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Thread: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    I. General information

    This thread is meant to gather all information about the faction and to conduct discussions on the faction related issues.
    The entries should be developed by both the SSHIP team and the interested players.
    It continues the discussion conducted in this thread.



    Description of the faction (what you read in-game)

    {IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_BYZANTIUM_TITLE}The Polity of the Romans
    {IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_BYZANTIUM_DESCR}Nearly a thousand years after the proclamation of citizenship for all free men of the Roman Empire, the world is transformed - but the Roman people survive.\n\n“Romania”, their state is called- “Romanland”, still ruled, as it has been for eight centuries from the great imperial city on the Bosphorus. Whilst the city’s ancient name, Byzantion, is remembered by its educated elites, to the great mass of the Roman people, their capital is Konstantinoupolis, or simply “the City”. For the capital of Romania remains the inviolate Queen of Cities- largest, richest, and most opulent metropolis of Christendom. \n\nThat is not to say the Roman world is all it was. Within living memory, the collapse of Romania herself was all too real a prospect, with one city after another falling to the barbarians, and ruler after ruler being replaced in a desperate struggle for survival. But now, after a titanic effort, Romania is stable. Her European provinces are secured, and in Asia, a strong start has been made on recovering lost territories, even if the assistance of the Frankish barbarians was required. Current Emperor Ioannes II Komnenos is a dynamic and capable monarch, in the prime of his life- under him, there is a real chance of restoring Romania to its status as indisputably the greatest state in Christendom. \n\nHISTORICAL NOTE- The grant of citizenship to all free men of the Roman Empire in 212 accelerated ongoing processes of Romanisation, and transformed, by the fourth century, the multi-ethnic Roman Empire of the classical era into the far more cohesive state of Romania, with a strong collective Roman identity across the Mediterranean, amongst Greek and Latin speakers alike. The coming of Christianity and the foundation of Constantinople as a new imperial capital in the 320s further set the stone on this transformation. \n\nThough the state we know today as “Byzantium” endured many setbacks and failures, most notably in the permanent destruction of her global superpower status in the seventh century, Roman ideals and institutions continued regardless. The twelfth century would be the last great flowering of imperial power, but the Roman people continued to survive, albeit often under Latin or Turkish occupation, into the 20th century. Even the Greek language, puzzled Enlightenment travellers noted, had come to be known as “Romaic”. The rise of the modern Greek nation state began to put an end to ideas of Romanness, but even today, there are small communities of Greek speakers who continue to call themselves “Roman”.


    Scholarly historical information and sources

    An interview on the history of Byzantium (well, it's for the beginners) is given by an eminent scholar prof. Kaldellis here.

    One of the best centers for research on Byzantium for the English-speakers is the Dumbarton Oaks Research Library and Collection.

    For the Polish speakers an important institution is the Ceraneum.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 23, 2021 at 03:24 AM.

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    Default [F] - Byzantium

    II. Strategy & gameplay

    If you've played the game with this faction and have insights how to help fellow players, please write a strategy relevant for this section. Don't forget about mentioning difficulty and version of the SSHIP (with possible patches and submods).

    Strategy by offcialdeo at post 25. (for v. 095 of 2020)

    Strategy by yoba99 at post 115 (for v. 098 September 2022)
    .
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; December 01, 2022 at 07:26 AM.

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    Default [F] - Byzantium

    III. Provinces

    The provinces that have historically been associated with this faction are listed here - it's usually defined by the "faction_creator" in the "descr_strat.txt" file. However, some may be in another faction's thread - due to historical or purely technical reasons.

    Provincial titles rules:
    General explanations to be found in the relevant thread on the PTs.
    Catholic: usually Latin term “Comes”.

    Orthodox: Stragos ?
    Muslim: generic "Emir of" + settlement name.

    Name of the settlements: early era / high era / late era. If changes after conquest of another faction/religion, it can be changed through script.

    Many maps of Byzantium are to be found here but I find many errors on them, so it's better to use historical atlases.

    Chersonesos
    (
    Chersonesos, Chersonesos_Province)
    PT: Comes xxxx
    Settlement name: Chersonesos. In the high/late era: Caffa.
    CoA: not checked.
    Province name: Taurika (Crimea has been used later, I believe).
    Resources: lots of resources: very famous for salt, but also wine and forest resources (wood, pitch).
    Fertility: not very very feritile (also to negatively compensate for an additional fertility given by M2TW enginge from the trade).
    Initial size: fairly small.
    Initial buildings: very few.

