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Thread: [F] - SERBIA

  1. #1
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - SERBIA

    I. General information

    This thread is meant to gather all information about the faction and to conduct discussions on the faction related issues.

    The entries should be developed by both the SSHIP team and the interested players.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 13, 2020 at 06:57 AM.

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Serbia

    II. Strategy & gameplay


    To be developed in due course. If you've played the game with this faction and have insights how to help fellow players, please write a proposal for this section.

  3. #3
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Serbia

    III. Provinces (incl. names, provincial titles, resources, map features etc.)

    The provinces that have historically been assigned to this faction are listed here - it's usually defined by the "faction_creator" in the "descr_strat.txt" file.


    A. Map features, resources
    No comments yet.

    B. Province names, settlement names, provincial titles

    Provincial titles:

    General explanations to be found in the relevant thread on the PTs.
    Catholic: I considered the use of the Hungarian term “Ispán”. However, because the title will be used also by other catholic factions, I've decided to use the Latin term "Comes".
    Orthodox, Muslim: generic "Knyaz of" and "Emir of".
    Coast of arms: have been reviewed and updated to be as historical as possible.
    Names of provinces: should be in Latin, so some adjustments are still needed - tbd.

    Severin (Wallachia; Severin_Province)
    PT: Voivode ... (Slavic and Hungarian title)CoA: not checked.
    Province name: ...
    Settlement name: in 14th century it should be Târgovişte, but in 12th century?
    Resources: ...
    Fertility: ...

    Ras (Rascia; Ras_Province)
    PT: ...
    CoA: ...
    Province name: ...
    Settlement name: correct for the 12 th century.
    Resources: ...
    Fertility: 1. Deep mountains, withouth technological or social infrastructure.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; April 23, 2020 at 04:35 AM.

  4. #4
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Serbia

    IV. Faction specific features (Crown, Offices, Bloodline, Traits, Buildings)

    The Crown of Serbia is discussed in this entry.

    The Offices are described in this thread.


    Serbia has access to some buildings that may be not available to every faction.
    (note: this might be important for getting certain traits).

    Serb Blood: not checked.

    Specific traits: not checked.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 24, 2020 at 08:14 AM.

  5. #5
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Serbia

    V. Starting position in 1132 (incl. settlements, armies, generals, traits, political situation)

    to be developed in due course

  6. #6
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Serbia

    VI. Units

    The Serbian military was under the influence from both Byzantium and the Italian area. In the later Middle Ages the armour and weapons were predominantly of the Western, Italian style, while in the iconography it features the lamellar and scale armour typical for the Greek cultural area.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 29, 2020 at 12:45 AM.

  7. #7
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Serbia

    VIII. Reserve

    to be used if needed

  8. #8

    Default Re: [F] - SERBIA

    It is difficult find information about serbian army previous 12 th century and images, but they were mainly southern slavs(so at the beginning of the game they should have the panoply of mixture of Slavs and Byzantine influence, to later westernize more ...). Furthemore i have contacted with a serbian friend that maybe he could help us.

    Some information and images than could be helpful to sship team for improve their units rosters:

    Serbia
    Pliny the Younger with his work Plinii Caecilii Secundi Historia Naturalis from the 1st century (69-75) mentions the Serbs, who lived near Cimerios, probably in the Black Sea and the Sea of ​​Azov.

    In the 2nd century (approximately 175), the Egyptian scientist Claudius Ptolemy mentioned in his Geography (book 5, 9.21) to the Serboi or Sirboi, a tribe that lived in Sarmacia, probably in the North Caucasus, next to the Lower Volga, or together To the Black Sea. Contemporaries of Ptolemy, such as Tacitus and Pliny the Elder (Naturalis Historia, VI) could also be a Serboi in the immediate vicinity of the Caucasus.

    According to the work called "De administrando Imperio", written by Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos (912-959), Balkanic Serbs who came from pagan white Serbs who lived on the other side of Turkey (name used for Hungary), in the area which they called Bojki. The neighbors of white Serbs were Great Croatia or white State and pagan Francica. Porphyrogennetos claims that after two brothers inherited Serbia (i.e. White Serbia) from their father, one of them, with half the people, marched to the Byzantine Empire (in the Balkans). For his help to the emperor Heraclius in his fights against the Avars, this establishes them established in an area of ​​the province of Macedonia, close to the current Greek city of Servia. Later, its expansion towards the north took place.

