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Thread: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

  1. #141

    Default Re: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    I think Eastern Romans should have "Menaulatoi Pikemen' at the beggining of the game, maybe low available and only in fortress but in the byzantine armies they were pretty present in battles... And of course in s.XII.
    Here some information and one explanatory image about Roman tactics and their composition, they were the evolution of the ancient Roman legions!

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Training in the battlefield at the end of the 10th century AD. / Battlefield formation in the late 10th century.

    In the military manual "Praecepta Militaria" by Nicephorus II Phocas written about the year 965 AD. it was about the disposition and tactics, above all, of the Eastern Roman infantry. The manual had the name of “Στρατηγικὴ ἔκθεσις καὶ σύνταξις Νικηφόρου δεσπότου” = Strategikè ékthesis kaì syntaxis Nikephórou despótou ("Presentation and Composition for the War of Lord Nicephorus).


    The manual consists of six chapters and presents the Eastern Roman army of the 10th century AD. and contains several novel aspects not covered in other Roman imperial military manuals, such as the exact exposition of the formation and use of the cataphract wedge, the new mixed infantry brigade (taxiarchia), the proper formation of intervals between units and how they should be guarded and the use of the menavlon spear. The treaty generally emphasizes the practical aspects of warfare: various operational scenarios are discussed, as well as the establishment of camps, reconnaissance, and the use of spies. The religious ceremonies of the army are also emphasized, reflecting the emperor's own religious zeal.


    The infantry formation described in the Praecepta Militaria is a hollow square with purposely placed intervals in the heavy infantry lines so that cavalry can move in or out of the square. The intervals were protected by light infantry such as javelin throwers, slingers, and archers, who would attack and disrupt approaching enemies to allow time for the Hoplitai heavy infantry to form up properly. Some of the tactical changes Nicephorus introduced to improve the infantry's ability to defend against heavy cavalry are detailed in the manual. One of the most significant changes was to place the pikemen (menavlatoi) or heavy spearmen (kontarati) in the front ranks and in the center as reserve, the light infantry, the archers behind the hoplitai and all ensuring that the cavalry could be organized. on time in formation. The infantry square was to be 7 or 8 men deep, with 3 hoplitai or peltastas carrying long spears (kontarion) forming a phalanx, then 2 or 3 toxotai archers, and finally 1 or 2 hoplitai or peltastai to cover possible Drops in the front frame areas.


    The eastern Roman phalanx was used as a spear projection in frontal assaults. The Eastern Romans included, as I have commented, the support of archers (toxotai) on the flanks or behind the spearmen to soften the enemy onslaught. It was used from the 6th to the 13th century AD. They were used putting the menavlati (pikemen) in front and the kontarati (spearmen) behind and flanking (or behind the first rows of spearmen) the archers (toxotes), and light skirmishers with slings and javelins.
    ----------------------------


    Attachment 369338

    Here is an interesting video about the reforms of the Byzantine army from the 11th century onwards, as you can see @Jurand and sship team this refutes the fact that the "menaulatoi pikemen" were frequently used to stop cavalry charges, along with the spearmen, toxotais and javelineros. That is why I think it is convenient that from the beginning of the game they should be recruitable for the Byzantines since it is historically correct...


    -Currently I think they are not available in the game and I don't know why


    - I know that the Byzantine army can be very OP and perhaps due to the balance of the game these Byzantine pikemen were omitted but you should reflect what was the case, perhaps limiting them in their recruitment and high cost (due to their disciplined training) could be feasible.
    For example, the Menaulatoi pikemen could be recruited from the "Fortress" level in the drill square (high level of quarters), limited in number (perhaps 2 units maximum) and with a high recruitment and maintenance cost.


    I leave you the very interesting video and tell me your opinions, please, I would like to see them in the next version...



    https://youtu.be/25Xo2W3QYBI?si=oF86e4diKqVsB-H_
    Last edited by j.a.luna; September 04, 2023 at 08:12 PM.
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  2. #142

    Default Re: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    I think a unit with long spears is appropriate, renaissance-style pikes are not. If the Byzantines had an army that looked more like the Swiss they probably wouldn't have taken so many losses throughout the time period of this mod.
    FREE THE NIPPLE!!!