    Constantinople (xxx, xxx_Province)
    PT: Comes xxxx
    Settlement name: quite a few language version will be implemented in 098:
    {Constantinople}Kōnstantinoúpolis
    {ConstantinopleArabic}Rūmiyyat al-Kubra
    {ConstantinopleTurkic}Kustantiniyye
    {ConstantinopleRus}Miklagarðr
    CoA: xxx
    Province name: xxx.
    Resources: xxx. Main trading resources in the Venetian times: grain, vine, salt, wood & pitch.
    Fertility: xxx.
    Initial size: the peakin in 12th century: Chris Wickham 100k, Colin McEvedy: 30k. So the size for v. 92 was too big but it has been brought back into reality for the verion 0.97.
    Initial buildings: xxx

    Obviously, there's a number of nice maps, pictures and videos for Constantinopole. For instance:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Camera here:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Or this one:


    Corinth (Corinth, Corinth_Province)
    PT: Comes xxxx
    Settlement name: Korinthos.
    CoA: xxx
    Province name: Morea. First time appears in a Byzantine chronicle in 10c. so it seems right for all cultures.
    Resources: xxx. Main trading resources in the Venetian times: grain, vine, salt, wood & pitch.
    Fertility: xxx.
    Initial size:
    Initial buildings: average. Corinth was an important Byzantine city, but Morea was built up with the castles after 1208 or so.

    Arta (Arta, Arta_Province)
    PT: Comes xxxx
    Settlement name: Arta. Maybe in the late MA it would be moved to Jannina?
    CoA: xxx
    Province name: Epirus.
    Resources: few.
    Fertility: low.
    Initial size: small.
    Initial buildings: small.

    Dyrrachium (Durazzo, Durazzo_Province)
    PT: Comes xxxx
    Settlement name: well, various languages were used. Dyrrachion looks initially, it'd change to Durazzo if taken by a Catholic faction.
    CoA: not checked.
    Province name: Albania. Seems very good choice since the Albanoi appear in the Byzantine sources throughout whole Middle Ages, with the crowning period of the Skanderbeg rule.
    Resources: actually rather few were exploited in the MA. Wood.
    Fertility: low.
    Initial size: castle (with little outlook for growth).
    Initial buildings: some.

    Chandax (xxx, xxx_Province)
    PT: Comes xxxx
    Settlement name: Chandax. If taken by the Muslims: ....
    CoA: xxx
    Province name: xxx.
    Resources: xxx. Main trading resources in the Venetian times: grain, vine, salt, wood & pitch.
    Fertility: xxx.
    Initial size: xxx
    Initial buildings: xxx
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 15, 2022 at 06:55 AM.

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Byzantium

    IV. Faction specific features

    The Crown of Byzantium is discussed in this entry (and has a new pics).

    The Offices have not been re-viewed and re-made after SSHIP 0.92. One may expect many inconsistencies.

    Byzantium has access to quite a few buildings that are not available to every faction, or sometimes earlier than the other factions (eg. Alchemist Lab).
    (note: this might be important for getting certain traits - usually the Greeks will have more traits, good and bad).
    In the 0.98 the orthodox church line will have a revamped graphic of the buildings:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Greek Blood: not checked yet.

    Specific traits: not checked.
    Proposals from Georgios:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Giorgios View Post
    Another offhand couple of Byzantine suggestions for traits- and descriptions.

    Firstly, an trait system covering identity, that all Byzantine characters would have. I'm not sure if it's possible to make these more or less common?

    1. Romios. This man is proud to call himself a Roman, as generations of his ancestors have done before him. +1 piety, +1 loyalty. (COMMON TRAIT)
    2. Ethnos. This man is either a first or second generation immigrant to Rōmanía, and has not yet fully integrated. His military talents, however, make him respected by the imperial court- if not by xenophobic provincial Romans. +1 Command, -10% public order. (RARE TRAIT, ONLY FOR ADOPTED/MARRIED/RECRUITED GENERALS)
    3. Hellene. This man has begun to embrace the wisdom of the ancient Greeks in a way that is not quite proper. Who knows how close to heresy these pagan ideals could take him? -1 Piety, -10% public order, but with the same positive bonuses as the preexisting "Scholar" trait. (RARE TRAIT)

    Secondly, a replacement of the "Of Greek Blood" trait with...

    Komnenian. This individual is a descendent of the Emperor Alexios I Komnenos. In a new development in Roman history, he and men like him believe this gives him a God-given right to the crown... -1 Loyalty, +10% public order.

    Names of characters: reviewed made by Giorgios will be introduced.

    Faction-related events and scripts:
    * The Paleologian Renaissance - see here.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; October 27, 2021 at 11:34 AM.