    In the Balkans, the Serbs were located in the area of ​​the Tara, Ibar, Drina and Lim rivers (in the current border area of ​​Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina), and together with surrounding southern Slavic tribes who saw the Balkans before. (in the 6th century), along with Avars. Over time, these tribes also adopted the Serbian name as their own.
    When Simeon I took the throne of Bulgaria, the Serbian territories became part of this kingdom, but the Serbs fought for their independence. Byzantium on many occasions supported the Serbs, so that they would try to create more conflict zones for them and that they would have to defend several places at the same time. In the 10th century, the Bulgarian tsar Samuel decided to appoint Prince Vladimir as governor of Zeta, this territory occupied Montenegro and Herzegovina.

    At the beginning of the 11th century, it had a few years of great splendor, it became strong on the Balkan peninsula. The Zeta principality became a nucleus of anti-Byzantine resistance, marked by certain interests. Even in the year 1,077, Prince Michael received his crown from the Pope of Rome, this was quite a provocation. Also at this time, he managed to conquer some territories of Rascia to Byzantium.

    King Bodín de Zeta, the one who made this conquest, put two zupanes in this territory to defend their interests: Vukan and Marcos. With them the Nemanja dynasty would be born. Half a century later, Zeta achieved full independence from Byzantium.
    The time of splendor came with Esteban Nemanja, known in the Orthodox Church as the Saint (Saint Simeon). Before dying he abdicated and retired to Mount Athos where his son Sava was already. Stephen asked the Byzantine emperor to found a Serbian monastery on that mountain and it was granted, so Hilandar was born.

    Just a year before he died, his son Stephen I was to succeed him, since the Serbs were much closer to the Orthodox Church.

    In 1.204, the fourth crusade took place that was going to destroy Byzantium, a fact that the Bulgarians took advantage of mainly, to strengthen themselves in the Balkan peninsula, but the Serbs were quite settled in the area and also participated in the occupation of some Byzantine territories.

    IMAGES SERBIAN ARMY
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    I hope it helps
    Last edited by j.a.luna; March 24, 2020 at 05:45 AM. Reason: Typo
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  9. #9

    Default Re: [F] - SERBIA

    I could help with army structure, if you want, and if you need help at all.

    Is mod concept still up to 17th centrury?

    'Earrly era' Serb army was heavly influenced by ERE. However due to unit limit, it can be tricky.
    Serb army throught history had good spearmen line, pronijari were a unit of nobles similar to ERE proniars (preaty much the same). Later Serb armies were much more influenced by west. Famous Serb knights were preaty much as we think of western knights. Bascinets, half plate armor (althouth also used lamelar) and so on... One other thing that can separate them, and make them as unique distinctive unit is they armor. Timur at Ankara in 1402 fought Ottomans. In that Ottoman army, there were serb vassals. Mongols described them as very brave soldiers who rescued heirs of ottomans. They were described as weilding black armor.

    So, serb spearmen should be a thing. Pronijari (early nobles). Vitezovi ( Serbian Knights).

    I dont know how much unique units you can give to serbs, but those are must in my opinion.


    Those pictures that Luna posted are preaty accurate. As you already know, they are for 'later era'.

    So if you tell me exact timeline of mod that u plan to be in future, free unit slots that could be given to serbs, etc. Maybe i could provide more info. Searching online sources for serb army is extremly problematic, especialy for 12th century. 14th century could be done via online.

  10. #10
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [F] - SERBIA

    We need something similar to the Georgian roster. And obviously it should be as close as possible to the existing Serbian roster.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Characteristics of the Georgian roster
    - strenght: heavy cavalry and good swordsmen
    - strenght: relatively varied roster
    - weakness: very low numbers, problems in gathering troops to man the settlements and the armies
    - weakness: no factional horse archers, initially no light cavalry.
    - challenge: need to rely on Mercenaries and AOR on horse archers to fight enemy HA (but there's a HA pool in Georgia of Kypchaks and Alans)
    - idea: we need to make additional opportunieties for hiring Armenian AoR Mercenaries for Georgia – this would be the way to raise the armies (and the Armenians have also very strong units all around Armenian Highlands)

    12 century (from 1132):
    Tazreuli – generals’ Bodyduards (early)
    Aznauri Cavalry – heavy cavalry (feudal, castles and cities, only Georgia faction); phased out 1200-1250
    Monaspa Lancers – heavy cavalry (weaker than Aznauri but disciplined, hardy etc.) (castles, only Georgia faction); phased out 1200-1250
    Foot Monaspa - dual purpose: armoured archers (missile 2) / swordsmen (castles, only Georgia faction); phased out 1200-1250
    Metsikovne Archers - archers (missile: 3) (castles and cities, only Georgia faction)
    Metsikovne Spearmen - using currently model „Kartlian Spearmen”, equivalent of a (better) Spear Militia (castles and cities, only Georgia faction)
    Mtieli Swordsmen - shock, little armor and disciple (available only in Georgian 2 provinces, castles and cities, for all factions) - another model
    Caucasus Hillmen - light javelins, available all around Causacus (castles and cities - or maybe mercs?, for all factions) - current model
    Hunters - light archers (missile 2), available all around Caucasus (castles and cities - or maybe mercs?, for all factions) - use the generic model.

