolia. SSHIP campaign is at 12th century so Turks (devletül seljuk) were already in anatolia already got nicea at 12th century and were pushing limits against byzantine empire but you put them to the west asia rofl. Can you please explain me how is it historically accurate?

[beratkenanarslan]

sorry but I don't know how to edit my post I want to add something more for example second thing I am disgusted that: guys let me tell you a truth there is not such thing a "kingdom of rum" there were only small rum villages exist and they never become able to create their own kingdom they were just "small population-small villages" and they were always belong to the Turks never became a kingdom. I just really don't understand where you get these information

[beratkenanarslan]

I am mad not because it is historically inaccurate I am mad because I believe it is made intentionally. There is a huge hate exist against Turkey/Muslim people in EU. So you put Rum Kingdom instead of Devletül Seljuk. And put Seljuk's to the near to end of map and call is historically accurate and wishing history is like that and telling everybody it is historically accurate is a big lie and shamefull.

[Nemesis2345]

I am mad not because it is historically inaccurate I am mad because I believe it is made intentionally. There is a huge hate exist against Turkey/Muslim people in EU. So you put Rum Kingdom instead of Devletül Seljuk. And put Seljuk's to the near to end of map and call is historically accurate and wishing history is like that and telling everybody it is historically accurate is a big lie and shamefull.

Please refrain yourself from racist accusations and such , i think you are heavily overreacting , the mod is still work in progress , as each faction will get attention when time permits it.

Instead of jumping off like that i would advice you help with good information in the Rum/Seljuk threads where the devs and other people gather info in order to change the factions correctly.

[beratkenanarslan]

bro to make that huge fail you must have 0 historical knowledge. Because at that times "Turks entering anatolia" were big topic for European factions. So they tried to stop them with crusades after they saw Turks are succesfull at middle east. Like how you can be unknowledged about that while making a medieval age mod? Thats obvious there is made intentionally

[removeduser_28376423423]

I am mad not because it is historically inaccurate I am mad because I believe it is made intentionally. There is a huge hate exist against Turkey/Muslim people in EU. So you put Rum Kingdom instead of Devletül Seljuk. And put Seljuk's to the near to end of map and call is historically accurate and wishing history is like that and telling everybody it is historically accurate is a big lie and shamefull.

I don't know where do you get that idea from, I see dedicated threads open for discussion for each faction in SSHIP subforum, I'd like to remind you that people who work on this are doing it voluntarily, dedicatedly, over years, and above all, for a videogame. I'm just a fan of this mod, I've seen these people work with passion for a long time and your comment seemed rude to me, though I won't put any blame on you at all or ask you to behave differently, I still think It'd be great if you could agree and notice on your own that what you said was, most probably, unjustified and harsh (The political, not the argument on historical accuracy).

[beratkenanarslan]

allright I was angry and probably I was rude I am sorry for that. But as I told you at my last message. It is like making England without putting king and queen into it. Anatolia is Turk's homeland since 1071. And seeing Rums instead of my country is provocative

[kostic]

The sultanate of de Roum was founded in 1080 by Soliman.


In 1132, when the SSHIP mod begins, the Sultanate of Roum is well established in Anatolia and there remains nevertheless a piece of the Seljuk Empire which is already well divided in the 12th century (the mod strives to represent the divisions but the faction limit imposed by the game engine forces modders to simplify).
Nicea no longer belongs to the Turks since 1097, nor Dorylée ...
at first glance I don't see what is so wrong about this mod.

[Kilo11]

Beratkenanarslan, as Sindathar said, we develop this in our spare time, and are doing the best we can. I can also tell you that our team is diverse and we are all most passionately interested in this being first and foremost a historically accurate mod. I don't know if anyone on our team is Turkish (right now, we are pretty small), but if you have information indicating something should be changed, do definitely post it in the relevant threads (all faction subthreads can be found here, and at these links you can find the specific threads for the Seljuks and the Seljuks of Rum). Also, keep in mind that with our eye to historical accuracy, we have a tendency to prioritize scholarly or other sources over simple websites. We are also very skeptical of any source that appears to have a nationalist bend of any type, as these have a tendency to play up or down certain important historical points. I recognize that some sources may also be in languages we don't speak, and if you are willing to provide a sketch of what the content of such things is, that is also helpful!