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Byzantium

    V. Starting position in 1132 (incl. settlements, armies, generals, traits, political situation)

    to be developed in due course

    The famous Manuel Komnenos is still a child but he's in the game. If the player is lucky, he may get a pretty good general after some time:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; November 23, 2021 at 03:21 PM.

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Byzantium

    VI. Units

    New units made by nicossaiz replaced the former units in the v. 098, thanks to the @kostic. New models, names and descriptions. In the future the roster will be reviewed and somehow adjusted.

    Some proposals are to be found in this entry.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; October 25, 2021 at 03:17 PM.

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Byzantium

    VIII. Reserve

    to be used if needed

  8. #8

    Default Re: Bugs Reports & Technical Help

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    On one hand, this might be very historical. On the other, it opens the world to Byzantines, what is less historical.
    I think we need to nerf the Byzzantines, while keeping low-probability of jihads.
    But it'd interesting to see how many players also noticed that there're few jihads on the Polis?
    I think the Byzantines are alright unless you folks want to steer them to absolutely crumble as they did in real life, faction composition wise. It just so happens that they were having a string of decent emperors during the time period you folks choose.

    It might be a good idea to refrain giving them a crown just for conquering a few coastal provinces; it's too easy even for beginners. In some of my games, the Byzantines manage to beat the Seljuks but struggle in the Balkans. Therefore, conquering Anatolia and the Balkan peninsula sans Croatia might be a good prerequisite for obtaining the crown.

    Another solution is to boost the Rum Seljuks so they are much more difficult to conquer. If I recall correctly, the Byzantines relied on Anatolian themes a lot for manpower in real life. It would be great if there's a garrison or troop spawning script for the Seljuks.

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Bugs Reports & Technical Help

    Quote Originally Posted by officialdeo View Post
    I think the Byzantines are alright unless you folks want to steer them to absolutely crumble as they did in real life, faction composition wise. It just so happens that they were having a string of decent emperors during the time period you folks choose.
    True. This is something that makes ERE very boring for me: there're at the peak of their power, and for a long time. Another year would be much better to play as Byzzies: vanilla 1080 or the Broken Crescent 1174.

    Quote Originally Posted by officialdeo View Post
    It might be a good idea to refrain giving them a crown just for conquering a few coastal provinces; it's too easy even for beginners. In some of my games, the Byzantines manage to beat the Seljuks but struggle in the Balkans. Therefore, conquering Anatolia and the Balkan peninsula sans Croatia might be a good prerequisite for obtaining the crown.

    Another solution is to boost the Rum Seljuks so they are much more difficult to conquer. If I recall correctly, the Byzantines relied on Anatolian themes a lot for manpower in real life. It would be great if there's a garrison or troop spawning script for the Seljuks.
    All this brings the question of historicity. Is it more historical than giving the ERE more difficulties with keeping the realm together? but this is something to be thought in the future, yes.
    And the crown will be with 16 provinces - the highest number among all factions, but still within the code logic (otherwise there'd be separate triggers needed, a hell of work).

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    nikossaiz's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Goals/Work to be done for futur release

    [IMG]

    the new banners, mind that all are scoutatoi sword, the same unit.each major unit will have 4 variation ec guard units and cavalry that will have only 1. ΔΡ letters stands for δρουγος, drougos, the equevallent of legion.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; March 25, 2020 at 11:06 AM.

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    nikossaiz's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: [F] - Byzantium

    the ERE roster

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    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Regarding restricting the Byzantines, I think there's fundamentally here a bit of a misunderstanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the Empire, which didn't (certainly before 1204) really resemble any other Christian kingdom in how it operated.

    Legitimacy, in Romanía, depended on primarily on the acclamation of the populace of Constantinople, not on blood, military ability, or whatever- this is a direct continuation of the republican pretences of Augustus, where the Emperor derived his power from the consent of the Roman people. The "Crown" for Byzantium should therefore be granted to the holder of the imperial capital, but with certain conditions.

    Firstly, no Emperor, aside from Justinian, ever survived serious popular discontent in the capital. I'd therefore suggest that, should happiness in Constantinople ever dip below 100%, the Crown title would become in doubt. This would then spark provincial revolts- for these, see below. And there should be a significant happiness bonus for the Emperor being present in the capital, and penalty for his absence. And to further demonstrate the centrality of the capital, is there a mechanism to make the loss of Constantinople an instant faction destruction for the Byzantines? Probably not, but if this could be done, it would be worth investigating.