    13 century (from 1200-1250):

    All Monaspa are being phased out 1200-1250.
    Tazreuli – generals’ Bodyduards (early)
    Aznauri Lancers – heavy cavalry, relatively numerous to make up for both units they replace, (feudal, castles and cities, only Georgia faction); phased out 1300-1350
    Msakhureuli Light Cavalry - light shock cavalry (early professional, castles, Georgia everywhere, but AoR for all factions in 2 Georgian provinces); phased out 1300-1350
    Msakhureuli Swordsmen – similar to Light Men at Arms, (early professional, castles, Georgia everywhere, but AoR for all factions in 2 Georgian provinces);
    Msakhureuli Spearmen – similar to Spearmen Seargants, (early professional, castles, Georgia everywhere, but AoR for all factions in 2 Georgian provinces);
    Metsikovne Archers - continues, more numerous
    Metsikovne Spearmen – continues
    Mtieli Swordsmen – continues
    Caucasus Hillmen- continues
    Chukhchi - elite, rare, only in the citadels (early professional, castles, only Georgia faction) - current Khevsur Heavy Swordsmen
    Urban Crossbow Militia - generic
    Svanian Hunters - good light archers (missile 4, available only in 2 Georgian provinces, castles and cities - or maybe mercs?, for all factions)
    Hunters - continues, phased out 1300-1350

    14 century (after 1300-1350):

    Tazreuli – generals’ Bodyduards (late)
    Eristavi Retainers – late feudal heavy cavalry (feudal, castles and cities, only Georgia faction);
    Aznauri Lancers – continues
    Msakhureuli Cavalry – medium shock cavalry (professional, castles, Georgia everywhere, but AoR for all factions in 2 Georgian provinces);
    Tazreuli Macemen – elite heavy infantry (castles, only Georgia faction);
    Msakhureuli Swordsmen – continues
    Msakhureuli Spearmen – continues
    Metsikovne Archers - continues
    Metsikovne Spearmen – continues
    Mtieli Swordsmen – continues
    Caucasus Hillmen- continues
    Chukhchi - continues, in bigger numbers
    Gasmuli - crossbowmen
    Svanian Hunters – continues
    Pikemen - generic (or is it ahistorical?)
    Hand Gunners - generic (or is it ahistorical?) Arquebusiers - generic (or is it ahistorical?)
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 25, 2020 at 06:02 AM.

  11. #11
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [F] - SERBIA

    Furthermore, the Tsardoms mod has very friendly policy towards using their units so the roster could be adjusted to make use of their fantastic work.

  12. #12
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [F] - SERBIA

    But only for a later period
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  13. #13

    Default Re: [F] - SERBIA

    I know Serbia is still a WIP, but I hope the team don't mind my pitching two cents in.

    My first impression looking at territorial ambition is that we players are supposed to simulate the zenith of the Kingdom of Serbia during the reign of Stefan Dusan. However at the start of the game we only possess Rascia, and that castle is a dead end, potential wise. Hence the only way to expand is towards the Adriatic, and the best settlement we will have for quite a while is obviously Ragusa.

    Here is the conundrum. Ragusa can be upgraded into a minor city with the help of a 4-chivalry points or more governor. It's enticing to set Ragusa as the capital city, and start competing with Italian factions for rich coastal cities to support a standing army before taking on the Romans. It is a far cry from being a feudal, hinterland kingdom. I don't know if it's the team's intention, but it seems to me that the best way to play as Serbia is by not being Serbian; I'm practically playing a culturally Dalmatian faction with Serbian flavour.

    In any case, I had a lot of fun playing this faction. Looking forward to a more polished Serbia.

  14. #14
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [F] - SERBIA

    This is the major problem with this faction. Serbia begins in the lat 12th century and gets its status only in mid-14th. Actually Bulgaria should have been on the map, but it had been decided otherwise, and we've got a limited number of faction slots. So it's like this and I imagine that any player will play like you.
    There're few examples of similar problems - Lithuania was not there for another century, Pisa was superseded by Genoa already in late 13th century, Norway shouldn't perhaps get to the play as a faction etc. But choices were made in the past and we carry on.

  15. #15

    Default Re: [F] - SERBIA

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    This is the major problem with this faction. Serbia begins in the lat 12th century and gets its status only in mid-14th. Actually Bulgaria should have been on the map, but it had been decided otherwise, and we've got a limited number of faction slots. So it's like this and I imagine that any player will play like you.
    There're few examples of similar problems - Lithuania was not there for another century, Pisa was superseded by Genoa already in late 13th century, Norway shouldn't perhaps get to the play as a faction etc. But choices were made in the past and we carry on.
    Yes, but I as the player am also part of the problem if we're talking about historicity. I can't wait 150 turns basically just turtling and doing the odd skirmish while waiting for the Romans to crumble apart. It serves as an interesting alternate history anyway; personally I am happy with the team's work of a roughly accurate representation of the 12th century and plausible future options.