Finally, if you want to provide specific suggestions or input about things like names or little details along those lines, these things are extremely well appreciated, as most of us Westerners have a massively hard time knowing what regional terms are most appropriate. In short, we really do want this to be good, and we have no agenda in place, so just be respectful and try to help us out!

[beratkenanarslan]

The sultanate of de Roum was founded in 1080 by Soliman.


In 1132, when the SSHIP mod begins, the Sultanate of Roum is well established in Anatolia and there remains nevertheless a piece of the Seljuk Empire which is already well divided in the 12th century (the mod strives to represent the divisions but the faction limit imposed by the game engine forces modders to simplify).
Nicea no longer belongs to the Turks since 1097, nor Dorylée ...
at first glance I don't see what is so wrong about this mod.

Wowwww... alright alright nice wish. Let me tell you the what happened

Turks were coming from Asia as always, invading european countries. But this time they thought like "oh actually why we always go back instead of staying and getting benefit of these filthy resources". So Turks decided to move to Anatolia. At that times Byzantine Empire (aka old East Roman Empire) were holding those lands (Anatolia). Not rums or georgians. They were crashed and destroyed when the first Turk wave came (which starts at 1077 but I will talk about it later just wait <3). They were so weak even Byzantine Empire were not counting them as a Sultanate or Kingdom. They were weak villages which is not even able to decline tribute. Or their words were not even cared about any other middle east factions. But interestingly mod developers and EU people just care so much about those little tribes. Whatever lets continue with how Turks were at Anatolia how georgia and rums were not sultanate or kingdom. Firstly Turks started to enter anatolia at 1071 with Manzikert (Malazgirt in real name) battle against byzantine. thats what "books" , "encyclopedia" , "wikipedia", "history" says. I mention these because I am not talking from my mind. I will share resources don't worry . There were byzantine at that fight agains seljuks. But mod developers put rum kingdom at that territory which is interesting maybe coincidence who knows. let me share you some images then I will continue:



So it is easy to see there is no rum sultanate yep? whatever let me show you more and what happened after that because you won't be satisfied.



So as you can see it is easy to see that Turks fought agains byzantine at 1077 for Nicaea and took it. Then they stayed there this was the first time they didn't go back.



more more all from wikipedia Idk what else to say and if you need historically accurate info I can give it all day long

[beratkenanarslan]

Beratkenanarslan, as Sindathar said, we develop this in our spare time, and are doing the best we can. I can also tell you that our team is diverse and we are all most passionately interested in this being first and foremost a historically accurate mod. I don't know if anyone on our team is Turkish (right now, we are pretty small), but if you have information indicating something should be changed, do definitely post it in the relevant threads (all faction subthreads can be found here, and at these links you can find the specific threads for the Seljuks and the Seljuks of Rum). Also, keep in mind that with our eye to historical accuracy, we have a tendency to prioritize scholarly or other sources over simple websites. We are also very skeptical of any source that appears to have a nationalist bend of any type, as these have a tendency to play up or down certain important historical points. I recognize that some sources may also be in languages we don't speak, and if you are willing to provide a sketch of what the content of such things is, that is also helpful!

Finally, if you want to provide specific suggestions or input about things like names or little details along those lines, these things are extremely well appreciated, as most of us Westerners have a massively hard time knowing what regional terms are most appropriate. In short, we really do want this to be good, and we have no agenda in place, so just be respectful and try to help us out!

Thank you for your kind answer now I feel shameful for my attack because you really seem don't know in deep and want to explore so I will make a big post to inform you mod developers about those times geography and history. I hope my efforts will change something in the future. I would really like to play truthfully accurate middle east campaign.

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

This is the situation in Asia Minor when the mod begins 1132.