  3. #143

    Default Re: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaytaninc View Post
    I think a unit with long spears is appropriate, renaissance-style pikes are not. If the Byzantines had an army that looked more like the Swiss they probably wouldn't have taken so many losses throughout the time period of this mod.
    Yes , current menaulatoi pikemen have long spears in the game but with pike formation as historically it was, they stood in front in static mode to withstand the charge with their long spears (meavlon), behind the scoutatoi and behind the toxotes and aconstistae with javelins BUT THE PROBLEM IS THEY DONT APPEAR IN CAMPAIGN, ONLY IN CUSTOM BATTLES
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  4. #144
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    Yes , current menaulatoi pikemen have long spears in the game but with pike formation as historically it was, they stood in front in static mode to withstand the charge with their long spears (meavlon), behind the scoutatoi and behind the toxotes and aconstistae with javelins BUT THE PROBLEM IS THEY DONT APPEAR IN CAMPAIGN, ONLY IN CUSTOM BATTLES
    ok, thanks j.a., this is interesting. Indeed, menaulatoi pikemen are not recruitable from the EDB. they are though in the EDU. strange. I'll make them recruitable in similar time as the pikemen in Latin Europe

  5. #145

    Default Re: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    ok, thanks j.a., this is interesting. Indeed, menaulatoi pikemen are not recruitable from the EDB. they are though in the EDU. strange. I'll make them recruitable in similar time as the pikemen in Latin Europe
    ok Jurand I also noticed that they were not in the export_desc_building but as I told you these "Byzantine pikemen" were not really pikemen like the Europeans, they were infantry with long spears that stopped cavalry charges and from the 10th century they were used in the Byzantine armies really, to reflect it in the game but for balance you could limit their recruitment to high levels of settlements (only fortress and citadels with max 2 unit per settlement maybe with low replacement)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menaulion

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  6. #146

    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    Hi im curious if there are plans to add the equivelent of pronia infantry in the mod
    byzantines really lack in mid range AP options something that shows later in game

  7. #147
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: UNITS ROSTERS discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by yp364 View Post
    Hi im curious if there are plans to add the equivelent of pronia infantry in the mod
    byzantines really lack in mid range AP options something that shows later in game
    At some point the Byzantines will be modified. Last time it was done by nicossaiz and the current structure is his.

  8. #148

    Default Re: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    i have a proposition , why not adding senate building in constantinople

  9. #149
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    Quote Originally Posted by MoorsihSultan View Post
    i have a proposition , why not adding senate building in constantinople
    clutter of buildings - already too many. but maybe at some point in the future it could be done in the City Hall line. Not in the pipeline atm.

  10. #150

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Anyone can give me tips for a byzantine campaign? I have tried on very very hard but no luck. I'm not aggrssive at all, I always release prisoners, build churches wherever I can, I even aid the Serbs in battle to take Skodra. I managed to peace out the Rum Sejuks, but literally everyone else hates me no matter what I do (or don't do in my occasion). The Serbs betray me every time, then the Kipchaks follow them. I know the Serbs have as an objective to attack me, but everyone else doesn;t seems to care what I do diplomatically I also managed to ally the the Kievan Rus but they don't come to my aid and our relations become poor with no reason. The only settlement I take is Sinope and sometimes Trapezous, which are considered core provinces so I shouldn't suffer from aggressive expansion impact. Even those settlements I capture them only after I have a peace with the Rum Seljuks. So am I missing something in diplomacy?

  11. #151

    Default Re: SSHIP - General Discussion

    Byzantines are the largest, strongest faction and they are hated for that reason. You are big, rich and alone. If you would lose some cities and fall lower than the 3 place in the faction score, you will be perceived smaller threat, and maybe you will find some friendly factions. In general, the three big factions have a difficult start in this regard - Byz, HRE and Moors, otherwise the player's life is too easy (boring), especially Byzantines are very powerful in the beginning.
    If you lose some cities and have to start recovering the empire, that's where the fun starts.

  12. #152

    Default Re: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    Yes I undestand that I start big, that's why I follow the diplomacy guide. I don't trespass, I release prisoners and take only one or two core rebel settlements after I have peace. But taking core provinces back seems to affect my reputation while in the in-game texts is tays that you don't get a penalty for that. Ilike to play according to the diplomacy guide and my playstyle fits with the slow expansion logic, I'm not agressive in every TW game. I guess I will ignore the diplomacy guide since no matter what I do I'm hated because I am big. It's curious because with Pisa I start with amiable relations or the Rus with good, and by taking Sinope I fall to poor. In the meantime Serbia takes control of the majority of the Balkans and noone cares.

  13. #153

    Default Re: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    There are at least 2 features that only work on very hard level - "tall poppy" and changed ai labels to more aggressive if you are big. These obviously makes player life difficult. On top of it there is a chance of civil war when your FL dies . Not being aggressive will not help you much, but I wouldn't completely ignore the reputation, because if it's very high you will be more or less tolerated, so some diplomacy will be possible.

  14. #154

    Default Re: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    HISTORICAL PICTURE ABOUT A ROMAN "GRENADIER" AND A SIPHONARIOS
    Click image for larger version. 