    Romanía's direct descent from the old Roman Republic meant that, theoretically, any capable man could become the most important in the state, and this led to plenty of generals being more than capable of revolt throughout imperial history. This changed slightly in the Komnenian period, where revolts did tend to be family affairs, but I'd argue this is probably down to the sheer size of the extended Komnenian family. I'd therefore suggest that Byzantine generals should be considerably less loyal than those of other factions- for the Byzantine player, sending any general other than the Emperor and his closest confidantes out on campaign with large armies should be a serious risk. And this, of course, provides serious risks of its own- without the Emperor residing in the capital, the happiness penalties start to bite.

  13. #13
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Giorgios View Post
    Regarding restricting the Byzantines, I think there's fundamentally here a bit of a misunderstanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the Empire, which didn't (certainly before 1204) really resemble any other Christian kingdom in how it operated.

    Legitimacy, in Romanía, depended on primarily on the acclamation of the populace of Constantinople, not on blood, military ability, or whatever- this is a direct continuation of the republican pretences of Augustus, where the Emperor derived his power from the consent of the Roman people. The "Crown" for Byzantium should therefore be granted to the holder of the imperial capital, but with certain conditions.

    Firstly, no Emperor, aside from Justinian, ever survived serious popular discontent in the capital. I'd therefore suggest that, should happiness in Constantinople ever dip below 100%, the Crown title would become in doubt. This would then spark provincial revolts- for these, see below. And there should be a significant happiness bonus for the Emperor being present in the capital, and penalty for his absence. And to further demonstrate the centrality of the capital, is there a mechanism to make the loss of Constantinople an instant faction destruction for the Byzantines? Probably not, but if this could be done, it would be worth investigating.

    Romanía's direct descent from the old Roman Republic meant that, theoretically, any capable man could become the most important in the state, and this led to plenty of generals being more than capable of revolt throughout imperial history. This changed slightly in the Komnenian period, where revolts did tend to be family affairs, but I'd argue this is probably down to the sheer size of the extended Komnenian family. I'd therefore suggest that Byzantine generals should be considerably less loyal than those of other factions- for the Byzantine player, sending any general other than the Emperor and his closest confidantes out on campaign with large armies should be a serious risk. And this, of course, provides serious risks of its own- without the Emperor residing in the capital, the happiness penalties start to bite.
    As you know, Georgios, I mostly agree :-)

    I've got even notes form Kalldelis:
    "* idea of Byzantium as a rigid imperial theocracy is a construct of Western historians since the Enlightenment* in Romania the notion of divine kingship emerged as a way to disguise the inherent vulnerability of each regime
    * the LEGITIMACY of the emperors was not predicated on an absolute right to the throne but ON the POPULARITY of individual emperors, whose grip on power was tenuous despite the stability of the imperial institution itself
    * the rebellions were not aberrations, but an essential part of the functioning of the republican monarchy"

    "And there should be a significant happiness bonus for the Emperor being present in the capital, and penalty for his absence." - if you'd write a script for such situation, I'd add it to the code. It must be possible (maybe easy?) since the EBII has it for the Ptolemaioi.

    "And to further demonstrate the centrality of the capital, is there a mechanism to make the loss of Constantinople an instant faction destruction for the Byzantines? Probably not, but if this could be done, it would be worth investigating." - I don't think it'd be historical since after 1204 the Byzantines manged to survive without Polish for almost 60 years (not to mention the case of Trapezous)

    " I'd therefore suggest that Byzantine generals should be considerably less loyal than those of other factions- for the Byzantine player, sending any general other than the Emperor and his closest confidantes out on campaign with large armies should be a serious risk." - this is reflected in the traits and will be even more when I get to reviewing the career system of the ERE. I've left it untouched yet and I don't know what's happening there.

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    Default Re: [Release] SSHIP v0.9.6 downloadable - 6th of December 2019

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    As you know, Georgios, I mostly agree :-)

    I've got even notes form Kalldelis:
    "* idea of Byzantium as a rigid imperial theocracy is a construct of Western historians since the Enlightenment* in Romania the notion of divine kingship emerged as a way to disguise the inherent vulnerability of each regime
    * the LEGITIMACY of the emperors was not predicated on an absolute right to the throne but ON the POPULARITY of individual emperors, whose grip on power was tenuous despite the stability of the imperial institution itself
    * the rebellions were not aberrations, but an essential part of the functioning of the republican monarchy"
    Couldn't put it better myself! These are the arguments of "The Byzantine Republic"- have you got round to reading "Romanland" yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    if you'd write a script for such situation, I'd add it to the code. It must be possible (maybe easy?) since the EBII has it for the Ptolemaioi.
    This is where, I'm afraid, I'm something of a "backseat modder"- I don't have the skills to do that. Sorry!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    I don't think it'd be historical since after 1204 the Byzantines manged to survive without Polish for almost 60 years (not to mention the case of Trapezous)
    I'm not neccesarily disagreeing with you- but I wonder if Nikaia, Epiros, Trebizond et al are best represented in Medieval II's mechanics as rebels, albeit with large armies? Certainly they were ethnic Romans, but I personally see the direct imperial state of Augustus, Justinian and Basil II as ending in 1204, with an argument about its revival in 1261, or whether the 1261-1453 polity is best understood as a successor state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    this is reflected in the traits and will be even more when I get to reviewing the career system of the ERE. I've left it untouched yet and I don't know what's happening there.
    Understood- I look forward to seeing what you come up with!