    You can see that in my other post, I basically created a maritime empire fueled by, guess what, Italian ranged units and Varangians. I have never touched the Pronoiarii even once

  16. #16
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [F] - SERBIA

    The stratiotes pronoiarioi are currently recruitable by ERE and Serbia in game.
    From nikossaiz:
    The granting of pronoia (from eis pronoian - 'to administer'), beginning in the reign of Alexios I, was to become a notable element in the military infrastructure towards the end of the Komnenian period, though it became even more important subsequently. The pronoia was essentially the grant of rights to receive revenue from a particular area of land, a form of tax farming, and it was held in return for military obligations. Pronoia holders, whether native or of foreign origin, lived locally in their holding and collected their income at source, eliminating the cost of an unnecessary level of bureaucracy, also the pronoia ensured an income for the soldier whether or not he was on active campaign or on garrison duty. The pronoiar also had a direct interest in keeping his 'fief' productive and in defending the locality in which it was situated. The local people who worked the land under a pronoiar also rendered labour services, making the system semi-feudal, though the pronoia was not strictly hereditary. It is very probable that, like the landowning magnates, pronoiars had armed retinues and that the military service that this class provided was not limited to the pronoiar himself.Though Manuel I extended the provision of pronoia, payment of troops by cash remained the norm.
    However, I'm wondering how accurate it is regarding Serbia?
    From achilles-91 (a few posts above):
    'Early era' Serb army was heavly influenced by ERE. However due to unit limit, it can be tricky.
    Serb army throught history had good spearmen line, pronijari were a unit of nobles similar to ERE proniars (preaty much the same).
    Anyone to confirm that this unit is right or not for Serbia? If it's inaccurate, what kind of other medium cavalry unit could replace them for Serbia?
    Thanks in advance.

    Another question: based on the real history, should Serbia start as a vassal of the ERE? Actually, Serbia became really independant from the ERE under the Nemanjić dynasty (2nd half of the 12th century).
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; May 26, 2020 at 02:20 AM.
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  17. #17
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [F] - SERBIA

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Another question: based on the real history, should Serbia start as a vassal of the ERE? Actually, Serbia became really independant from the ERE under the Nemanjić dynasty (2nd half of the 12th century).
    Is it possible in the Medieval 2 engine to make some faction(s) to be vassals of other faction(s) at the beginning of the game?
    If yes, then Portugal is another candidate.

  18. #18
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [F] - SERBIA

    Another point to consider is how the AI respect such "alliance". If there's no chance that it breaks it soon or later, it might be better to not do it for the game play

    Btw, I'm also looking for CoA used in Serbia during the 12-13th centuries

    Edit 1: I've found these:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Not sure how they are accurate

    Edit2: an interesting article about the serbian heraldry: http://www.czipm.org/cluj-workshop.html
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; May 26, 2020 at 07:33 AM.
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  19. #19
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: [F] - SERBIA

    What I've found so far:


    Serbian Cross: Modified arms of Palaiologos dynasty (ERE), obviously not used officially before the 14th century.


    Triballia CoA: not used before the 15th century.


    Vojislavljević dynasty coat of arms (1034 - 1186).


    Nemanjić dynasty coat of arms (1166 - 1371 / Emperor from 1346)


    House of Branković: ruled Serbia from 1427 to 1459.


    House of Dejanović: 1346 - 1395


    House of Orlović: from 1320


    Lazarević dynasty: ruled Serbia from 1371 to 1389.


    House of Mrnjavčević: 1365 - 1395


    Vojislavljević and Nemanjić dynasties CoA can be used easily. As others are more recent, I'm not so sure



    Last edited by Lifthrasir; May 28, 2020 at 06:14 AM.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: [F] - SERBIA

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Another point to consider is how the AI respect such "alliance". If there's no chance that it breaks it soon or later, it might be better to not do it for the game play

    Btw, I'm also looking for CoA used in Serbia during the 12-13th centuries

    Edit 1: I've found these:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Not sure how they are accurate

    Edit2: an interesting article about the serbian heraldry: http://www.czipm.org/cluj-workshop.html
    AI Serbs usually try to break the alliance when they see the Romans begin to crumble militarily (usually when Attaleia and Nicaea are taken). Otherwise, they stay pretty docile and create an alliance with Hungary, making the Balkans very stable.

    It's exactly the reason I almost always keep them as a vassal state.

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