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    During a training an Eastern Roman soldier throws a cheirovomvída (χειροβομβίδα), a kind of Greek fire hand grenade, and a siphonarios soldier uses his cheirosiphon or cheirosiphona (χειροσύφωνα), which was a portable pressurized siphon with a bronze mouth that released streams of Greek fire as a flamethrower. The cheirovomvída was made of ceramic or baked clay that was filled inside with Greek fire and a wick was placed on top so that it would explode when the fire from the wick reached the interior where the flammable mixture was. As a curiosity, note that despite the fact that it was a weapon intended to explode, the Eastern Romans frequently decorate the grenades with different reliefs. The Eastern Romans not only used Greek fire against their enemies at the sea with the famous strepton (στρεπτόν) attached to the prow of dromons, but they did so in the open field and even to take enemy towers and fortresses.


    Historical information with links:

    https://www.academia.edu/78925296/_T...ton_Oaks_2010_



    https://www.academia.edu/78934749/_P..._Library_1995_



    https://www.academia.edu/44066338/_G...in_Hewes_2006_


    https://www.academia.edu/44120937/_G...6D7f64Ge44q4yc



    Interesting information and image about a possible "grenadier" or naffatun for byzantines... Maybe kostic could make them possible
    Last edited by j.a.luna; December 12, 2023 at 01:48 PM.
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  15. #155
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    Interesting indeed. When would this unit appear? For the moment, one more place should be freed. There are currently 4 units ready for replacement in the EDU. These are reserved for the 4 types of garrison units that I have to create (spearmen, swordsmen, archers and crossbowmen).
    Other units are under discussion as to their usefulness. May be later...

  16. #156

    Default Re: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    Quote Originally Posted by kostic View Post
    Interesting indeed. When would this unit appear? For the moment, one more place should be freed. There are currently 4 units ready for replacement in the EDU. These are reserved for the 4 types of garrison units that I have to create (spearmen, swordsmen, archers and crossbowmen).
    Other units are under discussion as to their usefulness. May be later...
    This unit should be available from the beginning of the game, since in 1132 the Byzantines had been using Greek fire in various ways (including hand grenades) for hundreds of years.Therefore my proposal is that it be included for the Byzantines just as the "Naffatun" unit is included for the Muslims, to make it more special it could be available only at the highest levels of the chain building (alchemist lab) with a high cost and low replacement (similar to its contemporary unit "Siphonatores"), the only thing Kostic would have to do is give it its Byzantine style touch-up, maybe you could take another similar model unit and duplicate it but with hand grenades...


    If you need help with unit proposals, as you know, I have many and I can offer my little help.


    On the other hand, these days I hope to update my work on descriptions of units and buildings for the next version. If you know of any unit that is going to be eliminated or completely modified, tell me so as not to do the work in vain and not create new texts about that unit. /building.


    Cheers!
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  17. #157
    nikossaiz's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    Hello, hope you are all good and well.

    During the medieval period, there were no pronoiarioi who fought on foot as a distinct group or unit. Allied units, (simachika tagmata ) consisting of Serbs, Georgians, and various allied tribes, could easily serve as the equivalent of foot soldiers the calibre of "foot pronoiarioi", as they were more easily employable and more numerous. Trying to discover units solely to cover every weakness of each faction negates the purpose of the mod to stay close to historical truth in my opinion.

  18. #158
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    Hi Nikossaiz, it’s been a long time since you posted on the forum! Welcome to you !


    I'm not sure I understand your last message; I don't see a unit called Pronoiarii on foot???

  19. #159
    nikossaiz's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    somebody posted that the byzantine roster needs of an equavalent of a unit quality as "proniarii on foot" , a unit that didnt exist nor is needed in my opinion.

  20. #160

    Default Re: BYZANTIUM (Politeia ton Rhomaion)

    Originally Posted by j.a.luna
    Yes , current menaulatoi pikemen have long spears in the game but with pike formation as historically it was, they stood in front in static mode to withstand the charge with their long spears (meavlon), behind the scoutatoi and behind the toxotes and aconstistae with javelins BUT THE PROBLEM IS THEY DONT APPEAR IN CAMPAIGN, ONLY IN CUSTOM BATTLES

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    ok, thanks j.a., this is interesting. Indeed, menaulatoi pikemen are not recruitable from the EDB. they are though in the EDU. strange. I'll make them recruitable in similar time as the pikemen in Latin Europe
    Hi Jurand and kostic, is possible ,finally, add the menaulatoi unit for byzantines? Currently is imposible to play with them... they need to include in EDB...
    - I know that the Byzantine army can be very OP and perhaps due to the balance of the game these Byzantine pikemen were omitted but you should reflect what was the case, perhaps limiting them in their recruitment and high cost (due to their disciplined training) could be feasible.
    For example, the Menaulatoi pikemen could be recruited from the "Fortress" level in the drill square (high level of quarters), limited in number (perhaps 2 units maximum) and with a high recruitment and maintenance cost.

    We are currently wasting a unit that is in the game but does not appear in the campaign...
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