  15. #15
    Giorgios's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [F] - BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    However, what I have done is put together a new faction introduction to the Empire... I hope this is of use!

    {IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_BYZANTIUM_TITLE}The Polity of the Romans
    {IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_BYZANTIUM_DESCR}Nearly a thousand years after the proclamation of citizenship for all free men of the Roman Empire, the world is transformed- but the Roman people survive. \n\ “Romania”, their state is called- “Romanland”, still ruled, as it has been for eight centuries from the great imperial city on the Bosphorus. Whilst the city’s ancient name, Byzantion, is remembered by its educated elites, to the great mass of the Roman people, their capital is Konstantinoupolis, or simply “the City”. For the capital of Romania remains the inviolate Queen of Cities- largest, richest, and most opulent metropolis of Christendom. \n\That is not to say the Roman world is all it was. Within living memory, the collapse of Romania herself was all too real a prospect, with one city after another falling to the barbarians, and ruler after ruler being replaced in a desperate struggle for survival. But now, after a titanic effort, Romania is stable. Her European provinces are secured, and in Asia, a strong start has been made on recovering lost territories, even if the assistance of the Frankish barbarians was required. Current Emperor Ioannes II Komnenos is a dynamic and capable monarch, in the prime of his life- under him, there is a real chance of restoring Romania to its status as indisputably the greatest state in Christendom. \n\HISTORICAL NOTE- The grant of citizenship to all free men of the Roman Empire in 212 accelerated ongoing processes of Romanisation, and transformed, by the fourth century, the multi-ethnic Roman Empire of the classical era into the far more cohesive state of Romania, with a strong collective Roman identity across the Mediterranean, amongst Greek and Latin speakers alike. The coming of Christianity and the foundation of Constantinople as a new imperial capital in the 320s further set the stone on this transformation. \n\Though the state we know today as “Byzantium” endured many setbacks and failures, most notably in the permanent destruction of her global superpower status in the seventh century, Roman ideals and institutions continued regardless. The twelfth century would be the last great flowering of imperial power, but the Roman people continued to survive, albeit often under Latin or Turkish occupation, into the 20th century. Even the Greek language, puzzled Enlightenment travellers noted, had come to be known as “Romaic”. The rise of the modern Greek nation state began to put an end to ideas of Romanness, but even today, there are small communities of Greek speakers who continue to call themselves “Roman”.

  16. #16
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [F] - BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    This is a very good idea! I've cut-and-pasted it into the relevant file. Thanks!

  17. #17
    nikossaiz's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Goals/Work to be done for futur release

    [IMG]


    [IMG]

    hello guys, these are latinika tagmata. former latinikon. They were more like latin pronoiars, owners of roman land than mercenaries. Some they have also byzantine armaments. and with this unit i finish the roster.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; March 26, 2020 at 11:05 AM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: [F] - BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    @nikkosaiz great work!!! But a question about your last images ( latinikon) when they appear in the game? And are they european mercenaries for romans?
    They wear great helmets and it is from 13 th century... Is possible mixed with other types of helmets? (Different armour upgrades...)Like nasal helmets, norman mask helmets...i think that is pretty regular that all the unit wear the same great helmet
    Last edited by j.a.luna; March 26, 2020 at 11:59 AM.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: [F] - BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    One question about professional roman infantry in the game, as the scoutatoi units, they should have the ability of shield wall in the game? They used a similar roman tactic of testudo called fulkum... So maybe this professional infantry could know this ancient roman tactics for figth against their enemies.
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  20. #20
    nikossaiz's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: [F] - BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    [IMG]

    updated latinika tagmata. the great helmets will be the upgrade model . latinika tagmata consisted of western people that were granded land in the roman teritory, same as the pronoiars. so they were no mercs.

    giving formations like fulcum shieldwall and the like i think is extremely bagy . otherwise i would give them a javelin to throw before engaging into battle , or have them with both spear and swords like it was the case with scoutatoi.

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